Reading this board since a while now and owning an empeg since a even longer while I have to speak up - you guys are way to religious about that thing.

It's nice, it's great, there is no competition (yet) but if there would be one I would probably buy from them, they might stick closer to their promises then empeg does.

After owning both HW Version1 and 2 from the beginning I was the same excited as most of you have been in the beginning. That excitement has now really become way more relaxed, here is why:

EMPEG, once been very enthusiastic with their products and developments now have turned into Sonic Blue. I'm sure this was a very attractive move for them, looking at it from a financial point of view. But - look what happened. Basically, no major change in the software since then. And even before - I guess the guys were too buisy sorting out the contractual issues and getting their package set right.

Minor bugfixes, thats it. What is about all their promises - VR, Tuner, all the neat software features promised (EQ-to-song, more visuals, this and that, you name it) - history, over. It just will not happen.

Who is taking the bet ? I bet we will never see the tuner module for the version 2. I bet, we will never see VR for version 2. What will happen (if we all scream out loud enough) we will get offered again a discount on the new version 3 which will might come (or not) out one day. I would be happy if I loose, but I don't think that will happen.

Lets face it. From a mass production point, the number of empegs sold is - nothing. The product is way overpriced for a mass audience - and this is where a company makes money. This is how they get big. Not a few expensive units, many cheap units sold to every Dick, Tom and Harry, this is how you get maket share. So do you really think sonic blue will stick to that expensive hardware design ? I don't think so. Look, they creep up everywhere, cheap portable harddisk players with a $400 tag attached to them. One would need to ask themself how comes an empeg costs 5-8 and even more times as much ?!? And, how long to you think it takes the competition to come up with a _reliable_ car player in a low price segment ? What do you think next, would people buy. Where would the most development happen ? And, do you think sonic blue would still sell many of their empegs ?? NO! They will need to follow that trend. Linux! Who the hell needs linux on a car radio, other than geeks and people who think they need the cool-fsctor ? I can hear empeg say, yeh, it's so cool man, we have software decoder in there and all these cheapo players are using a chip - SO WHAT! People want to listen to music and not debug unix kernels. I'm very fine with a chips decoding MP3, I can't see a difference wether this is done by a chip or a software. Oh, I hear empeg again - whuuuu but you cannot upgrade to WMA which we signed up with M$ for. First I don't care, I havent asked for it (but I would appreciate you stick more to your promises than adding new features noone wants, but I'm sure M$ made up a nice package for you guys to support WMA, not to mention the free lunches and stuff) AND if I am in need for new decoding, I just buy a new unit which supports that. I gotta do that anyways, since past has shown that you don't get along for a long time with one hardware release.

What I'm saying is, it just doesn't pay off to invest much effort in e.g. developing a tuner module for this handful of empegs out there. I guess we will see a major hardware redesign which will e.g. result in an internal tuner. When empeg folks say this and that can't be done cause of this and that reason (RF, whatever) that doesn't mean other designers couldn't do it. Sonic blue is bigger and they just have more resources, developers, and I'm sure they will come up with cheaper ways for mass production, but this must result in a hardware redesign, this is most obvious, don't you think ?

Now I can hear empeg sream and yell that software is their business, not hardware. Fine, but that doesn't help me. I'm still lacking the tuner module, the VR, the software featuires announced. Since 8 month we were pomised the tuner module, the VR.

E I G H T M O N T H ! !

Even longer. This is rediculous. ANY other company would have been sued to death if they would treat their customers like that. But - here, we all look like stupid sheeps ignoring the kick in the butt. EMPEG, your all my friend. I'm really fed up with all the excuses I'm hearing from empeg. This is missing and that is missing, we can't do this. I would accept that for a month or two, but not 8!!

After all, I can still share some of the excitement (the empeg still does what it should do) but I'm on the other hand so disappointed.

IT SUCKS! Chris.

Minor bugfixes, thats it. What is about all their promises - VR, Tuner, all the neat software features promised (EQ-to-song, more visuals, this and that, you name it) - history, over. It just will not happen.

They always told some good reasons for not being able to ship a tuner-module.
Restructuring takes some time, too - don't forget about that. And I can live without EQ-to-song - I don't even really use the current EQ.

VR is a thing I'm with you. It's been promised for a very long time and nothing seems to happen here. (rob, hugo?)


TeeMcBee
Got my Mk2! # 080000143

As always, I'll answer this from my personal perspective. I'm sure you would prefer I was frank and honest than feed you some marketing line..

But - look what happened. Basically, no major change in the software since then.

Actually there have been so many changes we have not been able to release them bit-by-bit as we did with previous beta releases. Emplode has been re-written from scratch, the protocol has been updated, wendy filters written, smart shuffle written, tune stats implemented, new remote control support, completely new CODEC's including WMA, emplode searching from queries or UI, major enhancements to existing visuals and dozens of new ones, and a lot more stuff I've forgotten.

To accommodate such far reaching changes - especially the CODEC and protocol changes - we had to split the source tree. Therefore you can't get ANY of the new stuff until it's ALL ready.

A dozen alpha-testers (all of them active on this BBS) will be getting 1.1 within the next few days. When they're happy that we've found all the bugs, everyone gets it. Most of the features apply equally to Mk.1 and Mk.2 players. There will be no charge for the upgrade, even though we have an associated cost with the new CODEC's.

At least a dozen people on here were at Amersfoort in October, and saw many of these new features for themselves. We will also be at the California meet, showing an almost-public release. With a bit of luck we'll be able to show a tuner as well.

I guess the guys were too buisy sorting out the contractual issues and getting their package set right.

We have commercial people and lawyers for that sort of thing. Of our eight full time in-house programmers, only one was involved in acquisition negotiations.

I bet we will never see the tuner module for the version 2

Here's the AM/FM prototype that we built in October:



..and here's the schematic for the production prototype:



I'd take a picture of the unit itself but it's in Germany. It'll be sent to our manufacturing contractor in about a week, and then it's their job to them to get some built as soon as possible.

I'm sorry the tuner has taken so long, not least because I want to listen to the radio when I'm driving!

2. I bet, we will never see VR for version 2

Now that I have recently become responsible for managing software development at empeg, I will chase up the developers of this software (it's not in-house) and obtain some more realistic targets than their initial dates. We'll get 1.1 behind us first, though.

we will get offered again a discount on the new version 3 which will might come (or not) out one day

I hope there will be a Mk.3 in the future (and Mk.4, 5 and 6 for that matter), but currently we are set up to manufacture the Mk.2 in volume. All of our products build from a common code base (even the Receiver runs some car player code) and so previous platforms automatically get new features so long as they have the hardware to utilise it.

Linux! Who the hell needs linux on a car radio, other than geeks and people who think they need the cool-fsctor

You don't seem to realise that Linux isn't on there for your benefit - sure that's a nice side-effect - but it's there for OUR benefit. Every product we're developing for SONICblue to date (there are a number of them) runs Linux. Even the Receiver with 4Mb of RAM, 74Mhz processor and $299 price tag runs Linux. If you don't know why that's an advantage for us then fine - as a consumer why should you know, and why should you care?

I'm very fine with a chips decoding MP3, I can't see a difference wether this is done by a chip or a software

You're very short-sighted then. Even good portable players have software CODEC's now - and consumers are right to demand this. Why would we use a hardware decoder when an inexpensive ARM CPU has plenty of power to do it in software? You even get a CODEC for free with the Cirrus ARM.

I'm sure M$ made up a nice package for you guys to support WMA, not to mention the free lunches and stuff

I'm not sure what planet you're on, but Microsoft have never bought me lunch and we PAY THEM to use WMA. Why do we do so? Because soon a LOT of music will be retailed online and a large proportion of that will be in WMA format. The other reason (less applicable to the car player perhaps) is that low bitrate WMA's sound a LOT better than the equivalent MP3 versions. Microsoft may not be flavour of the month for many of our clients, but WMA isn't a bad format by any standards.

What I'm saying is, it just doesn't pay off to invest much effort in e.g. developing a tuner module for this handful of empegs out there

1) Soon there will be several thousand Mk.2's and I don't want those people after our blood!
2) The effort isn't all that great - the delays have been down to other factors. We've had a working AM/FM tuner since October.

I guess we will see a major hardware redesign which will e.g. result in an internal tuner

Umm.. you do know that we moved AWAY from an internal tuner (Mk.1) don't you? You can't do AM inside the case, and you can't upgrade to new formats. Oh, did I mention that our tuner bus is compatible with XM receiver protocols?

When empeg folks say this and that can't be done cause of this and that reason (RF, whatever) that doesn't mean other designers couldn't do it

Ah, you have been listening! But missing the point totally. Check out the inventory for the Clarion AutoPC sometime (you can view it at Crutchfield's online catalogue). Pay particular attention to the EXTERNAL components that come with the package. I guess Clarion must be as incompetent as us.

ANY other company would have been sued to death if they would treat their customers like that. But - here, we all look like stupid sheeps ignoring the kick in the butt

Could it possibly be that the majority of our customers recognise that this happens sometimes - even with much larger companies than empeg - but that the other features of the product have made the inconvenience tolerable? Yes, it's a lousy situation, which I'm sick of and embarrassed about. That doesn't mean we've lied to you, and it doesn't mean that our enthusiastic clients are sheep (stupid or otherwise).

One thing that can be said for most owners on this BBS is that they put their name behind their comments; they don't create a new account from which to post a flame.

Rob

Now that is an answer!
I love to see the Empeg folks defend their position with cold, hard facts, plus drop a few surprises in too!

Way to go Rob, I am sure everyone else here feels the same way you do, but would have been unable to generate such a scathing response!

Oh, glad to see v1.1 is starting to get tested. Thanks!

When I meet you, I will shake your hand!
Cheers

Smoker_Man
#080000449 MkII - 36Gb Blue

Preach it, brotha!!

DiGNAN

im with you man. thats teh one big critism i have of this, its sounds like a religon. and teh other critism i have is also E I G H T M O N T H is way to long to half to wait 4 a tunr.

Rex

I'm just trying to work out if this is irony or not..

Rob

I was going to comment on each of the grammatical, structural, typographical and other stupid mistakes in your mail, but I counted to fifty before I decided not to bother wasting the energy.

I was going to answer your points with reasoned and considered arguments, but I read several of your blinkered, incorrect and pompous comments and decided that given the cerebral energy you have demonstrably failed to expend on the matter my efforts would be completely wasted.

I was going to.... Nah. I can't be bothered.

Nick.

PS I love the signature - "It sucks Chris". What does, and did we really want to know this?

--
18Gb blue (now AR red) - s/n 080000299 (original queue position 8724)

Mr. critism,

So I guess you won't be coming to the Northern California empeg meeting???

;-)

- Jon

PS I love the signature - "It sucks Chris". What does, and did we really want to know this?

I would guess that anyone called Chris may have a vested interest.

Rob

It's spelled criticism - at least get the the spelling right even if the rest of your post is incorrect. Maybe part of the reason the tuner is late is that we begged for a FM/AM tuner rather than just an FM only one. Thanks for the info Rob.

Sean

I want to play!

I guess we'll never see Rob's dirty laundry!
I guess we'll never see Hugo first thing in the the morning!
I guess we'll never see the secret project empeg is working on!

Rob? care to post some pictures again?

-D


---
reg. #10798 - blue 40gig MK2 #764

No, I think he was serious...

Hey, Rob! You've been promoted!

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

It does also imply that anyone posting in the near future with a different ID and the name "Chris" is sure going to come under some grammatical scrutiny!

Tell me, what is it about tuners that raises such religious fervour? I mean, since I figured out how to use it and fixed the antenna impedance mismatch, I have only used it a few times - mainly 'cos I can choose my own music on the player.

I am developing a theory that the word "tuner" on this BBS is in fact invisible (or at least the same colour as the background) when posted by any member of the empeg team. Hence, all postings regarding the reasons for the delay have disappeared and have never been read by anyone on this board. This means that every newbie on this board immediately posts (word for word) "When is the tuner module ready?" or "Is there any progress on the tuner module?", as if this was still the launch day of the Mk 2 (surely somebody has carried out a statistical analysis of the frequency of repetition of this request on the board and can post a graphic reflecting some important trend?).

In fact, that statement implies that there must be a discontinuity in the time continuum when you log on to this board, an effect to which I can regularly attest ("Hell, it's 3 AM again!"). This means that tommorrow is, in fact yesterday, and the Mk1 has only just been launched, so you already have the tuner in your head unit. Everybody Happy Now?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

My head hurts. Mommy, make the bad man stop.

___________
Tony Fabris

You wouldn't want to see either of the first two, and the third... is so secret not even we know about it!

Rob

So, when's the tuner going to be ready?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bill B.
Mk.2 SN 080000183 - 38 GB / Green

I was going to comment on the grammar and spelling and such, but I guess I was being nice in giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he was from a non English-speaking nation. Oh well.

I guess that this guy shows that some of the owners still don't get it.

Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc...

DiGNAN

Rob,

As always, thanks for your deliberate response. I think perhaps that "Chris" had one too many bottles of Angst Lager. Sounded like every dark, anxious thought any owner might ever have rolled up into one big ball. I suppose if you hang out in your basement reading a stack of books about how the Bavarian Iluminati manipulated Woodrow Wilson through Colonel House, this is the result.

Interesting side note about XM. I looked at their Web site. I couldn't tell how they enforce their license/fees for customers. If I wanted XM in car, home and boat, would I need to pay monthly fees for 3 adapters? I keep thinking about getting DMX for this kind of service, but don't want to pay for the rest of the cable service. Plus, portable it ain't!

In the tuner obsession department, can you perhaps rattle off the dimensions of the production unit, the length of the loom attachment, and how the antenna attaches (a plug on one surface?, another cable/tail?). I am dying to finish up the final installation panel (in a pretty cramped space) on my boat but I am reluctant to make final cuts into that spendy teak without having all placement stuff figured out (right now, the Empeg sled is in an ugly plywood temporary panel with my old Kenwood hanging out the side to provide FM to the Empeg. If I couldn't listen to Car Talk while doing boat work, Saturdays just wouldn't be the same. ).

Thanks,

Jim

If I couldn't listen to Car Talk while doing boat work, Saturdays just wouldn't be the same. ).

I have to agree with you there: Car Talk is probably the only compelling reason I'd need a tuner in my car at all.

Rob or Hugo, have you ever heard Car Talk?

___________
Tony Fabris

Nope, never heard of car talk.

As for the dimensions, etc - I'll give them to you when I have them. The antenna connector is a euro-style (takes the short plugs, like blaupunkt radios - not the long ones. Converters are very easy to find) and it's mounted on the box itself.

Hugo

Yes the original post was a bit "angst-ridden", but I think that some valid concerns were brought up and that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Besides, it allows empeg to explain things a bit that they might not otherwise think are worth talking about.

About XM customer licensing.... I imagine it would be like DirecTV (since DirecTV's parent company Hughes Network Systems has invested heavily into XM Radio). For example, if you pay full price for one subsciption (for the TV in the living room) you can activate additional TV's for $5 a month in the same house.

12gig Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

See http://cartalk.cars.com/Radio/ for more info on this...

Tell me, what is it about tuners that raises such religious fervour? I mean, since I figured out how to use it and fixed the antenna impedance mismatch, I have only used it a few times - mainly 'cos I can choose my own music on the player.

Well, I guess its just an assumed thing that a car stereo head unit can do. A lot of people use it for traffic reports on the morning commute, or listen to morning shows (Don and Mike rule!).. and occasionally even I don't feel like playing DJ for myself, so I'd rather just let someone off DC101 do it.

I can't count the number of times I've shown my empeg to someone and they're like "Wait... you paid a grand for a stereo and it doesn't have FM???". (Second only to the no-CD-player comment, but I disregard those. ;)

Anyway, I wouldn't say we've gotten too religious on this BBS... we all just really love (empegisgod) our empegs!

(O|||||O)

SE_Sport_Driver wrote:
> Yes the original post was a bit "angst-ridden", but I think that some
> valid concerns were brought up and that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> Besides, it allows empeg to explain things a bit that they might not otherwise
> think are worth talking about.

I agree with you re: some valid concerns and that one result is that it can lead to more detailed (welcome) explanations. Valid concerns? Well, who among us hasn't (after an ill-advised decision to nab that last slice of pepperoni) awoken in a cold sweat at 2 A.M. asking "What will the SONICBlue acquisition mean?" or "Is it possible that the Mk2 tuner could get deep-sixed??". Thankfully, for me anyway, I then remember that Hugo, Rob and crew are not across the lake in Redmond swilling some expensive single-malt scotch, but are in fact still hard at work on the stuff we care about. I fall back asleep.

I just think that some of his post/rant -- wining and dining with MS, getting distracted by acquisition -- were way over the top and without any substantive basis. He should vent his feelings more regularly rather than let them build up like this!

Part of my interest in the XM radio stuff is: could I leave room in the boat panel and in the home "sled box" I'm building to plug in an XM module -- move it around. If it's designed for car use I assume the antenna and module will be small. Another "I wonder...": I saw somewhere where someone had hacked an HTML parser that piped DMX playlist/song data to a PC. Wonder how XM will present song info...

Car Talk, Hugo? Well, it's a long running call-in show where two pun-filled brothers insult their callers in a very endearing fashion while occasionally answering a question about cars. Years ago it was a local-only show on WBUR when the brothers ran a do-it-yourself garage in Cambridge, Mass. (in the pre-computer automotive era) and most of the calls were from folks actually working on their cars and the show was downright fascinating. The garage is no longer DIY, the show now sometimes seems like an automotive marriage counselor ("My husband wants to buy a Suburban, but I want a New Beetle..."), and some folks find the brothers annoying (an old friend of mine went to high school with them in Cambridge and says they are like that *all the time*), but I still find it worthwhile.

The radio landscape in the U.S. is pretty bleak, but I still listen to a fair amount. The local alter-alternative station, KCMU, occasionally helps me find a bit of new music, and NPR, Car Talk, etc. are good background while doing boat work. Now, if KUOW would bring back Afro-Pop Worldwide (It provided the perfect soundtrack for varnishing on a sunny day. Sniff...)

Jim
90 GB Mk III Fuchsia

In describing Car Talk for Hugo, you neglected to mention how completely cool and funny the show is. Clearly, it's the best thing on U.S. radio today, and it's the only reason I want a tuner attached to the Mark2.

Hugo and Rob, if you do manage to make it over here in March, see if you can have somebody help you tune in Car Talk on Saturday morning before the meet. It's syndicated nationwide on several National Public Radio stations, and you should be able to catch an episode at 10am Pacific time on at least a couple of Bay Area stations. It's worth going out of your way to hear it.

___________
Tony Fabris

Dude!! Now I really say welcome to the area! Allready listening to Don and Mike and DC101! Those exact things are all I listen to on radio! It would be cool to hear that on the empeg.

Damn I wish I could get Don and Mike down in Williamsburg. It's not carried on any stations down here as far as I know. DC101 used to stream their broadcast over their website which was AWESOME, but it doesn't work anymore...suck.

Oh well. And um...yeah...a tuner would be nice.

Any updates on that Rob?

DiGNAN

Are you in college DigNAN17? Are you attending william and mary? Williamsburg is cool except for all the tourons that go through there.

Sean

Tony,

You're right. I should have said "cool and funny". It still is. I just miss the old days when half of a show might be consumed by a single problem - some wandering meditation on Volvo fuel injection woes or whatever. Best thing on U.S. radio today? You may well be right. I'm not sure this says good things about U.S. radio! If it's the *only* reason you want a tuner, your local dial must be even worse than mine!

If Hugo and Rob can't tune in while in U.S., they can listen to past Car Talk shows from the URL posted here.

NPR ran a short news feature this week about a group of college students in the UK who tune in religiously from the common room in their dormitory to watch the proceedings of some city council in Nebraska over the Internet -- their daily soap opera. Assuming this is what passes for General Hospital in the UK, I hesitate to predict what Rob and Hugo will make of Car Talk!

Jim

Yeah, I'm in Williamsburg, going to W&M. And I know all to well what you mean about the tourists. We have a particular intersection, right in the middle of the old part of the city (where the Colonial stuff ends and the college begins), that we call "confusion corner". nobody understands how it works! ARGH!

Anyway, glad you like the area. I love it, it's beautiful almost all the time (the past 2 days have been clear blue skies at about 65 degrees - pretty good for February).

DiGNAN