#264446 - 05/09/2005 22:04
A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Wheee! It's political posting day for Dylan.
Here is an article in the New Yorker magazine about Patrick Henry college which is just down the road from where I live. This is the school's mission statement:
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The Mission of Patrick Henry College is to prepare Christian men and women who will lead our nation and shape our culture with timeless biblical values and fidelity to the spirit of the American founding.
Two years ago I moved from the suburbs to a more rural part of Virginia. It's home school central out here. (Patrick Henry is something like 85% home schooled kids.) For those of you unaware, the US requires education until age 16 but parents are allowed to educate their kids at home if they choose. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but around here this is done by Evangelical Christians who don't want their kids taught those new fangled ideas like evolution. It's also largely unregulated.
I spend quite a bit of time hanging out in a coffee shop in town that is also the hang out spot for the Patrick Henry kids. This coffee shop is run by an Evangelical Christian and his staff is almost entirely comprised of home schooled teenagers or Patrick Henry students. The owner and staff are exceptionally friendly and I've spent a lot of time chatting with them.
What I've learned is that these kids tend to be well educated, disciplined and articulate. They have kindness in their hearts and truly believe that forcing their particular brand of values on the world is an act of love. They also have no concept of the world beyond their very white and Christian social circles. They can't even concieve of why someone would choose to live differently then them. And they think the world would be a much better place if everyone was like them. That's the scary part. What I can't reconcile is how what they perceive as love for their fellow man is undeniably bigotry to me.
I'm a believer in public schools. Yes, they are screwed up in so many ways. But it's a melting pot of different cultures and I think the education that comes from that exposure is equally as important as the book learnin'.
Why am I writing this? I don't know. The Patrick Henry kids are back in school so I'm seeing them again and it's on my mind. This is a culture I hadn't really seen until I moved out here and it's been quite interesting for this liberal athiest.
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#264447 - 05/09/2005 22:55
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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They have kindness in their hearts and truly believe that forcing their particular brand of values on the world is an act of love.
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What I can't reconcile is how what they perceive as love for their fellow man is undeniably bigotry to me.
What exactly do these people do that you consider bigotry? Is it bigotry to believe that your set of values is better than someone else's? Is it bigotry to fight for the value you believe in politically?
Because I don't see either of those two things as characteristics a bigot. Rather, that is how the process work\s. Most people do believe their moral values are superior to others. I see it all the time on this very BBS, and yet I happen to believe this is one of the most tolerant group of people that I've run into. The laws the govern us are decided by values, and not ones with which we all necessarily agree.
The way I see bigotry is closly related to intolerence, and believing that you are right and someone else is wrong is not intolerant. We all make those value judgements, and most of us (here at least) are pretty vocal about those judgements.
Now if a person believes he or she can mistreat another human being because of a different value, THAT is being a bigot and intolerent. Is this the kind of behavior you are witnessing, or is it that you don't agree with their moral values? There are plenty of value based laws that I don't agree with that come from the liberal side, but I don't call the people who've supported them intolerant or bigots. I think these are misguided or misinformed, but those who support such laws aren't doing anything to me personally other than trying to get the laws passed that they think will best impact this country. And this is all I see conservative Christians doing, but when they do it it gets labeld as intolerent and bigoted.
If trying to advance your values through the system is bigotry, then we are truly a country of bigots, every single one of us.
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I can't speak for the rest of the country, but around here this is done by Evangelical Christians who don't want their kids taught those new fangled ideas like evolution. It's also largely unregulated.
Yes, well why should the government regulate it? They aren't paying for it. If a parent is willing to take the time and responsibility to educate his or her child, what does it matter if they are teaching what you or I want them to learn? Personally I'm not into home schooling, one reason is that I agree about school being a social experience, but we'll likely be considering a private, Christian school. But that is the personal choice of my wife and I. Why should the government tell us how to raise our children? The public schools are a mess, and frankly I believe that knowledge of the Creator is as an important aspect to education as any other. For me it's not about evolution- it's about God being a context for everything that I (and presumably my children) do. And no, you won't be paying for our children's education. Rather, I'll be paying twice, once for an education my children won't use and again for the one they will.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264448 - 05/09/2005 23:01
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Yes, well why should the government regulate it
The governments in most (all?) civilised countries do regulate schooling, for the well being of the pre-16 children. As a way of ensuring they are actually taught to spell and add, and whatever else the government requires. So that the child will be able to interact with society when he/she/it eventually emerges from their protective cocoon.
That's why.
But there's still lots of play for specific slants to what is taught, and I suppose that's what is of concern to the original poster here.
Cheers
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#264449 - 05/09/2005 23:38
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
The governments in most (all?) civilised countries do regulate schooling, for the well being of the pre-16 children. As a way of ensuring they are actually taught to spell and add, and whatever else the government requires. So that the child will be able to interact with society when he/she/it eventually emerges from their protective cocoon.
That's why.
Actually, I'm not sure that's quite right, though I guess motivations can get murky. But I figured the reason we have a public education system is because a country with educated citizens is going to be stronger than one without. So public shool is not really for the welfare of the children specifically, but for the country and its future. Following this logic, since home schooling tends to lead to very well educated people, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to regulate it. If people were taking their kids of out school to educate them at home and they turned out to be complete idiots, then it'd be a different question altogether.
But I really didn't mean to imply there should be NO regulation, only that it should be very light as to the content of what is being taught.
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But there's still lots of play for specific slants to what is taught, and I suppose that's what is of concern to the original poster here.
Well yes, and that whats what I was getting at. There should be a lot of play for specific slants. What a person believes about the world shapes who he or she becomes, and much of this is taught in school. And make to mistake, school reaches far beyond just learning to spell and add. There are definitely patterns of thinking emphasized in a public school that are not consistent with what I believe. This is no great conspiracy- at certain points a decision has to be made about what to teach, and sometimes the decision doesn't go my way. But as a parent, it seems to me that I should have the freedom to teach my children in the way of my beliefs, not just what society has agreed upon. This can be done by explaining to my children that not everything they are taught in school is necessarily correct (which is the avenue my parents took) and constantly evaluating what their teachers are telling them, or by putting my children in a private school or home schooling. Of course, even in a private school there's going to be some parent regulation over what is being learned by the child, and that's a good thing. Parents SHOULD be that invovled and children do need to learn that there are times to question even what teachers tell them.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264450 - 06/09/2005 00:36
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. It's the intolerace that crosses the line. Quote:
Now if a person believes he or she can mistreat another human being because of a different value, THAT is being a bigot and intolerent.
Discriminating against homosexuals by not giving them the same civil rights of partnership is mistreating another human being. The only time I've gotten in an unpleasant confrontation in this coffee shop was over this issue. That was the day I attached the bigot label to the owner of the coffee shop. BTW, he and I are very friendly and have a mutual respect for each other. He is a loving and wise man. But he's a bigot by the definition of the word. I have a hard time reconciling that.
He tried to explain it to me once. It has to do with the "we're all sinners" concept. He's a sinner. Homosexuals are sinners. He claims he doesn't feel superior to them. Yet, he still wants to pass laws that subjugate them. I don't get it. Of all the Christian concepts, the one I grok the least is the idea that human beings are all scumbags who must be saved. I think human beings are marvelous creatures and it's humanity that deserves worship.
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If trying to advance your values through the system is bigotry, then we are truly a country of bigots, every single one of us.
It depends on whether your values are ones of intolerance and oppression.
As for regulating home schooling, I agree with mlord's initial statement. I was surprised that home schoolers aren't required to pass the same basic aptitude tests I did to graduate high school. Ironically, it's these sort of standardized tests that are foundation of Bush's education laws.
I have no issue with the "slant". Parents have the right to teach their children the values they believe are important. I believe the state has an obligation only to insure the kids are learning a set of necessary skills.
Also, some states will subsidize home schoolers. The one I know of in particular is Pennsylvania. I don't know the subtlties of the laws but I have friends who work for www.k12.com and PA will pay the K12.com tuition for home schoolers.
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#264451 - 06/09/2005 00:41
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Such as bigotry against Christians? I know it's politically correct, but it's still bigotry. Quote:
it's these sort of standardized tests that are foundation of Bush's education laws.
I wasn't aware that Bush is also a member of Congress and has started writing laws.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#264452 - 06/09/2005 00:49
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
Such as bigotry against Christians? I know it's politically correct, but it's still bigotry.
Interesting point. I'm intolerant of those who are intolerant. I don't know what that makes me.... I guess I draw the line at having an opinion vs. forcing an action. I am tolerant of you having any opinion you want of me. I'm not tolerant of you telling me what actions I can take that don't directly harm others.
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it's these sort of standardized tests that are foundation of Bush's education laws.
I wasn't aware that Bush is also a member of Congress and has started writing laws.
Let's not be naive. You don't think Bush's administration had a huge impact on that law? Bush took credit for that program during his campaigning so I think my statement was fair.
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#264453 - 06/09/2005 01:08
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Discriminating against homosexuals by not giving them the same civil rights of partnership is mistreating another human being
This is a pretty complex issue here- I do see your point but I think that it is still not quite intolerence. I could say the same about abortion- I think there are tons of innocent unborn children who are being mistreated; however, I don't think that pro-choicers are intolerent. I think they are wrong in their assesment of what constitutes human life.
I think the issue of homosexual marriage comes back to a place where state and church are not quite as seperate as they should be. People of faith view marriage as being ordained and defined by God; other people do not. The state has long upheld this teaching of the church, which it ought not to have done. This didn't provide a practical problem for the most part until recently, but now the question is being raised as to why the state should support the churchs definition of marriage. I'll agree that it is unfair for the state to define marriage in a way that excludes the homosexual community, but It seems equally wrong to me that the state would deny the churchs definition as well. Unfortunatly, we can't have both. Personally I'd rather can the concept of legal marriage altogehter, but that simply isn't going to happen. So what we're left with is a question where someone is going to be told that they are wrong, by the state. There is no good answer for this question. Civil Unions are about the best compamise, but it seems to be a solution almost everyone finds unacceptable.
But going back to your statement, you say that for someone to say that marriage is between a man and a woman only means he or she is a bigot because of the consequences to a homosexual. So say we broaden the definition of marriage to be more inclusive- what about polyamarous relationships? I know some mormans who would like to be able to marry multiple wives. So now should we extend the definition of marriage to include their viewpoint as well? Or if we do not, are we then bigots?
Now personally, I'm in favor of civil unions- I don't know what your friend at the coffee shop would say. In fact, what I really think is that they should ALL be civil unions and let "marriage" fall out of the governments territory. However, as long as government is going to be deciding what is and is not a marriage, I guess I'm left with voting what I believe. I feel that is consistent with the spirit of this nation as well as my faith.
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I think human beings are marvelous creatures and it's humanity that deserves worship.
Ah, well this is definitly the big point of contention. Almost every point of view I have comes from the idea that we are all fallen sinners in need of grace. My observation of people in the world has bourn this out- we do not seem to be a glorious people to me, but rather greedy, hurtful, selfish, and violent.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264454 - 06/09/2005 01:15
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I was surprised that home schoolers aren't required to pass the same basic aptitude tests I did to graduate high school.
I don't have any statistics at hand, but EVERY homeschooler I've ever met has been a cut above the average individual as far as knowledge and education goes. I think tests are not required because they are not generally needed.
I think there are more carrots and sticks in place for the public schools because of the problems there. You don't need a carrot or stick to force a parent to do their best to educate their child (once they've made the personal commitment to do so). Underpaid teachers are a different story. Not that I'm a big fan of standardized tests anyway, but that's another post.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264455 - 06/09/2005 01:28
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I guess I draw the line at having an opinion vs. forcing an action.
The thing is, though, that any political opinion does have an action. Like if we decide that we value people's basic needs, so we take money from the rich and give it to poor who cannot sustain themselves. What if some people don't agree, though, and think that they should be entitled to do what they want with their money. In fact, what if their belief system tells them that by being merciful they are hurting people (Ayn Rand, anyone?) We have now taken harmful action against these people person by taking their money- are we who have supported such a tax bigots? It's not good enough to call these people stingy or selfish. What makes one person's definition of what is good better than someone elses? At some point, we decide what the law is and someone loses. In the cases of our tax law, the unwilling tax payer must give up a porition of his or her earned income because we have agreed collectively that this is the moral and right thing to do.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264456 - 06/09/2005 01:33
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Jeff, we agree about civil unions vs. marriage. I would be thrilled if civil unions were the only thing sanctioned by the legal system and the definition of marriage was up to the individuals. But, like you said, it's not practical to seperate them in the near term and when push comes to shove I will vote my beliefs which are driven by fairness to all. I think equal rights for all beliefs is the tenet on which this country is founded. Quote:
So say we broaden the definition of marriage to be more inclusive- what about polyamarous relationships? I know some mormans who would like to be able to marry multiple wives. So now should we extend the definition of marriage to include their viewpoint as well? Or if we do not, are we then bigots?
I absolutely believe poligamy should be legal if all parties are consenting. And, yes, I believe we are bigots if we don't extend legal rights to those who choose that life.
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Almost every point of view I have comes from the idea that we are all fallen sinners in need of grace.
Does this mean you can't love yourself? (That's an honest question. I'm not laying a trap.)
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#264457 - 06/09/2005 01:38
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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This is a pretty complex issue here- I do see your point but I think that it is still not quite intolerence.
Jeff, perhaps I am diverting this thread a little but so be it.....
If you want some of us (me?) to attend to your opinion on things like ho-mo-sex-u-al-i-ty, I think you are going to have to first post and tell us how things went at your dinner with Dan (djc).
If you haven't been able to schedule this yet, please let us know when you do and how it went.
Zero cost to you, right? Just a few minutes of your time.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#264458 - 06/09/2005 02:07
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Assuming that all people who are Christians have certain beliefs (other than those that define Christianity which is basically limited to the belief that Christ died for our sins) is Prejudice. For example, you might assume that because I am Christian I don't believe in evolution. Or that all Mexicans are lazy or that all Irish are drunks. Each is about as accurate (not at all). Again, I'm well aware that this is a politically correct viewpoint, and gets many nods from my liberal friends, but it is inaccurate and it is prejudice. The application of this, for instance to distrust all Christians or oppose any Christian from public office, is bigotry based on prejudice. Kind of like when many people opposed JFK from being President because they thought, as a Catholic, he'd be taking orders from the Vatican. Interesting how the movement that aims to mimic this behavior finds a home at his old political party. The simple fact is that most action taken by politicians are a result of that person's idiology. Whether that idiology is extreme liberalism (free markets are bad, big government is better than limited government, etc, etc) or faith in God (a woman's right to her body does not trump an unborn child's right to live because all human life is created in the image of God), it's still the driving factor in most behavior. Even an anarchist follows the idiology of anarchy. Based on what viewpoint people think is most like their own, people vote for a person so that they can act within the law in a way that makes sense to that particular idiology. Don't get me wrong, I know there are some Christian people out there that do hold the views you are so upset about, but don't paint with too broad of a brush. It wouldn't be right for me to assume you distrust Christians so you must be a liberal and therefore you support the torching of my SUV or the founding papers of the USA to be banned because they refer to a God. Maybe if you told me you were a member of the ACLU that'd be fitting, but not the simple admission of being a liberal. 
_________________________
Brad B.
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#264460 - 06/09/2005 05:05
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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If you want some of us (me?) to attend to your opinion on things like ho-mo-sex-u-al-i-ty, I think you are going to have to first post and tell us how things went at your dinner with Dan (djc).
Unfortunately it never happened. In that thread, Dan essentially said that he was trying to drive home that there are people behind these ideas that we are arguing- they aren't just notions without consequence. I agree with that completely, and would've met (and would still meet), but the idea seemed to get dropped.
Honestly, though, I'm not trying to argue my beliefs about homosexulaity here. I went into all of that (which I know we've all heard before) to try and explain where the issues are and this isn't a simple case of Christians hating homosexuals.
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Zero cost to you, right? Just a few minutes of your time.
If Dan still wants to meet, I'm available. And if I gave him the impression that I was less than interested, I apologize. LIke I said, I got the feeling that he'd made his point and did not wish to persue this any longer.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264461 - 06/09/2005 05:17
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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But, like you said, it's not practical to seperate them in the near term and when push comes to shove I will vote my beliefs which are driven by fairness to all.
Yes, when push comes to shove, we all vote our beliefs. That's how the system was set up, and I don't personally believe that doing so is bigotry. Our beliefs have consequences, and if enough people believe the wrong/right thing, that is what is going to happen.
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I absolutely believe poligamy should be legal if all parties are consenting. And, yes, I believe we are bigots if we don't extend legal rights to those who choose that life.
Well, were not talking about making poligamy legal here (is it illegal?) We're talking about re-defining marriage to include more than two people. Don't know what effect that would have on our tax code, but it seems to me this would not be an easy change to make and apply the law fairly.
And then, once marriage can be definined so flexibly where basically any relationship can be considered a marriage, how to you regulate it? What if two rommates decide to get "married" in order to get a tax break. What about a whole fraternity? The problem with this is that the idea of state sanctioned marriage starts really falling apart because it was never designed to fit these kinds of structures.
But let me be completely clear on this- people can do what they want and I'm not going to stand in their way. People can get married and live together in whatever configuration they feel fits. It's when the state gets invovled and starts sanctioning what is and what isn't marriage that I have a problem.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264462 - 06/09/2005 05:21
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Does this mean you can't love yourself? (That's an honest question. I'm not laying a trap.)
No trap. In fact, I don't love myself. I feel that I am a sinner in need of daily mercy. However, I believe that God loves me so incredibly much that He died on the cross for me. So do I feel that I have worth? I do, but it does not come from myself, it comes from the love of God.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264463 - 06/09/2005 05:45
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Yes, is it allowable to be intolerant of radically intolerants?
This questions depends on how you define "intolerant". In today's world this word, tolerance tends to mean "value all beliefs equally", in which case you create a paradox. Under this definition, those who don't value tolerance have a lesser belief to those who do, and so to be truly tolerent you must be intolerent.
However, if you define tolerence as "valuing people equally, regardless of their ideas", then it is a different question. If people are mistreating others who disagree with them and you do not tolerate this, you are not being intolerent of their beliefs, but rather their actions, which is perfectly acceptable. When someone has a different idea from yourself, you are free to think it foolish and silly, as long as you respect the person.
Though most people who use the word "intolerant" use the first definition, more often than not on this BBS it seems people adhere to the second (which you might gather that I favor). In fact, based on his own clarifications, it seemed to me that Dylan only considers people intolerent when they are taking actions of mistreating others- a violation of the second definition of tolerance. So I think he is being consistent, at least in his perceptions.
Where I disagree is that I think that the issue of homosexual marriage is not a simple question of Christians trying to impose their beliefs on others in a hurtful way (which would be intolerant). Rather, Christians are trying to defend a closely held belief from being re-defined by the state, which is an over stepping of the state's boundries. Later Dylan admitted that given this difficult (and basically unresolvabale) issue, he'd vote his values- which is all that the Christians accused of bigotry are doing. They are not (unless I am mistaken), calling homosexuals names, spaking ill of them, or driving around looking for homosexuals that they can beat up. There is plenty of that in and out of the church, and it is completely reprehensible (and the very definition of bigotry), but these are not the actions of the ones he is calling bigots.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264464 - 06/09/2005 07:46
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Of course, even in a private school there's going to be some parent regulation over what is being learned by the child, and that's a good thing. Parents SHOULD be that invovled and children do need to learn that there are times to question even what teachers tell them.
Yes, and this is sort-of the crux of the unease I feel about home-schooling, especially home-schooling as motivated by a particular religious allegiance. Children also need to learn (in general, maybe not so much in your case) that there are times to question even what their parents tell them. The sorts of parents who don't even want their child exposed to humanism, Islam, Buddhism, atheism and so on until the child is sure in his or her Christianity, strike me as being terrified that their religion isn't good enough to win out in a free and informed decision on the child's part.
Even from a Christian point of view, which would God rather have: an adherent-by-default, or an adherent-by-choice?
Peter
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#264465 - 06/09/2005 08:23
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
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Of course, even in a private school there's going to be some parent regulation over what is being learned by the child, and that's a good thing. Parents SHOULD be that invovled and children do need to learn that there are times to question even what teachers tell them.
Yes, and this is sort-of the crux of the unease I feel about home-schooling, especially home-schooling as motivated by a particular religious allegiance. Children also need to learn (in general, maybe not so much in your case) that there are times to question even what their parents tell them. The sorts of parents who don't even want their child exposed to humanism, Islam, Buddhism, atheism and so on until the child is sure in his or her Christianity, strike me as being terrified that their religion isn't good enough to win out in a free and informed decision on the child's part.
Even from a Christian point of view, which would God rather have: an adherent-by-default, or an adherent-by-choice?
From a muslim viewpoint I'd agree with all of that.
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#264466 - 06/09/2005 11:07
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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I don't have any statistics at hand, but EVERY homeschooler I've ever met has been a cut above the average individual as far as knowledge and education goes. I think tests are not required because they are not generally needed.
And each of us is also a far better driver than the average road idiot, too.
And each of us has a higher IQ than the average person on the street.
Etc..
Lots of nice subjective things that we just know to be true, or at least they are for me
No need for some embarrassing unbiased testing to objectively compare me against the average slob..
Right?
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#264467 - 06/09/2005 12:59
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Exactly. And part of education is knowledge of what other people think and confronting opinions opposing your own. Assuming that Dylan's correct in his assessment that the college kids he refers to have so little experience with cultures other than their own as to not be able to comprehend them, those kids have been poorly educated. That doesn't mean that they have to agree with those other cultures (in fact, it may mean that they would disagree with them even more than they do by default now), but the notion that they have no comprehension of them is frightening. I have had more than my fair share of experience with provincials of this type, ranging from people who are otherwise idiots to people who are otherwise brilliant, and they are, one and all, frightening people.
Many Christians say a faith untested is no faith at all. I'd argue that any belief system, religious, philosophical, or political, untested, is no belief at all.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264468 - 06/09/2005 15:54
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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The sorts of parents who don't even want their child exposed to humanism, Islam, Buddhism, atheism and so on until the child is sure in his or her Christianity, strike me as being terrified that their religion isn't good enough to win out in a free and informed decision on the child's part.
Go anywhere in the world and this is most likely the case. Take Islam, for example. The general Islamic world-view is just as guilty of the above (not exposing a child to outside sources until firmly grounded in one's faith). At least in this situation, it's the parent's free will choice rather than one dictated by the government.
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#264469 - 06/09/2005 16:03
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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The general Islamic world-view is just as guilty of the above (not exposing a child to outside sources until firmly grounded in one's faith).
Undoubtedly, a sad state of affairs.
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#264470 - 06/09/2005 17:45
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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LIke I said, I got the feeling that he'd made his point and did not wish to persue this any longer.
I really did not get that impression but I am just a bystander and I could be wrong. I just thought his offer was very remarkable, deserved to be accepted, and *would* as a by-product have made it easier to listen to your opinions in this realm.
Who knows what conditions might have changed since those discussions. Having said what I had on my mind, I'll leave this to the principals.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#264471 - 06/09/2005 17:48
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Cybjorg]
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addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
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At what point do you expose the child to other religions, and, does it make sense to? Should a 10 year old be given a full explanation of the 3 major religions, and then a quick overview of the 15 bajillion other religions so that from there he/she can make an informed decision? Or is the parents right to choose to bring their child up in faith of their choice, the one that has worked best for them and which they would like to extend to their offspring.
I have no problem with children/teenagers being exposed to other world religions, because I hope to feel, as a parent, that I will have done my job in convincing him/her that my religion (Islam in my case) is the way to go. If I've done my part, then he/she won't be particularly interested in turrning Christian or Buddhist or christian scientist.
I guess I'm having trouble understanding the alternative to raising a child in one's own faith. Give them all the options right off the bat?
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#264472 - 06/09/2005 17:51
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I really did not get that impression but I am just a bystander and I could be wrong. I just thought his offer was very remarkable, deserved to be accepted, and *would* as a by-product have made it easier to listen to your opinions in this realm.
Well I will follow up, then, and see what he wants to do. I thought I'd made it clear that I was interested, but I don't remember the exact course of events. It is probably true that I could have persued it a little more actively than I did.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264473 - 06/09/2005 18:03
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Lots of nice subjective things that we just know to be true, or at least they are for me
I'm not sure what you're driving at. I wasn't homeschooled so my perceptions are not based on my own experience but others that I've seen.
And to be completely honest, I've seen negatives with homeschooling. While every homeschooler I've met seems to be a cut above in the education department, I've seen many who's social skills have suffered greatly. My wife has also observed this so there's no way that we would homeschool. I say this to emphasize the point that I have no reason to view homeschooling more positively or to stack the deck in favor of homeschooling. I think there are problems, they just aren't related to the educational value.
The route I've seen that has really impressed me is when children spend the formative years in a private school (not homeschool) but then trasition to public school for High School. This seems to give teenagers the right opportunities to learn about opposing viewpoints at the time they really begin to question things.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264474 - 06/09/2005 18:09
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I guess I'm having trouble understanding the alternative to raising a child in one's own faith. Give them all the options right off the bat?
Well, the answer we get from the public school system is to try and educate a child in a religiously neutral environment. Unfortunately, there are decisions that are going to be made an philosophies that are going to be emphasized- you can't escape these things in education. And when you cannot mention or talk about any specific religion you end up with tacet athiesm, which makes me uncomfortable. Not that I think emphasizing Christianty or any other faith is the right answer either. This is one problem I have with public schools in general and why we will likely send our children to a private, Christian school for the first couple of years.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264475 - 06/09/2005 18:12
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Exactly. And part of education is knowledge of what other people think and confronting opinions opposing your own. Assuming that Dylan's correct in his assessment that the college kids he refers to have so little experience with cultures other than their own as to not be able to comprehend them, those kids have been poorly educated. That doesn't mean that they have to agree with those other cultures (in fact, it may mean that they would disagree with them even more than they do by default now), but the notion that they have no comprehension of them is frightening. I have had more than my fair share of experience with provincials of this type, ranging from people who are otherwise idiots to people who are otherwise brilliant, and they are, one and all, frightening people.
Many Christians say a faith untested is no faith at all. I'd argue that any belief system, religious, philosophical, or political, untested, is no belief at all.
Agreed. At my school (Houston Baptist University, very much a conservative Christian university) they definitely taught non-Christian ideas and gave the students exposure, even though every one on the faculty was a professing Christian. I remember the president of the university teaching our bible study and explaining that this was intentional. He said even if a teaching wasn't consistent with Christianity, we still needed to know about it to be come well educated individuals.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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