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#264870 - 09/09/2005 00:47 Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish))
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
I am on the brink of almost considering leaving the Information Technology field (so, not too close, really). I'm sick of not being able to find answers about software issues. The only way to find these answers is guesswork, trial and error, and downright scientific experimentation.

For example: When using Webalizer to monitor website stats, PDF files are included in the list of top accessed files on the site. But they are ranked by "hits" (also listing "kilobytes"). How can I convert "hits" to a useful metric like "page views"?
Does each PDF page count as one hit? Or can a page cause multiple hits, thanks to "byte range requests" breaking up the file? Seems like simple questions. Both Acrobat and Webalizer have predictable behavior which was created by humans. Yet, no websites have any info, Google Groups has nothing, and I probably won't hear back from the Webalizer author or from my Groups post. So, I'll never know how a huge portion of my website is being used.

Another example: What security settings I can apply to a PDF but still allow Google to index it, create a "View as HTML" cache, and/or extract the title and meta info? Can I specify information for the meta info that shows in search results?
I've searched the web and Groups for far too long, finding nothing. I've downloaded numerous PDF files (and observed my own) to see how Google handles different meta info and security settings. Yet I can find no pattern and no answrs. Both Acrobat and Google are finite systems with logic and algorithms which should be predictable and produce repeatable results. Yet they are acting as wild as nature, and the PDFs on my website still look like crap in Google's eyes.

Countless more examples: The countless error codes for countless, random, unreproducable errors that I receive from Microsoft software which are not documented anywhere. They are errors, they have codes, but they are not explained. It's beyond frustrating to hear "My computer crashed for no reason, here's the error I received." and have to reply "That could be caused by a hundred different things and it is impossible to diagnose." No MS knowledge base entries, no Groups answers, and no $200 to pay an MS tech to tell me I need to FDISK.

I don't understand. I'm not dealing with the unknowns of sub-atomic physics or brain chemistry. These software interactions should be possible to determine, and thus, could be documented or answered when asked. These answers must be out there, but I just can't find them. And high level functions at my work are suffering because of it.

I must not be cut out for Information Technology. I must just be too obsessive. That, or it should be renamed to Information Science for all the experimentation that's required to get anything to work. Thank heaven for the kind souls who continuously post their findings to Newsgroups, because without that, Microsoft Office would have killed me years ago.

Am I wrong? Am I nuts? Should I quit my job and move to Colorado to take up professional rock climbing? Or should I go back to my test network and keep testing, testing, testing?
_________________________
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#264871 - 09/09/2005 06:55 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: FireFox31]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5682
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
These software interactions should be possible to determine...


Yeah, right. You've just described the holy grail of Computer Science.
_________________________
-- roger

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#264872 - 09/09/2005 11:33 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: FireFox31]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
On the errors front - that'll be Microsoft, dude. It is their way

<hops off soapbox>
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock

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#264873 - 09/09/2005 12:22 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: FireFox31]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Welcome to the world of closed-source software. There are many reasons that people like open-source, but one of the big ones is that if you're having this problem with it, that just means that you're lazy.

I recognize that not everything is open-sourceable. Google is a good example, though I'm surprised that they don't document their PDF-scanning stuff better. But if you had the source code to Webalizer, you could just see exactly what it's doing, and change it if you didn't like the way it was doing it.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#264874 - 09/09/2005 13:55 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: wfaulk]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
There are many reasons that people like open-source, but one of the big ones is that if you're having this problem with it, that just means that you're lazy.


Thats kinda harsh, but sadly the mentality of many of the small time OSS developers out there. They will go on about never having time to document their own work, then turn around and call someone lazy for not knowing C well enough to go look at the source code to find the exact problem. That type of problem solving might work well in a lab environment with one or two machines, but in a typical IT managers day, they don't have time to spend hours pouring over source code and header files to find one problem, when they are likely to also be dealing with 10 other things.

That is why I don't mind, and in fact encourage big companies to get into Linux more. HP for example has some very knowledgeable people on a Linux specific support team. If someone from say the NASDAQ calls in because one of their Linux boxes throws up an arcane error, that team will help them solve it, instead of telling them to go to Google.com.

Computer technology is a very big field, and not every person involved in it can be expected to know every little detail about everything. The same can be said for many other jobs as well.

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#264875 - 09/09/2005 14:56 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: drakino]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Thats kinda harsh, but sadly the mentality of many of the small time OSS developers out there. They will go on about never having time to document their own work, then turn around and call someone lazy for not knowing C well enough to go look at the source code to find the exact problem.

No argument, but when the alternative is closed-source and no or poor documentation, open-source wins hands down.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#264876 - 09/09/2005 15:22 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: FireFox31]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31578
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'm with you, FireFox.

Everything you cite has a reason. And I don't like the reasons. Most of them all boil down to: Software is written by programmers. In most cases, programmers are a) inherently lazy, and b) managed by idiots.
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Tony Fabris

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#264877 - 09/09/2005 19:00 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: drakino]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14484
Loc: Canada
Quote:

That is why I don't mind, and in fact encourage big companies to get into Linux more. HP for example has some very knowledgeable people on a Linux specific support team. If someone from say the NASDAQ calls in because one of their Linux boxes throws up an arcane error, that team will help them solve it, instead of telling them to go to Google.com.



That's merely because the NASDAQ is willing to pay HP to help solve their problems. It has nothing to do with HP versus a little guy.

If NASDAQ wants to pay me $1000/hour to do the same work, I'll happily do it for them and get it done even more quickly and professionally than HP.

Cheers

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#264878 - 09/09/2005 22:39 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: tfabris]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
Quote:
In most cases, programmers are

c) brutally overworked such that they don't have the time or mental energy to create documentation.

That, and documentation doesn't equal "dollars" to the management, who must think "Who cares if a program is comprehensive to use, as long as it's flashy enough for our marketers to sell". I only wish I knew enough to contribute answers (and experiment results) to Usenet like so many people do.

More bad news about spyware in the security newsletters (CoolWebSearch bearing brilliant keyloggers, over-long registry entries appear invisible, etc) has not made me feel any better about the IT world. If software wasn't so damn complex, spyware might not be able to get a foothold (and organized crime would be forced back to good ol' bilking and persuasion instead of raw information harvesting). I assume Unix and Linux subscribe to the following concept, but for everything else: "If it IS broke, don't sweep it under the rug by creating a shiny new version with a whole new set of problems... and fix it." Not ment as an insult to all the programmers in this audience.
_________________________
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#264879 - 09/09/2005 22:52 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: mlord]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
If NASDAQ wants to pay me $1000/hour to do the same work, I'll happily do it for them and get it done even more quickly and professionally than HP.

If you'd like to outsource that to me, for say... $100/hour (keeping the other $700/hour for yourself), you just let me know.

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#264880 - 10/09/2005 06:08 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: mlord]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
That's merely because the NASDAQ is willing to pay HP to help solve their problems...If NASDAQ wants to pay me $1000/hour to do the same work.


The issue is that NASDAQ likely wouldn't be willing to pay just you for a support incident. Big companies feel much more conformable with another company providing them support then they do from just a person. Red Hat had done decently realizing that there indeed was money in the Linux services market.

Had big companies like HP (and many others, I'm just using an example I know well) not picked up Linux like they had, it wouldn't have the corporate penetration it has today. Simply put, corporations are not willing to deal with something so far on the fringe that they have to rely heavily on a search engine and source code to answer the question of why the tc3 networking module caused an SMP server to lock solid.

I like many things about Linux and the community around it. I also dislike quite a few things about Linux and the community around it. And the sad fact is that if I come into a point in time where I have to recommend a Unix solution, it's doubtful I could ever recommend something like Gentoo or Debian simply for the lack of a professional support provider. While I dislike RedHat, I'd likely push more towards them, or towards Novell with SuSE, as they not only offer a complete solution on the Linux software side, but they also provide excellent support contracts.

HP's support contracts in the Linux space make sense for one big reason though. If a company has Linux running on an HP product, the engineers they contact for support can resolve any issue. If it's hardware, the proper resources are located to address the issue. If it is software, and not an HP provided driver, we have paths to get the support needed out of RedHat or Novell if it goes beyond the expertise of the local software team.


Anyhow, to try and put this back on topic a bit while keeping the Linux side, the open source nature of Linux doesn't mean that a Linux program is going to spout out potentially more useful error messages then a closed source program on Windows. It's more a matter of the developer and how much effort they actually put into creating useful errors. If the error dialog is mostly hex gibberish, and the source code has little to no comments, the average IT support person is going to be stuck with the same problem as he would dealing with error 0x102939 on Windows. Poor documentation hurts on either side, and pure source code doesn't count as documentation in my book looking at it from an IT workers prospective.


Edited by drakino (10/09/2005 06:23)

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#264881 - 10/09/2005 11:44 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: drakino]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Well, one comment. Big IT shops usually have standardized "images" for their regular (non-technical) employees. They would not even troubleshoot the problem. They would back up the data (if the non-technical employee is lucky and respectful), burn the image back in with ghost or some homegrown variation and hand the machine back to the user. Done. NEXT!!!
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#264882 - 10/09/2005 15:06 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: pgrzelak]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
Quote:
ghost

So true, and I should do that at my shop too. But migrating the user's data and installing their user-specific often takes longer than fixing the problem. If only I could trust the applications to work seamlessly with server-side storage, Ghost would be my first and only option.

Doesn't make the unsolved mysteries of application usage, web stats, and Google any clearer, though. To the questions of "Why don't my footnotes renumber when I merge documents?" "Why did this Excel chart suddenly expand larger than my document?" "Why do the Word 'track changes' suddenly appear when I paste into a new document and why can't they just go away!", I can only answer, "Because software is just too complex these days. Save it as a text file."
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#264883 - 10/09/2005 15:24 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: drakino]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Poor documentation is always bad, but the point of the argument was "my closed-source application has poor documentation". He has no recourse. If he was using an open-source application, he could figure it out, if he really wanted to expend the effort, even if the documentation was just as poor. Extremely shitty is still better than completely useless.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#264884 - 10/09/2005 15:39 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: FireFox31]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1033
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
I've found groups.google.com (former dejanews) to be the best resource for finding that which ain't in manuals. I'm surprised how often it works.

I was using Pagemaker (the absolute all time worst program I've ever tried to use, now use Quark) and found that bitmaps with transparent backgrounds, even tho the manual said they should be transparent, aren't in PM documents. Adobe support had no idea what to do (they never do). I used groups.google.com and found a post from 4 years earlier that said if one rotates the graphic from 0 (0.1 degree is enough), the transparent background works.

Information superhighway my ass. More like information super landfill. What you want is probably there, but it takes a lot of digging through rubbish to find it. And like a landfill, you're probably gonna find a lot of interesting things along the way that you don't need. I was looking for three phase chopper controllers (I didn't want something as complicated as a veriable frequency drive) and one of the first hits was about a device called a chopper that's in sirens. unfortunately, I spent the next six hours reading about air raid and fire sirens. Really interesting stuff. I didn't find the 3 phase chopper I was looking for until the next day.

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#264885 - 10/09/2005 15:48 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: FireFox31]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Sadly, days when programming was at least attempted to be treated as a well structured engineering discipline are long gone. Today we are bombarded with new "paradigms", new "frameworks", new reinvented wheels every day, all hastily clobbered together as if nothing before them existed. Good engineering does not work that way. Innovation is neccesary (not appearance of innovation), but so is building upon prior art. If engineers built bridges the way software is constructed, they would all be beautiful, looking as if they came from a fairy tale or Star Wars cities, but would collapse with the first bird alighting on them...

In other words, I am with you.

I agree that open source offers, at least theoretically, a way out of a situation like the one you describe. However, I will take this as the opportunity for a bit of a tangential rant on my pet peeve about most of OS development:

There are hundreds of simple text editors on sourceforge. There are countless application development frameworks, web UI toolsets, data abstraction or persistence layers... Most of them unfinished. Is the author of text editor #1001 certain that his ideas are so radical that the best way to express them is to write a totally new program, instead of improving one of previous 1000? Another symptom of this is a typical description of version n+1 of many things: "Total rewrite of version n". Don't people design things any more!? (Countless books on refactoring, agile methods, extreme programming ets do seem to discourage design and thinking things out before starting to bang away on the keyboard. Other source of poor software is opposite: slavish adherence to "design patterns" without really understanding them... )

How many universally useful, widely accepted and relied upon OS products are there: Linux itself, Apache (but not all of their countless, short-lived sub-projects), PostgreSQL and MySQL, Perl, Python and PHP, JBoss, perhaps a dozen more. Pretty little, given enormous talent and time that goes into it. Granted, there are zillions of particular, niche itches that got succesfully scratched by efforts of most often a single person (like our Hijack, jEmplode and others), but still...

Please, OS hackers, devote your time and energy to quality, not sheer quantity of software!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#264886 - 11/09/2005 05:09 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: bonzi]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Software patents make using prior art a bit of a PITA. It's definitely one of the reasons for so many different wheels.

You do bring up good points though. I'm about to start looking for a C/C++ programmer and I'm trying to get someone who is relatively fresh out of school. First so I can get someone that hasn't already picked up too many bad habits - someone that will be able to move into our own stream of development and quality-focus. At the same time, I'm only interested in the brightest candidates and little previous job experience lessens the amount of previous work I can evaluate.

Well written and plentiful source documentation (as well as detailed design notes) are an absolute must. Having someone else be able to jump into an existing project quickly is a very valuable asset.

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#264887 - 11/09/2005 13:01 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: bonzi]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14484
Loc: Canada
Quote:

How many universally useful, widely accepted and relied upon OS products are there: Linux itself, Apache (but not all of their countless, short-lived sub-projects), PostgreSQL and MySQL, Perl, Python and PHP, JBoss, perhaps a dozen more.


Tons more. Try K3B, Koffice, OpenOffice, The K Desktop Environment (KDE) with hundreds of major components, the GNOME Desktop with similar numbers of large projects, FireFox, Mozilla, ThunderBird, GNU-CC (gcc), GNU-Libc, gdb, (X)Emacs, Sendmail, Postfix, Bind, ...

The list goes on VERY VERY long, and all of these are GIANTS in the industry. Yes, there's a strong emphasis on infrastructure there (needed to bootstrap higher level apps), but there's still hundreds of good, solid end-user Desktop/Server apps within just those few umbrellas I've listed. [EDIT:]And the nice thing is that these ones (listed) just happen to have documentation of at least typical commerical quality, and much better in the case of the GNU stuff.

And anywhere anyone wants something specific, to specific standards, there's an army of folks like me just waiting for the right offer.

Cheer


Edited by mlord (11/09/2005 13:04)

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#264888 - 11/09/2005 18:01 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: hybrid8]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Bruno

How many programmers think of poor documentation as a form of job security?
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Glenn

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#264889 - 11/09/2005 21:14 Re: Finding information in the IT world (this is big (rant-ish)) [Re: mlord]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Argh, OK, that "dozen" was not fair, but it is still frustrating how many promising projects get abandoned while so much effort is endlessly duplicated.

If we had funding, my tiny company would retain you or someone else willing and knowledgeable to move Apache XML-FOP from version 0.20.5 it has been stuck at for the last two years. Of course, it has been merged with another Apache project, then completely redesigned... They do promise 1.0 before the end of the year.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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