#265274 - 16/09/2005 11:32
Control of the Revolution
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I wanted to get opinions from you guys on the new controller for the Nintendo Revolution. I was glued to my computer last night, refreshing IGN's live update of the Nintendo press conference where everyone suspected they'd announce it.
I've got to say, it's pretty intriguing. At the very least, people who don't like it can always plug in a Gamecube controller. It's good to see that Nintendo is doing some of the things the other companies are doing, like including a power button and other buttons that appear to give you complete control over the system. But it all ends there! It'll be fascinating to see what happens next, and how well this controller works in the real world.
Here's some links:
IGN hands-on
The controller
Gotta admit, it's pretty
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Matt
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#265275 - 16/09/2005 11:38
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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I think it is a neat idea. I would like to see that analog part also be wireless because I can see many games that could be played with one hand just using that part.
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Matt
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#265276 - 16/09/2005 12:49
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It looks really awkward to me. I know that when I get into a game I kinda fight with the controller. You know, body language. I'd think that having it separate like that would be, well, awkward.
Also, sometimes when I use the controller and I'm pushing with my thumb, I'm not really pushing against the same hand, but using the same hand as the fulcrum and pushing against the opposite hand. Having to provide the moving and stabilizing force with one hand seems like an invitation to bad cramping.
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Bitt Faulk
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#265277 - 16/09/2005 12:59
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Also, I hope no game developers want you to do more than one of "use the d-pad", "press A", and "press a or b" anywhere near the same time. Shuffling that remote control around one-handed seems like it'd be "fun".
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Bitt Faulk
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#265278 - 16/09/2005 15:25
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: Dignan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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First impression: Looks like something from one of them funny catalogs.
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#265279 - 16/09/2005 17:28
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Gah, people trying to fix something that ain't broke. The gamecube controller was the most perfect object in human existence, the epitome of ergonomics and technology. SIGH.
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#265281 - 16/09/2005 18:29
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Quote:
Gah, people trying to fix something that ain't broke. The gamecube controller was the most perfect object in human existence, the epitome of ergonomics and technology. SIGH.
As Matt said, you can use OG GC controllers. This thing is a whole new ballpark. 3D tracking... almost. Ah, shades of the U-Force!
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#265282 - 17/09/2005 00:30
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 10/11/2000
Posts: 497
Loc: Utah, USA
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Quote:
It looks really awkward to me. I know that when I get into a game I kinda fight with the controller. You know, body language. I'd think that having it separate like that would be, well, awkward.
Bitt,
You did actually read the articles, right? Because body language is indeed a relevant phrase.
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-Aaron
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#265283 - 17/09/2005 03:42
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: adavidw]
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enthusiast
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 334
Loc: Seattle, WA. USA
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I've been debating this "revolution" all day. I'm not sure what to make of it.
A little clarification... I am a video game developer. I usually don't like admitting this publicly, but there you go. I also am a Nintendo Fan-Boy uber alles. I have an original Donkey Kong upright. I think Mario 64 is the greatest thing to happen to video games since the invention of the quarter. Still, I am both excited and frightened by what this portends.
Nintendo has been slipping into a strange niche since the Playstation was introduced. I have always championed their decisions, but this one leaves me stumped. As a game player it is pretty much decided I will buy this. It looks fun. Fun and different like the DS is fun and different. If anyone has a chance of pulling this off it is Nintendo... but Nintendo is a definitive "#3' in the modern console wars. Developers will not develop for gamecube because of their insistence on keeping their weird proprietary storage paradigm and relatively small market share. This is just going to make it worse.
So if you have predictably small third party development you run into the issue of market focus. Nintendo claims they are focusing on the "non-game player" with this new console. A revolution to be sure, but how many mothers and grandparents are going to walk into Toys R' Us and see the wall of Xbox360/PS3 games and opt for the Nintendo Revolution with their 3 launch titles?
Don't get me worng... I am actually excited by this... and it will probably be a very fun console to own. I'll be there launch day with money in hand, but I personally fear this is the end of Nintendo's relevance in the video game market. I want them to survive more than anything. I can only hope that this innovation will allow them to carve out a profitable niche in which they might survive... where they will not have to compete with MS or SCEA.
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MK2 36GB Blue, currently on life support
"RIP RCR..."
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#265284 - 17/09/2005 13:14
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: adavidw]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, and that may be part of the problem. When you hold a single object in both your hands, your body becomes kind of unified. If you're holding two separate things (even if tethered), your body becomes bicameral again. At least mine does.
When you're driving down the highway, do you keep both hands on the steering wheel or one on the wheel and one on the gearshift? Why?
Regardless, a gyroscopic mouse doesn't require that the controller be split like that.
I bet money that there will be companies that are going to release products that will be adapters to hold both parts in one unit.
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Bitt Faulk
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#265285 - 17/09/2005 16:59
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
I bet money that there will be companies that are going to release products that will be adapters to hold both parts in one unit.
Or games may opt not to use the analog stick addon. Most of the demonstrations shown only used the remote control looking bit. The analog stick addon was shown to give some examples of how a few existing GameCube games could be played with it.
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#265286 - 17/09/2005 18:24
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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You think that the analog stick will be underutilized? That by itself would make me less interested. I've hated d-pads from NES on. And having just the remote control part would be awkward to use, too. Imagine yourself holding a game controller with one hand. Grab your TV's remote and think about trying to use it as a game controller. Would it be down by your side? In your lap? Pointed at the TV? Having the isometric forces applied to both sides of the controller (or to both arms, depending on how you look at it) makes holding it a lot easier, I think.
I continue to think that it's a terrible controller, if you couldn't tell.
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Bitt Faulk
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#265287 - 17/09/2005 19:03
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
I continue to think that it's a terrible controller, if you couldn't tell.
I'll wait to judge it until after I actually try using it. I thought the GameCube controller looked very odd when it was first shown off, but it ended up working out well after getting some hands on game time with it. And hey, if the new Revolution controller doesn't work out, I can plug in my existing investment in Gamecube controllers into the new console and use those.
I'll definitely give Nintendo credit for being willing to try something new. Both the XBox 360 and Playstation 3 controllers look like the exact same thing in a newer looking package.
Even the PSP was just a normal evolution of a handheld gaming console. Where as Nintendo thought up the DS with dual screens, a microphone, and touch screen that seems to actually be working well in the market place. I think gamers in general are very tired of rehashed ideas, and when a company is willing to innovate a bit on the hardware, the developers will run with that to at least make a few new and cool things. Even if you don't like Nintendogs, there are quite a few other games making use of the DS hardware that manage to pull gamers in. I saw this by simply letting a few people play the Kirby game on the DS at Quakecon. That got more use then the PSP and the games I had for that while we all waited in line.
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#265288 - 17/09/2005 20:06
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, the difference between the existing PS and XBox controllers and the GameCube controller is that the PS and XBox controller both suck and the GameCube controller was nearly perfect. At the same time, I understand your notion of changing things up, but this looks a lot like taking a giant step backwards. Turn it sideways and it's very close to being an original NES controller.
Honestly, I find the DS innovations silly. I don't want to yell at my game system and I continue to think that a stylus for a controller is awkward. (I haven't decided if "awkward" is my new mantra or Nintendo's.) That doesn't mean that there aren't better games for it than for the PSP, though, and that's what really determines how successful a game system is.
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Bitt Faulk
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#265289 - 18/09/2005 03:20
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Bit, have you seen the video of how they expect people to use it. It was very skeptical, but that video made me far less so. I'm still going to have to use it to see how well it works to get my final impression, but it has potential.
Regardless of how well it works, though, I'm going to buy it the second it comes out. It just may be the first thing I ever pre-order.
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Matt
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#265290 - 18/09/2005 05:52
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Very odd, it looks like someone came up with the prototype for the bits that were going to make up the controller, but then forgot to merge them into one device at a later stage.
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#265291 - 18/09/2005 15:03
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
have you seen the video of how they expect people to use it
Dignan, have you got a link to the video? It looks totally awesome, I can't wait to play with it.
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#265292 - 18/09/2005 15:56
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Bit, apparently there is one bit of info that I hadn't heard yet. Supposedly Nintendo has plans to release a sort of "shell" for the remote-styled controller, that you would use to play more "traditional" games with. There's an interesting mock-up here. Uh oh, that sort of reminds me of the controller for a certain other Sega system... I'm liking it more and more. Here is the promo video for the controller. I hope I didn't give the impression that it was a demo. It's just conceptual, basically. At the moment, I believe the only demonstrations they had were extremely limited. Here is the complete, translated keynote speech by Satoru Iwata, complete with English slides. That was released the day after the event. I watched the whole thing, and it really explains Nintendo's whole strategy these days.
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Matt
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#265293 - 18/09/2005 16:39
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, I've been waiting years for a more intuitive interface to my cooking and flyswatting games.
So here's a list of the games they show in the video:
- tennis: not bad
- cooking: just what I've been waiting for
- conducting: again, sounds like fun
- drumming: I suppose it's cheaper than buying a drum set
- baseball: not bad
- fishing: okay, I know they're popular, but why?
- ???: vacuuming, maybe? This is the one where he's holding it like a pencil, sorta, and it elicits laughter
- Mario: I cannot think of a more irritating interface for Mario. How long do you tend to play side-scrollers? Most people tend to do it for hours. Do you want your arm sticking out for hours and flexing your wrist about once every two seconds? I see carpal-tunnel lawsuits in the future for Nintendo
- Resident Evil: okay, that was cool
- ???: The one with the birthday party. Maybe Mario Cart? I can't tell, but it doesn't look like they're doing much but holding their arms out in front of themselves
- shooting: does it really detect when you jump out from behind your chair?
- flyswatting: okay, maybe balloon popping. sounds thrilling regardless
- swordfighting: this is a good application for the motion sensor. and the bar shape of the control lends itself well.
The part I don't get is that it seems to be detecting where at the TV you're pointing, like those old guns. Is it doing that, or is that more bullshit like the jumping out from behind your chair thing?
Anyway, the things it seems good for are things where you are holding a rod of some nature, like a sword, tennis racket, or baseball bat (or knife, frying pan or flyswatter, I guess). It'd probably work well for golf, too. My argument is that it's a terrible interface for basically everything else. I tell you what. The next time you watch a TV show, hold your remote control and point it at the TV the whole time. Then come back and tell me how good your wrist feels.
Edited by wfaulk (18/09/2005 16:42)
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Bitt Faulk
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#265295 - 19/09/2005 01:50
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
swordfighting
On an early incarnation of "let's avoid studying for finals" week in college, I found a new game called Die by the Sword. Its innovation was accurately modeling human movment.
It demonstrated human movement by letting your mouse be the fighter's sword arm. You could swing the sword anywhere a human could by moving the mouse, with mouse speed indicating sword power. It was some neat technology, but I always ended up flailing my mouse wildly as the onscreen hero's sword would move in convoluted directions.
The freedom granted by the control reminded me of my first (and only) play at Virtual Reality many years earlier. Sure, step inside the ring thing and the virtual gun moves wherever you point your arm. But by the end of my expensive 5 minutes, lag and slow tracking speed had frustrated me into being Pterodactyl food.
It's great that Nintendo is taking a risk on innovation, but overcoming the awkwardness of a "motion in space" controler will be hard. (wow, writing this post took me back through 12 years of my videogaming history. how refreshing.)
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#265296 - 19/09/2005 02:22
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
cooking: just what I've been waiting for
conducting: again, sounds like fun
???: vacuuming, maybe? This is the one where he's holding it like a pencil, sorta, and it elicits laughter
shooting: does it really detect when you jump out from behind your chair?
flyswatting: okay, maybe balloon popping. sounds thrilling regardless
This is the Tokyo Game Show, not E3. I expect all kinds of weirdness out of the Japanese game developers. They seem to enjoy these kinds of things in games. Add a dating simulator, and you've got yourself a guaranteed seller.
Anyhow, they say they are using some type of bar near the Tv (top, bottom, somewhere on the side, doesn't matter) to track the controllers via Bluetooth. Still not sure exactly how it works, but I'm betting it has 3 sensors in the bar reading the radio waves and timing how quick they arrive at each three to triangulate the controller. This isn't any light gun based technology, so the type of TV won't matter.
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#265297 - 19/09/2005 04:54
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 27/10/2002
Posts: 568
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Quote:
Still not sure exactly how it works, but I'm betting it has 3 sensors in the bar reading the radio waves and timing how quick they arrive at each three to triangulate the controller.
They could also incorporate accelerometers and/or gyros in the controller to calculate movements...
Stig
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#265298 - 19/09/2005 12:26
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: StigOE]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, but they wouldn't know the initial position.
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Bitt Faulk
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#265299 - 19/09/2005 12:34
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My point about the shooting game being whether you can actually gain cover by hiding behind your chair. Somehow I doubt it. The point of that complaint being that once you remove that piece of demonstration from the shooting game, it becomes just a shooting game. Not that shooting games are bad, but it's much less interesting than it initially appears.
I guess my whole point is that the ergonomics of the controller suck for everything except games that simulate you holding a rod of some nature, and, as such, should have been secondary to a more generic interface. If the adapter shell comes with the game, I have no problem. And I'm sure that the rod games will be fun. It just seems to me that this is kind of equivalent to a computer coming with only a bar-code reader for input.
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Bitt Faulk
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#265300 - 19/09/2005 13:55
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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I seriously doubt that they'd be hedging their entire future gaming market on something that is the equivalent of a computer coming with a bar code scanner for input. Actually I'd say the opposite... it's more like a computer coming out with a 3D mouse that lets you use your PC in ways you'd never have imagined. Nintendo rarely fails on "fun factor" when it comes to games. Seems like you are focusing too much on it's limitations and not it's possibilities. Once developers get ahold of it who knows what they will come up with. That video was just an idea of possibilities not a showcase of future games, so the sky is the limit. It got me pretty excited to tell the truth, I haven't picked up any of my consoles in damn near a year, I'm bored with them. But this has me eager to play again. It's a new paradigm.
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#265301 - 20/09/2005 17:27
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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And they'd have to watch out for Gyration patents...
Bruno
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#265302 - 21/09/2005 07:16
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: hybrid8]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Quote:
And they'd have to watch out for Gyration patents...
And people with Parkinson's disease.
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#265303 - 21/09/2005 12:29
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: wfaulk]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
Yeah, but they wouldn't know the initial position.
Somebody mentioned a 'Home' button on the remote (it was on Slashdot, so no clue if its correct). If so, just hitting that button would effectively 'boresight', or reset the controller's orientation and position.
- Tim
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#265304 - 21/09/2005 21:37
Re: Control of the Revolution
[Re: loren]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
Once developers get ahold of it who knows what they will come up with.
I'm totally excited about the Revolution as well, but WILL developers come up with creative ideas? Didn't the idea of creativity in a video game die in about 1991? Wasn't creativity replaced by flashy CGI and promise of big sales thanks to cross marketing? Sure, a "2 Fast, 2 Furious" video game could use "the pointer" to simulate stick shifting, but it doesn't port to PS3 and XBox, so it won't happen... right?
Oh oh, wait. I know a cross marketed game which uses a rod-like device. Get ready for "Star Wars - Attack of The Guy Playing Next to You! Lightsabre-fight your college buddies without anyone getting hurt. Safer than Nerf Fencing!"
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