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#268650 - 02/11/2005 18:26 Nagin's racist(?) comment
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Mayor Ray Nagin of New Orleans (you may remember him from some TV show that was on all the time a few weeks back) recently asking

Quote:
How do I ensure that New Orleans is not overrun by Mexican workers?

He's gotten in some hot water about that, with organizations responding by saying things like

Quote:
At a time when this great country has united to lend a helping hand to those affected by the ravages of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, the USHCC, finds the recent public statement by New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin to be offensive, divisive and highly inappropriate. ... To be confronted with comments of this nature that highlight prejudice and division, coming from a public official that represents an important minority group, is a huge disappointment.

To this end, I have a survey:
What does "Mexican" mean?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 02/11/2005 13:26
View the results of this poll.
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Bitt Faulk

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#268651 - 02/11/2005 18:28 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
If you can't tell, it really bothers me that people take it upon themselves to decide what words mean, regardless of the actual accepted meaning of those words.
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Bitt Faulk

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#268652 - 02/11/2005 18:30 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
That is an interesting question. Can I ask for clarification of your question?

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#268653 - 02/11/2005 18:32 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: blitz]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Go ahead.

But this may answer it: what if it was in Detroit instead of New Orleans and the Detroit mayor had said he wanted to prevent the workforce from being inundated by Canadians?
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Bitt Faulk

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#268654 - 02/11/2005 18:37 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Am I supposed to answer what I think it means or am I supposed to guess what Nagin meant?

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#268655 - 02/11/2005 18:41 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: blitz]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, the question is "What does "Mexican" mean". If you're the type of person who thinks that question is fluid, then you're the kind of person I'm complaining about.

To use the context of another, more absurd, though real-life, example, what if I said "Mayor Nagin is niggardly" and then asked "What does "niggardly" mean?"
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Bitt Faulk

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#268656 - 02/11/2005 18:46 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
I don't see my answer on your list: itinerant illegal immigrants (who, in that part of the US, will most likely happen to be from Mexico)

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#268657 - 02/11/2005 18:47 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: canuckInOR]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, then, they'd be citizens of Mexico, wouldn't they?
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Bitt Faulk

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#268658 - 02/11/2005 19:07 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
I will abstain because I don't think Nagin was being racist at all. I think he was being a politician.

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#268659 - 02/11/2005 19:16 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: blitz]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, that's exactly my point. People are getting all up in his business, claiming that he hates Hispanics, when, in fact, he was simply saying that he wants local people who are currently out of work to be given the opportunity to work at these reconstruction jobs without being lowballed by illegal immigrants.

And they're doing that by modifying what "Mexican" means. It's a cheap trick and it makes every side look bad.

He could have saved himself somewhat by saying "illegal immigrants", but I'm sure that there's some illegal immigrant anti-defamation league out there somwhere. But that's beside the point. At least that group would be arguing something that he said.

And the point of all of that is that if he were a real politician, he would have made sure to say that in a positive light by asking how to make sure that locals got those jobs. And I like the fact that he's in a position of not being a politician, but a just trying to make his city work.
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Bitt Faulk

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#268660 - 02/11/2005 19:30 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
eliceo
enthusiast

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 335
I think the comment just looks bad. Sometimes people just say things that look bad but are really pretty innocent. I think "mexican" is a bit off here, even though the definition would be a citizen of Mexico. Ethnicity and country of origin can get weird.

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#268661 - 03/11/2005 01:34 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
Quote:
But this may answer it: what if it was in Detroit instead of New Orleans and the Detroit mayor had said he wanted to prevent the workforce from being inundated by Canadians?


Don't get me started on those damn Canadians!!

Quote:
Well, that's exactly my point. People are getting all up in his business, claiming that he hates Hispanics, when, in fact, he was simply saying that he wants local people who are currently out of work to be given the opportunity to work at these reconstruction jobs without being lowballed by illegal immigrants.


I agree. Are you suprised? Anyone that talks about stopping illegal immigration is labled a racist by the same argument. I think that his comments are being misinterpreted by overly sensitive people, but I have to be honest that part of me finds it a bit funny that for once it isn't happening to a Republican.

Honestly, my guess is that in addition to the point you brought up, he's also worried that a large number of residents are not coming back (especially after being exposed to other parts of the country and having lost all they have back home) and many of the immigrant workers (illegal or otherwise) have said they intend to stay. As a politician, he likely is a bit concerned that most of his voters are gone.

I too was disgusted that New Orleans residents weren't being given these jobs at reconstruction until I thought about the fact that the workers rushing to New Orleans likely already have the skills to do the job. Being in construction, I've come across a few job sites that had illegal Mexican immigrants and I have to admit I was impressed with their skill at dry walling or masonry or whatever. These skills are usually learned over years to be any good at them so I think it's partly unrealistic that all of the displaced citizens of New Orleans could be expected to do reconstruction by themselves. I by no means support what's going on down there with the reconstruction and the hiring of illegals, but I think both sides arguing their points are over simplifying things. (Just like the "They're only doing work that American's don't want to do" argument is BS. I know plenty of out-of-work construction workers that loved their jobs. They just like to be paid for it.)

This feels like an opposite sketch on You Can't Do That on Television.
> Democrats are falsely being called bigots and SE_Sport_Driver is saying things are more a shade of grey instead of black or white!
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Brad B.

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#268662 - 03/11/2005 08:12 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: wfaulk]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
Well, the question is "What does "Mexican" mean". If you're the type of person who thinks that question is fluid, then you're the kind of person I'm complaining about.

But questions such as that have been fluid ever since the figure of speech was invented. The one Nagin has employed here is the synecdoche, and wanting the synecdoche outlawed seems to me like agitating about metaphorical use of the word "literally": an attempt to "Principia-Mathematicise" language, Goedelly doomed to failure.

The argument is about what Nagin intended "Mexican" as a synecdoche for: illegal immigrants, in which case it seems a perfectly justified comment to make (if poorly-worded), or Hispanic-Americans in general, in which case it's not a justifiable comment to make, especially coming from a New Orleanian, that city owing as it does so much to its status as a cultural melting-pot. In both cases "Mexican" would be a logically fitting synecdoche, as most Hispanic-Americans, and probably in that part of the world most illegal immigrants too, are of Mexican origin. But because of this ambiguity, it was a poor wording to choose.

The other issue is whether, logical fitness aside, it's a bit insensitive to use the name of a cultural or national group as a synecdoche for a negative concept. And my feeling is that it is a bit insensitive, a bit like saying "the black areas of New Orleans", when what you mean is "the (predominantly black) poor areas of New Orleans". So seen from that angle, Nagin's remark was unfortunate, whichever meaning he intended.

Peter

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#268663 - 03/11/2005 11:11 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: peter]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
But questions such as that have been fluid ever since the figure of speech was invented.
Exactly.

FWIW, when I lived in Texas "Mexican" typically referred to ethnicity as much as nationality- and this from self proclaimed "Mexicans" of US nationality.

However, I agree with Bitt's ultimate point that you shouldn't re-define someone's words so that you can be offended and then raise a stink about it. Of course, it happens all the time, both in politics and in marriage!


Edited by JeffS (03/11/2005 11:14)
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#268664 - 03/11/2005 14:04 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: peter]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
If the people complaining about what he said were saying something like "we are offended by the implication that all people of Mexican descent are illegals" or "we are offended at the implication that all illegals are Mexican" or even "we think that Mr. Nagin needs to choose his words more wisely because people can take offense at things not intended to be offensive" then you might have a point, but I think it's obvious that he wasn't complaining about the ethnic heritage of the people in NO.

The fact of the matter is that a Mexican is a citizen of Mexico. Mr. Nagin may certainly have been using it in a multitude of different ways. I'm not intending to outlaw metaphor. But no one seems to consider the notion that he might have been using the word's denotative meaning. And my problem with that is that if we can't use the word "Mexican" to mean "Mexican", our language is shrinking and not growing.
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Bitt Faulk

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#268665 - 03/11/2005 14:12 Re: Nagin's racist comment [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Honestly, I'm not arguing immigration law at all. I'm caught up in the semiotics.

But if we're going to talk about immigration, personally, I think that immigration law is too strict and actually increases the number of illegals and undesirables in the country. I've seen a lot of Mexicans around here that do a better job at semi-skilled labor than any Americans I've seen, and that seems to have to do with the complete lack of focus on semi-skilled labor in the American culture. We need more trade schools that actually educate people instead of throwing diplomas at people who once saw the Visual C++ IDE. At the same time, I've seen just as many Mexican scumbags who are a drain on the US. (Which is not to say that there aren't natural-born American scumbags.) I think making it easier for those people with something to give to get in would increase the good-people:scumbag ratio.

But, again, that's not really my point.
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Bitt Faulk

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