#269009 - 11/11/2005 01:58
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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I have no doubt that the religious right, if they had their way, would leave us with abstinence as the sole defense.
This is not my position. I believe in forms of birth control other than abstinence and don't believe that they should be relegated to only married people. People should make their own decisions about sex and protection.
I remember other posts, I think, where it was clear this is not your position, and you have taken a great deal of care to outline the exceptions you take to the positions of other Christians that I would lump (in a somewhat uninformed way) into the "religious right". That being said, you pretty clearly told us that, electorally speaking, you are pretty much aligned with the folks I call by that name. Same omnipotent god, right?
While this last question may verge on mockery, it is a serious question in my mind. If a large group of people are worshiping a "one, true deity", how is it that the omnipotent deity does such a crummy job of communicating what the rules are? Maybe God needs to stay more on message. Hire Ari Fleischer.
It's not like this is the exclusive dilemma of right-ish Christians in the US. Think of the many Catholic gays working to have Rome accept them whilst being condemned by those they'd like to bond with. Hasn't God heard of the franchise model? Spin-offs? Targeted marketing?
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long after Jeff's god has joined Zeus in the Religion Hall of Fame.
We'll see . . .
I don't mean to predict that this is going to happen any time soon. We'll both be dead and some N of us (point estimate=1, 99% confidence interval: 0-2) will be in heaven before that happens. Christianity, in its uniquely American form, certainly has a grip here in the US, tho' we'll see how that holds out as our country declines. And Catholicism, while diminishing in Europe, certainly has a lot of legs around the world. When we tune in from heaven, though, I'm guessing that we may find that the divine belief system with the longest legs will be Islam. Now, they may all worship the same Allah, and I wouldn't be too concerned, but I'm afraid that the mullahs that prevail could be the ones who want to take away and burn all the electric guitars.
I wonder if Allah knows he has a communication problem.
All this being said, I think if you take the long view, Allah's warm-up jacket will wind up in that display case, too. People will stand there and ask: "Allah, how could you have ever left the Red Sox?"
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In the meantime, his followers/inventors see fit to preside over the lives of others...women...make those lives more difficult and potentially more dangerous, history and individual freedom be damned.
Regarding your accusation, I am not cavalier about anyone's individual freedom- unfortunately it seems that there are two freedoms to protect- that of the child and that of the woman.
I absolutely agree that making abortion illegal and then feeling the work is done is wrong. The women we're talking about need help and protection- that is our collective responsibility.
And if you mean to imply that there are no Christians helping these women then you are mistaken.
Not for a moment would I imply that. Thanks to various TV news magazines it is clear to me that there are more than a few people of faith who are doing extraordinary things. Idealistic belching aside, I am no secular saint. Call me self-absorbed. When am I going to take a developmentally disabled FAS baby from Mississipi (or elsewhere) into my home? Not soon. Maybe when I hit Lotto and can employ a pair of au pairs. So I *do* look to those of you who profess your collective responsibilty to the unborn to continue to carry more than your share of this burden. I admire your willingness to sacrifice for this principle.
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There are plenty, it's just that unfortunately, like most of society's needs, the need is overwhelming and these organization's efforts fall short. But sacrificing the freedom and life of the child is not a good way to meet those needs.
You know, of course, that some folks don't accept your basic assumptions re "life of the child".
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You claim that women's lives will be more dangerous if abortion is outlawed and I think you're right. Would unborn children's lives be less dangerous? I think so, though certainly some would still die.
What is almost ironic is that I think, thankfully, that you have been outflanked by (shudder) science. Now some folks in Kansas might not want to admit it, but it has been shown that a certain chemical compound, RU486, has been shown to be an effective, easy to employ abortifacient. I mean, the DEA hasn't done much to limit the flow of cocaine, so why should I think that the FDA will fare any better in limiting the flow of this compact, non-habit-forming drug across our borders. And I am really hoping that these smugglers succeed in Mississippi, as I see that event as much preferable to the prospect of deaths from amateur abortions that you, on balance, seem willing to accept.
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And how would this play out if we were talking about 2 week old babies? Would that change things? If legalizing the killing of 2 week old babies made it safer for women who did it, would we consider allowing it?
This, I would like to think, in our current society, is a false dichotomy. I'd never contemplate this, nor would I want to. It is worth noting that there have been cultures/societies that have practiced infanticide (to survive, it is said). Not sure if this still goes on, but I know this has been the case with some tribes in my lifetime. Well, for better, I think, we did not put the 82nd on alert and invade those folks and kill all of them to prevent them from practicing infanticide. Maybe we had gentle encounters with those societies and nudged a little bit and said "Hey, there's a better way....let's increase your crop yield. Oh, and girls are just as cool as boys".
All of that aside, I think that your positions are based on an artificially bounded conception of life. If, in the broader historical context of women, pregancy and women's right to self-determination, you are willing to argue that women shouldn't be free to employ an early-stage abortifacient like RU486, then all I can conclude is that your "life" definition is simply something based in mysticism, based on a particular deity franchise. You know how much weight that carries with me.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#269010 - 11/11/2005 02:28
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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My take on the situation in France is that it´s a fierce battle between the French and the muslims, and one of them has to lose in the end. Looks like a win-win situation.
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#269011 - 11/11/2005 02:45
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Anyway, I agree that the state being separated from religion means it should not care whether schoolkids wear some religious symbol or other.
As much as I consider myself an aggressive "separation-of-church-and-state" guy, I have felt like this is a place that France has maybe gone too far to its own detriment. I didn't send them an email to say "Bad France!" -- I mean, it's not my country -- but I will say I was concerned. I guess I could say I see what they are getting at, but let's be real.
In a devil's advocate mode, and knowing that we don't have the same immigrant dynamics in the US as are found in Europe, I wondered what we would think if France did *not* take this position and if 12-year-old school girls started coming to class in burkas? Not inconceivable, is it?
If you didn't know me, you might think I wasn't a sexist pig. But I am in my own harmless (I hope) way. Still, there are a number of things in this world that I think are completely f'ed up, with making women wear tents being high on the list.
So, I am concerned that France has gone too far, but I can also see some merit to the notion that France has avoided some bad things by a matter of degree. Feel free to convince me that France could simply pass an anti-burka ordinance.
The recent political bashings aside, I find the comparison of the relative tribulations of the USA and France interesting. We have guns. They have cigarettes.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#269012 - 11/11/2005 03:17
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I truly believe a conservative court is going to lead to a better nation and world than a more liberal one, so that is my choice.
I struggle with the idea that a conservative approach in court (or government) leads to much of a better anything. Conservatives want to reduce abortion. Great. So do liberals. The difference, from what I can tell, is that liberals accept abortion as a necessary evil born (if you'll pardon the pun) from a lack of education. The liberal approach is to educate people so that they can make choices that don't lead to abortion, and thereby decreasing the need for abortion. The conservative approach of banning it outright is tantamount to sweeping the problem under the carpet -- the problem is still there. The next conservative approach (which I don't think you agree with, but is espoused by Bush and many, many other conservative leaders) is to preach abstinance (which is a good thing), but limit sex-education in schools, not to mention decrease the availability of birth-control in general, at the same time (which is a bad thing). The birth control pill would still be illegal under a conservative court. With the conservative approach, abortions become more prevalent, not less, as it creates an entrenched feedback loop.
To me, the only way you can get eradicate abortion is through education, and that will never happen with a conservative government. Voting for anti-abortion governments, IMHO, does nothing but prolong the problem.
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#269013 - 11/11/2005 03:22
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I think that myth of lazy French is very much exactly that, myth.
In my experience, I've found that said myth is typically perpetuated by a group of people that haven't realized that "increased work hours means increased productivity" is also a myth.
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#269014 - 11/11/2005 03:28
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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That said, I don't think that religious freedom should be absolutely unrestricted. For example, I think that perpetrators of clitorectomy should be prosecuted as if they mutilated their victim in any other way, religion and custom or not.
And do you hold the same view of male circumcision? Do we prosecute all the Jews?
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#269015 - 11/11/2005 03:42
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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And do you hold the same view of male circumcision? Do we prosecute all the Jews?
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Gotta jump in. *Totally* different thing, I think.
As a practicing isexual, I can say that I have no beef with my (Catholic) parents who had me snipped because they thought it was the hygienic thing to do. They weren't trying to make sure that I avoided sin/fun -- and they didn't -- rather that our family doctor had some funny, unscientific ideas. Jewish circumcision rite may not seem like the smartest thing now, but I'm not sure that it materially reduced any male's fun quotient.
OK, ruin my weekend. Say "Jim, if only you knew!!!"
I think that female circumcision is a whole different beast, fun reduction-wise. You might say that there are some tribes who -- in the vein of tribal infanticide -- just don't know any better. But those tribes now have cell phones and satellite dishes.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#269016 - 11/11/2005 05:15
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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And do you hold the same view of male circumcision? Do we prosecute all the Jews?
See Jim's answer. (It's a pleasure to see Jim active here again, BTW!)
No, we don't prosecute for Jewish (or Muslim) circumcision (there is only male circumcision; 'female circumcision' is euphemism), nor for those face scars that some Sudanese (and I suppose other) boys get as a sign of manhood, not even for ear pearcing (for earrings) that some my relatives do to their one or so year old daughters.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269017 - 11/11/2005 05:34
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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So, I am concerned that France has gone too far, but I can also see some merit to the notion that France has avoided some bad things by a matter of degree.
Yeah, things are rarely simple, are they... 
This reminds me of a case of bigotry we had here in Croatia recently. We have mandatory national photo ID cards, issued by our equivalent of DHS (police, actually). Some local police clerk refused to let some Muslim woman wear her headscarf on the photo taken for that ID. It was funny to read verbal gymnastics the guys employed when trying to explain why said Muslim girl cannot wear her headdress on ID photo, while Catholic nuns can.
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The recent political bashings aside, I find the comparison of the relative tribulations of the USA and France interesting. We have guns. They have cigarettes.
Heh.
Ah, Paris and Athens are among the last places where I could have my small cigar after a meal in a nice restaurant... Well, one has to die of something, doesn't one? And frankly, I think that the mentioned meals do more harm to me than cigar...  (In my case heart is a clear favorite, in a very little part helped by that small amount of nicotine, carbon monoxide etc; cancer is faaar beyond.)
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269018 - 11/11/2005 05:34
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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As a practicing isexual
Time out. What is a practicing isexual?
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#269019 - 11/11/2005 12:02
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: blitz]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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I think he's referring to onanism.
-Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#269020 - 11/11/2005 13:40
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: ]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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My take on the situation in France is that it´s a fierce battle between the French and the muslims
There are some studies, based on United Nations population studies, that show you might be correct except it is not a fierce battle at all. It is a sex battle... more precisely a birth battle. Supposedly birth rates in Western Europe among non-muslims is somewhat below 2 births/woman... Belgium is at 1.65 and France is below 1.85. Muslims in Western Europe have birth rates of 3-4 births/woman. Supposedly by 2050, Western Europe will have been "conquered" by Islam without a shot being fired.
Couple this with the historical marginalization of Muslims in Europe and a trend (a reaction to that marginalization) among younger Muslims to an more orthodox lifestyle and you have France in real crisis long before 2050.
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#269021 - 11/11/2005 14:15
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Now, they may all worship the same Allah, and I wouldn't be too concerned, but I'm afraid that the mullahs that prevail could be the ones who want to take away and burn all the electric guitars.
Switch to acoustic.
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#269022 - 11/11/2005 14:33
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Supposedly by 2050, Western Europe will have been "conquered" by Islam without a shot being fired.
They used to say that about Catholics, though: Catholics outbreed Protestants by a factor of about three in every generation, which, as evolutionary advantages go, is beyond colossally favourable. The entire biomass of the planet would long ago have been converted into Catholics if it were not for the broad and flowing river of people leaving the church, or at least abandoning its teachings on fecundity.
Peter
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#269023 - 11/11/2005 15:04
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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They used to say that about Catholics
The Mormon's sort of tried it in the US. One of my favorite Mark Twain Quotes:
"Our stay in Salt Lake City amounted to only two days, and therefore we had no time to make the customary inquisition into the workings of polygamy and get up the usual statistics and deductions preparatory to calling the attention of the nation at large once more to the matter. I had the will to do it. With the gushing self-sufficiency of youth I was feverish to plunge headlong and achieve a great reform here - until I saw the Mormon women. Then I was touched. My heart was wiser than my head. It warmed toward these poor, ungainly, and pathetically "homely" creatures, and as I turned to hide the generous moisture in my eyes, I said, "No - the man that married one of them has done an act of Christian charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their harsh censure - and the man that married sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence."
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#269024 - 11/11/2005 20:32
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5548
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Well, one has to die of something, doesn't one?Sure, Dragi -- die of whatever you want!  Just don't smoke your awful cigars around me and take me with you! (Juussst kidding! I am pretty confident that you would never light up in the vicnity of anyone who really objected) tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#269025 - 11/11/2005 20:39
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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I think he's referring to onanism.
-Zeke
My, my, my! You *have* been touched by His Noodly Appendage!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#269026 - 11/11/2005 23:54
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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Not to mention that these are the folks who are already cutting maternal and child health programs, medciaid for uninsured children, food stamps, welfare, etc....unborn life is sacrosanct, but once they're born, if they're poor, to hell with them (that's what we're consigning many of them to--on earth). When I see more pro-life types adopting a crack baby, or one damaged by poor maternal nutrition, or any of the lost souls in foster homes, I'll have a little more sympathy for their concern for the unborn!
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#269027 - 12/11/2005 00:10
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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The right will go after each hold-out state, piece by piece. They are already doing it with issues like"intelligent" choice/evolution...they are well organized at a grassroots level, (starting with school boards, for example). Some states will be hold-outs, but we can't ALL live in California--even if CA secedes--so we'll be back to rich or at least comfortable women going where they need to go (it once was Sweden, pre-Roe vs. Wade) and poor women will be back to having no choice but bringing another child they can't adequately feed or care for into the world. Especially, as was pointed out, since these same folks also oppose sex education and in many cases contraception.
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#269028 - 12/11/2005 00:31
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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And retroactive birth control...like for the father of 4 kids I'm working with who tried to burn the house down around his family.....or all the guys who kill their families and then themselves (why not START there?) I am back to being daily reminded why some people don't make the choice to graduate from high school, such as, both parents are in jail, they're living with their grandmother who can't get them up in the morning to come to school; their parent(s) are high on meth, they're too bruised from last night's beating to let the school nurse see them....most of us lead pretty comfortable, well-insulated lives. And even in the US, Canada, and Europe, many people don't have that luxury. These kids are just trying to SURVIVE, though why they'd want to, with the lives they lead, always amazes me.
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#269029 - 12/11/2005 00:46
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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In California, where WASPs are now the official minority, girls DO come to school in headscarves and something like burkhas, and it generally seems to work--so do a few of the teachers. Not that CA is hate-crime free, far from it, but for the most part, choice of clothing (except when too scanty) passes unremarked. Multiculturalism, separated from poverty, seems to work pretty well. And most of the men who do commit hate crimes, if not actually impoverished, feel dispossessed.
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#269030 - 12/11/2005 04:35
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: hybrid8]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Bruno: "Is being shipped off to Iraq a suitable outlet for the frustration and anger in today's youth?"
America's youth are too blissfully placated by free pornography on the Fox television network and all those drugs that "aren't really harmful"
bitt: "every time I see a "W" bumper sticker, a nearly unbridled hatred wells up in my stomach and heart, and I wonder about Yugoslavia less and less."
Gah, that's a good and frighteningly true point. That second civil war is brewing; but this time instead of a societal clash, a holy war.
Jeff: "it is a foundational problem with our country. We can’t control ourselves."
What humans can control themselves? It's a foundational problem with our species. We're all animals.
canuckInLA: "The liberal approach is to educate people so that they can make choices that don't lead to abortion, and thereby decreasing the need for abortion."
Preface: My hardline stance is for education. But I have the hunch that politicians, whether liberal or conservative, want to keep people ignorant. It nicely obscures government atrocities when citizens are flooded with social disease. And I speculate that governments (and religions) love overpopulation; more people to control.
blitz: "Time out. What is a practicing isexual?"
<ignorant> Wait, is that like iTunes? </ignorant>
Wow, time for bed before I say anything else stupid like "Do humanity a favor, spread bird flu."
P.S. kayakjazz: Well said, all of it.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#269031 - 12/11/2005 18:26
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Sure, Dragi -- die of whatever you want!
Just don't smoke your awful cigars around me and take me with you!
(Juussst kidding! I am pretty confident that you would never light up in the vicnity of anyone who really objected)
Ah, food is more likely to do me in than cigars. And, as I said in a previous thread on second-hand smoke, one doesn't fart in company, so why would smoking near someone who complains be any better?
Incidently, I find that smoking feels better in clean, slightly chilly air - perhaps it's an effect of contrast? Or perhaps I am just fooling myself, shivering on my office's balkony in shirtsleeves, with a mug of coffee and cigar? 
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269032 - 12/11/2005 18:30
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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That second civil war is brewing; but this time instead of a societal clash, a holy war.
Yeah, that is the real clash ot civilizations: organized, repressive religions vs. the civilization.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#269033 - 14/11/2005 01:00
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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That being said, you pretty clearly told us that, electorally speaking, you are pretty much aligned with the folks I call by [the religious right]. Same omnipotent god, right?
Only because I was given a binary choice. And I believe it is probably right to lump me with the religious right, but if I am aligned it is spiritually, not politically. There are plenty of things I'd vote against that "the religous right" wants as a rule, but generally I'm not given that option. I've lamented this as a dissapointing part of the process many times before.
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If a large group of people are worshiping a "one, true deity", how is it that the omnipotent deity does such a crummy job of communicating what the rules are?
I don't believe God has done a crummy job of telling us the rules; rather it is we that have put the barrier of sin between us so that we have difficulty understanding.
And there are many who claim to follow Jesus with whom I do not align myself at all, including spiritually (these very same would probably feel the same way about me). Jesus makes it very clear in the NT that just because someone claims to represent Him or doing things for Him, it doesn't mean that they are.
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You know, of course, that some folks don't accept your basic assumptions re "life of the child".
Right, which I have stated many times. But really this is off point from what I've been trying to say. My whole argument here has been that I have started with a premise and acted logically from that premise. If you disagree with my premise it's one thing, and I think that's the discussion we ought to be having, but I take exception to telling me that my actions are wrong without adressing the premise from which they flow quite naturally.
I believe a LOT of the abortion topic gets mired in highly charged accusations and self rightousness, on BOTH sides, when the dicussion really ought to be about "when does life being" and "at what point does life become a person deserving protected under the law". Because if the answer to those questions leaves with abortion taking an innocent life, it is clear that the law should not allow that. If, however, we agree that abortion is not taking an innocent life then it is equally clear that no one should tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body.
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What is almost ironic is that I think, thankfully, that you have been outflanked by (shudder) science.
I have not been outflanked by science, and if I had I wouldn't shudder about it. While Science may inform these questions, it cannot answer them because we are dealing with a moral issue. Science can tell us all about a form of life, but it is left to us to agree whether that life is worth protecting. We did not free slaves because of science, though science could give us all the clues to determine that the color of a person's skin does not change the fact he or she is a human. Many groups of people throughout history that have been unjustly hurt and killed, fiannly becoming liberated not because of science, but because people were enlightened and saw the truth of the moral issue before them.
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amateur abortions that you, on balance, seem willing to accept
"Accept" is too strong a word, I think. There are MANY wrongs in the world that I cannot stop. People are dying of aids in Africa, and while my church has built an orphenage to aid young children who've lost their parents, we do not have the power to stop the spread of HIV. We could possibly take the strong measure of killing everyone who test positive, but that is not an acceptable answer, as much as it hurts my heart to see what Aids does to these people. Similarly, I think we should do all we can for women receiving dangerous abortions, I don't see allowing the killing of innocents as being an acceptable solution.
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And how would this play out if we were talking about 2 week old babies? Would that change things? If legalizing the killing of 2 week old babies made it safer for women who did it, would we consider allowing it?
This, I would like to think, in our current society, is a false dichotomy. I'd never contemplate this, nor would I want to.
I know you wouldn't- my question is WHY you wouldn't. Protecting life only because it is ouside of the womb seems rather arbitrary to me. Is life two weeks before birth nonexistent and life two weeks after precious? My wife was born over a month premature and could have easily been aborted, yet clearly she had all of the qualities necessary for life and protection under the law- with the exception that she was in the womb rather than out of it. Would it have been OK for her parents to take her life? Under the law the answer is "yes", as long as they did it while she was still inside. I'm not OK with that, and I'm not OK with a society that allows that to happen.
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I think that your positions are based on an artificially bounded conception of life
And I think that yours are artifically bounded at birth.
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If, in the broader historical context of women, pregancy and women's right to self-determination, you are willing to argue that women shouldn't be free to employ an early-stage abortifacient like RU486, then all I can conclude is that your "life" definition is simply something based in mysticism
This all comes back to the question of the premise. When do YOU think a life becomes a human enough to be worth protecting under the law?
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269034 - 14/11/2005 01:05
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Voting for anti-abortion governments, IMHO, does nothing but prolong the problem.
Once again it's the binary choice problem. You make some good points and all I can say is that I see taking it one step at a time because that's all my binary choices afford me. If RvW gets overturned then there's a whole other set of battles, and on this I'd probably be aligned against many of my companions in "the religious right". Unfortunatly that's just the way the system works.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269035 - 14/11/2005 01:13
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: kayakjazz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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When I see more pro-life types adopting a crack baby, or one damaged by poor maternal nutrition, or any of the lost souls in foster homes, I'll have a little more sympathy for their concern for the unborn!
Agreed, but it's the stories of hipocracy that get the press. I know of many Christians with a similar outlook to myself who've adopted those very children- their stories vary rarely get told (and in one case that is very personal to me, was twisted to make the parents look bad even though they were the most unbelievably selfless and loving parents to their adopted children that I've ever met)
Even so, I agree that we can do better.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269036 - 14/11/2005 01:21
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Jeff: "it is a foundational problem with our country. We can’t control ourselves."
What humans can control themselves? It's a foundational problem with our species. We're all animals.
Well yes, kind of my point. Deomcracy is ultimately doomed (I think) because of this foundational problem with our species. If we can't control ourselves, how do we think we'll govern ourselves?
The problem is that if there is a form of government that isn't suceptible to the limits of humanity, we haven't found it. Democracy isn't perfect, but it's the best we can do. Unfortunatly, because it's the best (and I believe that), many people assume that it is perfect and the natural order of things (God ordained even), none of which is true.
Knowing the limitations of Democracy is the first step to keeping it successful. I am afraid most people in the U.S. don't even consider the limitations and dangers of Democracy- the natural result is that we fall victim to those limitations and dangers. National Bankruptcy is probably the most obvious threat and one we are realizing very quickly.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#269037 - 14/11/2005 02:44
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My wife was born over a month premature and could have easily been aborted
Assuming you mean legally aborted, you're wrong. Seven months gestation is generally considered the outside limit for legal abortion in the US. Roe v. Wade states that a fetus may not be aborted if it is viable outside the womb, even if it requires life support technology, and specifically mentions 6 to 7 months as the time when that's possible. Medical technology has improved a good deal in the intervening 32 years and earlier dates are possible now. But no one would suggest that an 8-month fetus even begins to fit in the realm of legally abortable, now, back in 1973, or when your wife was born.
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Bitt Faulk
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#269038 - 14/11/2005 05:51
Re: Is France unique?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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one doesn't fart in company
Oh. Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong... 
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