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#282121 - 28/05/2006 00:38 Determining function of each wiring harness pin
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
I finally have all the parts to install an empeg in my 2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 wagon. Many Benz from this year used the same headunit, so I thought these empeg in SLK and Pioneer in SLK instructions would work. Unfortunately, their wiring harnesses don't seem to match mine.

Is it possible to determine the function of each power/control wire? Or will the 12V line melt a voltmeter? I have no idea how to read a voltmeter or how to set it up to work. Any tips?

Are these assumptions right: 12V gives a big signal when the key turns on. Ignition sense powers weakly at that time also. Toggle seadlights to find headlight sense wire. Ground must be the thick black one. The final one must be amp sense. But... what if they have a wire that the empeg doesn't...

The wires in question are:
Grey
thick Red with White stripe
thick Brown - ground?
Yellow with Black stripe
Blue with White stripe - amp sense?

Or does anyone know where to find this wiring diagram? I've been looking for a while now with not much luck. Thanks all.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282122 - 28/05/2006 02:05 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
cushman
veteran

Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
Link to good post about wiring. Set your multimeter to DC voltage (probably 20v) and measure the wiring for current to determine constant power, accessory power, lighting indicator, etc. The article covers what's needed.
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Mark Cushman

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#282123 - 28/05/2006 14:01 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: cushman]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
Thanks, and thanks for the RCA tip in the other thread.

The big question: If I connect the wires wrong, can I fry my empeg? 12v to the amp sense line, etc? Or are there fuses to take the blow from every possible misconnection?
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282124 - 28/05/2006 16:29 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
Well, I used my multimeter to test each lead as the article suggested, but I only found the main 12V power and ground. Nothing showed 12V when I switched on the lights or the accessory power.

But then my multimeter fell apart, so maybe that was the problem all along. I never have the right tools for the job, and when I do, I don't know how to use them.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282125 - 29/05/2006 07:30 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
StigOE
addict

Registered: 27/10/2002
Posts: 568
It could be like on my Passat, where the radio is only fed constant 12V and ground, and on/off, illumination, volume, etc comes over the CAN-bus. I got the steering wheel control adapter from Pioneer for my car, which gave me switched 12V, volume, illumination, speed sense and reverse signal. It might be possible to get something similar for your car.

Stig

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#282126 - 29/05/2006 09:25 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 1956
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Have you searched around using the model code of your car (W210)? I didn't find anything real specific with a quick google, but it seems your car is CAN based (as previously suggested).
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#282127 - 29/05/2006 13:58 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: StigOE]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
Oh no, you're probably right. I'd ignored CAN, thinking it was for internal lights and windows and such. This CAN diagram doesn't show much about headlights, amps, etc... that I can understand. I've been searching with W210 also, and should start looking with the stock headunit/amp model numbers too, perhaps.

It's odd that the wiring harness has almost enough pins to match the ISO harness and they are colored similarly. I'm going to call the stock headunit manufacturer (Becker) about the pins.

Stig, was the steering wheel adapter required to allow the empeg in your car? I see a ~$500 one for my car, which I'd like to avoid.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282128 - 29/05/2006 15:34 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
StigOE
addict

Registered: 27/10/2002
Posts: 568
Quote:
Stig, was the steering wheel adapter required to allow the empeg in your car? I see a ~$500 one for my car, which I'd like to avoid.

Ouch! Mine was a hundred and some dollars, and no, it wasn't needed to get the Empeg installed, but it gave extra signals I needed for the Pioneer. Blaupunkt have a VW to ISO-interface (needed it for the antenna amplifier/adapter) with instructions on how to find the switched 12V in the dash . Don't your hopefully friendly neighbourhood Mercedes dealer have something similar?

Edit: I just checked the link you gave, and it looks like your car might use fiberoptic to transfer data, but it wasn't very clear which signals were fiber and which were electrical.
Stig


Edited by StigOE (29/05/2006 15:47)

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#282129 - 30/05/2006 01:11 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: StigOE]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
I think fiberoptic is only for the cd changer. The wiring harness seems to have 8 line-level audio inputs, 5 control wires, and another 6 wires that are probably for the integrated phone that I'll never use.

A little more reading has revealed a hack: Connect the 12V constant power and the supposed 12V switched line to make the head unit turn on. That actually makes no sense if CAN controls the switching.

Or, better yet, find a switched line somewhere off the fusebox and connect that. But dimmer, amp remote, etc are still unknown. Though that blue/white cable sure looke like amp remote power to me...

I could try my local dealer, but I don't think I'll get much. Crutchfield and local audio installers won't touch the thing. I guess I'll have to replace the amps and speakers... I was really hoping for a quick drop-in headunit swap.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282130 - 30/05/2006 03:05 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Unfortunately, their wiring harnesses don't seem to match mine. Is it possible to determine the function of each power/control wire?

My personal opinion, quoted from the usual place...

If you decide to install it yourself, the most important thing to remember is to get a proper installation kit from a stereo shop.

Installation kits usually consist of a wiring harness adapter (so you don't have to cut into the car's wiring and you don't have to guess at which wires to connect), and a set of dash mounting brackets and/or trim pieces (so that the stereo screws nicely into the dash without problems).

These kits can be found or ordered from any car stereo installation shop, or from mail-order companies such as Crutchfield.

Whatever you do, do not guess at the wiring of your car. You could blow fuses (or worse, fry your car's electronics) by trying to hook up 12 volt power to the wrong wire. You should always use the wiring harness adapter from the installation kit.


Quote:
Crutchfield and local audio installers won't touch the thing.


There's gotta be SOMEBODY who can help...
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Tony Fabris

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#282131 - 30/05/2006 06:02 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: tfabris]
sein
old hand

Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 889
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
Quote:
There's gotta be SOMEBODY who can help...

It would be worth searching a Mercedes Benz forum (maybe here?). The Skoda forums are full of people asking about how to change the standard audio, and there is a lot of information there - hopefully the Benz forums will be the same.
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Hussein

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#282132 - 30/05/2006 11:26 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: tfabris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13879
Loc: Canada
Quote:
There's gotta be SOMEBODY who can help...


Sure thing. Just drop by here with it all, and we'll trace the wires through to the speaker terminals etc.. Should take about two hours or less.

Cheers

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#282133 - 30/05/2006 21:55 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: tfabris]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
You know, out of the entire FAQ "Car installation questions" section, that's the one article that I didn't read. Since every installer I called refused to touch it, I assumed that article didn't apply. Thanks for the link.

I've been searching the Benz forums, alt.auto.mercedes and rec.audio.car. Like everything in life, if there isn't already a solution, it's probably because it can't be done.

I hoped to drop the empeg into the stock amp/speakers to save time and money. But with all the time I've spent researching, I could have learned how to design a proper full replacement system and done so. Time to switch my focus.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282134 - 30/05/2006 22:42 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
You know, out of the entire FAQ "Car installation questions" section, that's the one article that I didn't read. Since every installer I called refused to touch it, I assumed that article didn't apply. Thanks for the link.

Well, since it specifically said to go to Crutchfield or a stereo store, and you said that they wouldn't touch it, it kinda doesn't apply. I just wanted to re-iterate my opinion about not guessing at the wiring functions.

I mean, you might be able to tell what some of the wires do with a voltmeter, but not all of them. For instance, maybe a data signal line would appear to carry 12 volts when the ignition is on, but that wouldn't mean it should be hooked up to the empeg's ignition sense wire. :-)

Eventually, though, if you keep looking, you're going to find someone somewhere who's already got the specs on the wiring or who can do better reverse-engineering than just making guesses with a voltmeter. I'd take Mark up on his offer.
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Tony Fabris

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#282135 - 31/05/2006 01:05 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: tfabris]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
I would take Mark up on his offer because it'd be a cool road trip and good to see him again, but time prohibits. And in a last ditch effort to find this "easy" solution, I followed sein's link to "the other forum", which I tend to forget about.

W210 E-class amp audio input wires, 96-00 and 00-02
W210 E-class control wires, 00-02, confirmed by the apparently well known "Steve".
The install of the original requestor of the control wire info, who seems to know what he's doing.

This brings up another question. Apparently there are no switched 12V (ignition sense?), no headlight sense, and no dimmer sense wires. Kind of makes sense as the headunit amp keeps playing after I turn off the key, stopping when I take it out (annoying, but apparently stops when I open the door). Or maybe they're controled by CANBUS.

Can I get by using 12V constant power, ground, and remote amp turn on? I always pull the empeg out, so no worry of drained battery?

By the time I add a second head unit (ASAP) I'll probably have the amp and speakers replaced... if I had half a clue how to choose the proper materials for the job.

Thanks for your patience with my ramble.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282136 - 31/05/2006 01:08 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 1956
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Quote:
I would take Mark up on his offer because it'd be a cool road trip and good to see him again, but time prohibits.


I sensed some sarcasm in Mark's post...
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#282137 - 31/05/2006 04:39 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Can I get by using 12V constant power, ground, and remote amp turn on?

Yes. But you would have to remember to put the empeg into standby mode before pulling it out of the dash. If you don't, you'll get a bad POP from the amplifier and speakers.

Remember that the remote amp turn on is something that you can run yourself, from the empeg to the amplifier. So really you only need +12 and ground.

Come to think of it, if it's your own amp, you should be running a direct wire to the battery anyway, so all wiring runs would be yours.

If you're trying to use the factory amp and speakers, you're back to the same set of questions about which wires are which.
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Tony Fabris

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#282138 - 31/05/2006 11:08 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: Shonky]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13879
Loc: Canada
Quote:

I sensed some sarcasm in Mark's post...


Nope.

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#282139 - 31/05/2006 11:13 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13879
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Apparently there are no switched 12V (ignition sense?)


Somewhere, in the interior of that car, is a light bulb, or power-outlet (cigarette lighter style), or *something* that turns on when the ignition is on. Tap into that.

Cheers

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#282140 - 31/05/2006 23:44 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: mlord]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
I've actually read to tap into the cigarette lighter line. If the empeg can actually use the factory amp and speakers (and actually sounds good, which is hottly debated), I'll take that extra step to run that wire. Maybe I can tap into the headlights somehow to get the illumination sense for VFD/button dimming!

I do put the empeg into standby before turning the car off and before removing it. But now, in my Volvo, if I put it on pause and pull it out, there's no pop. I think it only pops if I remove it while it's playing, which I haven't done in a long time.

Ok, maybe this weekend I'll tackle this! Thanks for all the info.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282141 - 11/06/2006 15:07 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
Well, it works, at least with my hacked temporary test setup. I took the newsgroups advice and wired together the 12V constant and switched lines on the empeg, then connected them to the 12V constant on the car. Thus, the empeg is always on even when the key is out (which the stock unit sort of does anyway). I wonder if the amp is always on too, which is unacceptable.

Now that I know it actually works, I will run a proper switched line somehow... I have no idea how. Maybe I can run proper illumination and dimmer sense wires too.

Luckily the speaker wires matched the VW wiring harness; even the polarity. I had some good suggestions to confirm. Could I have used the battery trick even though the inputs go to a Bose amp. Still, it would require the speaker grilles off to watch the cones. It sounds good, so I'll trust that it's right.

Thanks again for all your help, everyone. Now to buy the components for the "master plan".


Attachments
283065-twistedwires.jpg (698 downloads)



Edited by FireFox31 (11/06/2006 17:19)
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282142 - 11/06/2006 20:28 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
Here are links to my write up about the install incase anyone needs this info in the future. Keywords: 2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 E class wagon aftermarket headunit install replacing Becker keeping Bose amp and speakers. Hey, the SLK320 empeg install posted here years ago is what really got me started, so maybe this will help someone.

They are both the same:
install at Benzworld
mbworld.org
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#282143 - 15/06/2006 01:53 Re: Determining function of each wiring harness pin [Re: FireFox31]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5377
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
I wonder if the amp is always on too, which is unacceptable.

The amp will be on anytime the empeg's display is on.

tanstaafl.
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