#282599 - 14/06/2006 20:01
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 11/06/2003
Posts: 384
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How can someone's rights be abridged unless we have some belief about what those rights are?
We don't need to have some belief about what those rights are, it's explictly written down. And interpreted and expanded and clarified in writing via legislative laws and judical decisions with accountability and traceability. It's right here in black and white.
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#282601 - 15/06/2006 00:56
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Murder is illegal because we believe it to be wrong.
Stealing is illegal because we believe it to be wrong.
Almost everything against the law is there because we as a society BELIEVE it to be wrong.
How can someone's rights be abridged unless we have some belief about what those rights are?
It seems to me that taking things from another individual without his consent is the basis for that act being illegal. That is empirical. There are a few "victimless" crimes here and there (which I personally believe are immoral laws), but they are fairly few and far between.
However, in no way does two men getting married take anything from you. I can guarantee that none of the rights guaranteed by this country is that you are guaranteed to agree with every decision made. Especially the ones that don't affect you.
I can totally understand why you find homosexuality icky. What I still cannot comprehend is why you think it has anything to do with you. No one getting married will affect you in any way, homo- or heterosexual. Denying gay people marriage won't change the way they live; it will only show them how much we as a society dislike them.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#282602 - 15/06/2006 07:55
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
it will only show them how much we as a society dislike them.
"Dislike them" is not strong enough a term.
How about "perceive them to be less than human."?
Or maybe "treat them as something less than our equals"?
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#282603 - 15/06/2006 09:12
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1914
Loc: London
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Quote:
Or maybe "treat them as something less than our equals"?
I think that's the most accurate description
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#282604 - 15/06/2006 10:06
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
However, in no way does two men getting married take anything from you.
All I was saying in that post is that in general the law comes from our beliefs as a society (which you agree with, I think). I was not even meaning to imply that gay marriage should be opposed based on my beliefs, becuse that's not my view. I wasn't really addressing gay marraige at all, more this side thread that got started about whether US citiziens have the freedom to their beliefs and how the government is alloud to interfere with those beliefs.
I agree that two men getting maried does not affect me. How people choose to couple is a personal thing that really doesn't affect anyone else but those invovled. So why should the government have rules about it?
I think it IS overstepping the role of the government to definine these relationships and what is/isn't permissable.
Ideas about what marriage is or isn't are personal. You cannot observe the world through science and decide, yes that's a marriage and that isn't. Marriage is a decidedly human thing, and what it means is signficantly different from couple to couple, yet many are passionate about it just the same.
For the government to step in and start clarifiying this definition in any way is to disenfranchise that group of people whom disagree. Sometimes this is unavoidable- there must be a ruling so that action may be taken. On this issue that is not necessary. It is very possible to give heterosexual couples, gay couples and polyamorus relationiships the same rights under the law without having to deem any of their beliefs wrong under the law.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#282605 - 15/06/2006 18:26
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
For the government to step in and start clarifiying this definition in any way is to disenfranchise that group of people whom disagree.
Isn't this exactly what they're trying to do by attempting a constitutional amendment defining marriage? The very thing that started this thread?
I thought you were disagreeing with the initial point of this thread. It sounds like you're agreeing with it here. I'm confused.
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#282606 - 15/06/2006 18:57
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
I thought you were disagreeing with the initial point of this thread. It sounds like you're agreeing with it here.
No, I wasn't diagreeing with the initial point, which is why I took so long to get invovled. I started with the notion that many conservatives are not upset by gay people getting married, but rather that the state would re-define a belief that they are very passionate about (their view of what marriage is). But in saying this, I also tried to point out that I understand it from the other side, and that just because I have a certain belief about marriage doesn't mean that others should be required to agree. Where I end up is that the government should be moving out of the marriage defining business altogether. So my stance really sums up to this:
-I do not agree with the constitutional ammendment, nor do I really think it has much of a chance of passing.
-I would oppose an ammendment or law which recognizes gay marriages legally.
-I would support support civil unions that give homosexuals the same rights that a married couple has.
-I would most like to see turning current marriages into civil unions and getting government out of the marriage business altogether in an effort to prevent a "2nd class citizen" culture from being sanctioned by the government.
Edited by JeffS (15/06/2006 19:09)
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#282607 - 15/06/2006 19:09
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
I do not agree with the constitutional ammendment, nor do I really think it has much of a chance of passing. I would, however, oppose an ammendment or law which recognizes gay marriages legally. I would support support civil unions that give homosexuals the same rights that a married couple has.
Jeff, this statement contradicts your claim that you feel the government should not define marriage. By defining what marriage is not, you are defining marriage.
How is saying "marriage is NOT between gay individuals" not equivalent with "marriage is ONLY one man and one woman" ?
This is nothing more than semantics.
_________________________
Dave
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#282608 - 15/06/2006 19:15
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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First off, I changed my post a bit to be a little more clear, but didn't get to it before your response. The content is still there, though. Sorry about that. Quote:
Jeff, this statement contradicts your claim that you feel the government should not define marriage. By defining what marriage is not, you are defining marriage.
I do feel the government should not define marriage. The problem right now is that it already does (which is why gay marriages are not recognized legally). Hence the reason for my last comment that what I really want is for there to be no marriages at all, only civil unions. That, I think, is the only solution fair to all.
Edited by JeffS (15/06/2006 19:18)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#282609 - 15/06/2006 19:20
Re: Finally, America is safe!
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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I think you're right. They should simply remove all benefits from marriage (tax, legal rights, etc.) and let people have whatever type of civil union they desire (which would deal with all the benefits once held by marriage).
The last part of your comment was not left out to intentionally skew your meaning. I think your most recent post clarifies things quite well.
_________________________
Dave
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