#288457 - 19/10/2006 18:17
Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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SWMBO's sister is getting an Ipod Nano for her birthday in a couple of weeks so I was duly asked to perform the necessary installation work on their PC to make it work. Not a problem I thought..... Well, I was wrong.
The Nano arrives in a smart little plastic box containing the headphones, USB lead and what looks like a dock adaptor. So far so good..... plug the unit into one of spare USB ports, the PC recognises the device, a spot of hard disc grinding later and the Ipod is mounted as a drive in Windows.
Great, now where's the iTunes install disc? Nowhere to be seen, okay the box is a bit on the small side even for a CD single. So maybe they put on Nano itself so you could install off then delete. No such luck.
The PC isn't connected to the 'net, it will be soon, but for the time being there isn't even dialup. Not that I think it should be an issue, its owner simply wants to rip a bunch of CDs and transfer them over. Why should she need a net connection to even make use of a £100 piece of consumer electronics? Even a £5 network card comes with a CD containing the drivers.
They obviously blow an image into the thing at the factory, why can't they put a copy of the 'current' iTunes on it too?
As a result I've had to abort the install and retreat homewards to download a copy of iTunes and take it over on a USB memory stick. Good job it wasn't her birthday today or she'd have been really pissed off!
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#288458 - 19/10/2006 18:44
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Well, not that I want to defend Apple, but I don't think any iPod has ever come with installation files or a manual. They expect you to get all that online, presumably so they can make sure that you're getting the latest version.
Also, how exactly was she planning on ripping the CDs with no internet connection? Was all the information going to be entered manually? That seems like more of something to complain about.
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Matt
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#288459 - 19/10/2006 18:49
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Also, how exactly was she planning on ripping the CDs with no internet connection? Was all the information going to be entered manually? That seems like more of something to complain about.
Manually enter the info for the time being.... Whilst using the 'net would make the process easier. I believe you should at least be able to start using the product you've just forked out a load of money for without having to recourse to the 'net.
I think SWMBO's 4th gen came with a CD.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#288460 - 19/10/2006 19:04
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I might be wrong about the CD. Still, I think they want you to be using the latest software, and as you've pointed out they wouldn't be able to fit it into the slick packaging they ship those in (although one of those credit card CDs might have fit).
In the past I think I was more surprised that they didn't include a manual. I don't care what people say, the iPod is not the greatest user interface in the world. I think you could ship a Tivo without a manual, but not an iPod. I would be able to figure it out, but my mom needed something to show her how to operate her new gadget.
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Matt
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#288461 - 19/10/2006 19:30
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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My 5th gen had an install disc. And yeah... it would definitely make sense to put the iTunes install on the iPod so that when it mounts, you can just install from there. Seems pretty damn obvious actually... wonder why they don't.
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#288462 - 19/10/2006 19:43
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Dignan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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I entered about 130 CD's info manually because the only windows machine I had at the time was not going to be connected to the 'net.
It isn't that much of an issue, and it means the tags are always right, unlike CDDB or FreeDB.
I'm with Andy on this - I don't want applications to have to connect out. It implies bad design if there isn't a standalone version - why should I need connectivity to run a consumer gadget. Is nonsense!
(can you tell I have not yet seen an ipod variant I like and am not going to get one until it can actually do the things I want it to....?)
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#288463 - 19/10/2006 19:48
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
Good job it wasn't her birthday today or she'd have been really pissed off!
Who? SWMBO or her sister?
Why would anyone get pissed off about receiving a birthday gift?
I hope you're not serious- or I hope that I've misunderstood.
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10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#288464 - 19/10/2006 20:21
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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My iPod Nano (old plastic scratch attractor version) and the iPod shuffle gumstick versions came with manuals, and iTunes on a CD. And I remember my friends first gen, second gen, and 4th gen iPods coming with the same things. In each case, the manual is pretty small, but explains how to turn it on and off, control the music, and to use iTunes to add music to it.
I can understand the desire to shrink the packaging like they did with the new Nano, but it is odd they didn't load iTunes on there. Maybe they manufactured the devices before they had a final version of iTunes 7 ready, as apparently this last round of iPods was rushed to beat the Zune announcements.
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#288465 - 19/10/2006 21:37
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Good job it wasn't her birthday today or she'd have been really pissed off!
Who? SWMBO or her sister?
Why would anyone get pissed off about receiving a birthday gift?
I hope you're not serious- or I hope that I've misunderstood.
Her sister, she'd be pissed off that all it's currently good for is looking at!
Rather like getting a camera and finding you can't take pictures with it until you've connected to the 'net.
The only person she'd be pissed off with is Steve Jobs, not that she'd know who he is!
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#288466 - 19/10/2006 21:55
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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I would take the whole thing even further, why should you have to load on iTunes at all!
You should be able to load on music you own in any method you like, not tied to an app which I personally find to be pretty crap at managing 40Gb+ of music.
Baah Humbug Apple! I think a driver CD is a standard thing, you shouldn't need an internet connection just to listen to music you already own!
Cheers
Cris.
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#288467 - 20/10/2006 07:11
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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LOL, why do y'all always say "SWMBO"? "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (I had to look that one up). Don't tell me you actually "obey" your wife? 
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#288468 - 20/10/2006 08:53
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: ]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Quote:
LOL, why do y'all always say "SWMBO"?
Ooooh d33zy you're slipping up!
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#288469 - 20/10/2006 09:11
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
LOL, why do y'all always say "SWMBO"?
Ooooh d33zy you're slipping up!
Haha, you guys are nuts. This d33zy fellow apparently isn't the only person in the world that uses "y'all". 
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#288470 - 20/10/2006 09:26
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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At first I thought that maybe you ended up with a returned Nano that somebody had taken the CD. My original Nano came in a box big enough to fit a full sized CD in but obviously you can't shoe horn that into the new Nano packaging. Looking at the Nano page at Apple shows that they really do expect you to be able to download a copy of iTunes from the internet to get it to work. It is a 34MB download as well so I guess they expect you to have broadband or cheap internet...
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#288471 - 20/10/2006 10:23
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: tman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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Don't be silly. Poor rural people with dial up don't buy Apple products. They're too busy pitching manure to bother with new-fangled gizmos like that.
The real answer: 2,000,000 x $0.02 = $40,000. Why should they give that away?
For all the hippie funk that sticks to Apple, they're a business as greedy as any other.
-Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#288472 - 20/10/2006 10:29
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
My iPod Nano (old plastic scratch attractor version) and the iPod shuffle gumstick versions came with manuals, and iTunes on a CD. And I remember my friends first gen, second gen, and 4th gen iPods coming with the same things. In each case, the manual is pretty small, but explains how to turn it on and off, control the music, and to use iTunes to add music to it.
Interesting. I stand corrected! I do know that my father's iPod and the iPods of a couple of coworkers didn't come with a manual at all, and frankly I don't think the manual you're describing is enough.
At any rate, for me this is all a moot point, and I agree with Cris completely. You should have a choice as to how you load your music. Personally, I will never own an MP3 player that isn't a mass storage compliant device. This is one of the reasons I'm so impressed by Archos. Since the AV500, you get to choose whether the player is a mass storage device, or can synch via Windows Media Player, and it's not a choice you have to make and then live with, you can switch back and forth any time. I'm not sure why no other companies (that I know of) have done anything like that.
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Matt
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#288473 - 20/10/2006 11:11
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I think Apple knows their market pretty well. Features like mass storage compliance aren't a big deal because it's cheap to buy yourself a USB memory stick. Also, keep in mind that Apple has all these Apple stores. I bet if you walk into one and say "hey, I don't have an Internet connection and I need iTunes" that they'll burn it onto a CD for you at the store (and/or offer you the opportunity to get yourself a shiny new Mac).
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#288474 - 20/10/2006 11:17
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I just bought an 80GB iPod - no CD even though it comes in CD sized packaging. It *does* come with a printed manual, though!
I guess Apple save about $5m a year by not including a CD, assuming they pay 0.25c for a pressed and printed disc.
Rob
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#288475 - 20/10/2006 11:24
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I think Apple knows their market pretty well.
Oh, I know they do. I don't care if they stick to their ways, and I don't care if everyone follows, like they have so far. I'm just saying I'll never buy one.
Quote:
Features like mass storage compliance aren't a big deal because it's cheap to buy yourself a USB memory stick.
Okay...uh...I think you've missed the point. I'm not saying that mass storage is essential in an MP3 player for storing data and stuff, I'm saying I want that for music management. That's what I get from an Archos device. Data storage is a bonus.
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Matt
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#288476 - 20/10/2006 12:10
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I just bought an 80GB iPod - no CD even though it comes in CD sized packaging. It *does* come with a printed manual, though!
I guess Apple save about $5m a year by not including a CD, assuming they pay 0.25c for a pressed and printed disc.
Rob
I've kinda missed the whole point here: what does one need the CD for, anyway?
You just plug the thing in, it connects as a standard mass-storage device, you drag/drop some mp3s onto it, and unplug it again.
Nice standard interface, so custom/proprietary software is not needed.
Where to get mp3s? Lots of sites download them, lots of OSs have rip/encode software. Most people already have a huge mp3 collection before they even buy a player.
????
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#288477 - 20/10/2006 12:23
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Personally, I will never own an MP3 player that isn't a mass storage compliant device.
You, sir, lie. I know for a fact that you own one right now.
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Bitt Faulk
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#288478 - 20/10/2006 12:36
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
I've kinda missed the whole point here: what does one need the CD for, anyway?
You just plug the thing in, it connects as a standard mass-storage device, you drag/drop some mp3s onto it, and unplug it again.
Where? There's no music/mp3 folder in the filesystem. There's a calendar folder and contacts folder but no music folder.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#288479 - 20/10/2006 13:21
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Where? There's no music/mp3 folder in the filesystem. There's a calendar folder and contacts folder but no music folder.
My Nano (long story, it never gets used!) has a partition on it so I can use it as a storage device, but any tunes stored there are not playable on the Nano, they have to be loaded on via iTunes.
Cheers
Cris.
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#288480 - 20/10/2006 14:41
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Where? There's no music/mp3 folder in the filesystem. There's a calendar folder and contacts folder but no music folder.
My Nano (long story, it never gets used!) has a partition on it so I can use it as a storage device, but any tunes stored there are not playable on the Nano, they have to be loaded on via iTunes.
Ahh.. really. Mmm. Okay, I've never actually used an Apple iPod, but just kinda assumed (wrongly, it seems) that the whole point of doing a mass-storage interface was so one could just dump the files onto and they'd work. Like my C$80 cheapie nano-clone does it.
Cheers
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#288481 - 20/10/2006 14:45
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Basically the iPod works a lot like the empeg does. Files are renamed and stashed away on the hard drive while all the real data the player uses is in a database. The main difference is that the empeg rebuilds the database, but with the iPod only iTunes can rebuild it. MSC allows people to store other files on the iPod, and also allows Apple to avoid having to write their own drivers for multiple platforms. Instead iTunes can just go out and look for the drive that is an iPod.
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#288483 - 20/10/2006 15:25
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
Personally, I will never own an MP3 player that isn't a mass storage compliant device.
You, sir, lie. I know for a fact that you own one right now.
*oops* 
Forgot about that.... oh well, I've lost all credibility now 
And as the saying goes, "never say never." Perhaps one day Apple will release that video iPod of legend, and I will be tempted enough to purchase it. Even if I do, I'll feel dirty every time I load up iTunes.
And Mark, no, unfortunately the iPod will not work that way. That's why I was going on my diatribe about mass storage compliant devices. If you're ever in the market for an MP3 player, you might want to research if it works that way (if that's what you like). A good number of MP3 players are not mass storage compliant. I don't believe the Creative ones are, for instance.
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Matt
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#288484 - 20/10/2006 15:27
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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We already have two (completely different) portable flash-based mp3 players here. Both use mass-storage interfaces, and both just require that we dump the .mp3 files onto them with "cp" (or drag'n'drop in a GUI). If we want some structure, we just create subdirectories ("folders" in a GUI). Utter simplicity.
Cheers
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#288485 - 20/10/2006 15:35
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
We already have two (completely different) portable flash-based mp3 players here. Both use mass-storage interfaces, and both just require that we dump the .mp3 files onto them with "cp" (or drag'n'drop in a GUI). If we want some structure, we just create subdirectories ("folders" in a GUI). Utter simplicity.
Exactly, I much prefer that method.
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Matt
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#288486 - 20/10/2006 15:40
Re: Ipod Nano Rant (sort of)
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
We already have two (completely different) portable flash-based mp3 players here. Both use mass-storage interfaces, and both just require that we dump the .mp3 files onto them with "cp" (or drag'n'drop in a GUI). If we want some structure, we just create subdirectories ("folders" in a GUI). Utter simplicity.
All the 'cheapies' I've had use exactly the same method. Although their navigation tools consisted of a simple A-Z list of the files that were in each folder. No biggie, just put the files in the right place to begin with.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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