#290542 - 05/12/2006 21:38
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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No, that is discrimination. Use your dictionary.
Maybe we should study the intelligence of American rednecks transplanted to the Netherlands.
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Bitt Faulk
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#290543 - 05/12/2006 21:45
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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The correlation between race and intelligence and most other such things is circumstantial and a product of environment, culture, history, oppression, etc, not of skin color. I don't see any convincing evidence that if every race started with a clean slate and was educated equally that one would come out as superior to others... and that likely can't be proved.
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#290544 - 05/12/2006 21:50
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Quote:
Coincidence? Racism? No, fact. It's not a myth that Jews held a disproportionately high number of well-paying jobs in pre-WWII Germany. Does that mean we should try to hold them back? Or should we just put them all in gas chambers for being so smart?
No, it means that historically they've had an environment and culture more conducive to higher learning and education.
Yes or No... you are saying that purely based on ethnicity all things else being equal, you think a black American will be less intelligent and have less aptitude to learn than white person?
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#290545 - 05/12/2006 21:59
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: loren]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Yes or No... you are saying that purely based on ethnicity all things else being equal, you think a black American will be less intelligent and have less aptitude to learn than white person?
No. I think culture is the main influence, and I believe there are problems with black culture.
Now let me ask you... you believe in evolution, right? Yes or no: Do you think it's plausible that whites are more intelligent than blacks, due to whites having migrated north thousands of years ago, and only the more intelligent ones could survive the brutal winter? Natural selection, right?
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#290546 - 05/12/2006 22:42
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
Honestly, I can't believe that you're actually arguing the point that black people are stupid and lazy.
I'm completely dumbfounded.
Bitt, I didn’t say that and I’m not going to get into a debate with you because I concede to your higher debating skills.
All I’m saying is there is some truth to racial tendencies. If you don’t want to believe the statistics (you look them up, or infer them from you own life experiences) then so be it. I believe in solid fact and averages.
I am not anti-black or anti any other race. I just have my own opinions about the human animal.
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#290547 - 05/12/2006 22:55
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Quote:
Now let me ask you... you believe in evolution, right? Yes or no: Do you think it's plausible that whites are more intelligent than blacks, due to whites having migrated north thousands of years ago, and only the more intelligent ones could survive the brutal winter? Natural selection, right?
Plausibility doesn't make it fact. Yes it's plausible. Though I'm sure that argument would be shot down by an socio-evolutionary scientist, which I am not. By that line of thinking it's also plausible that the "migrating whites" are dumber for migrating North to the cold and not returning where the climate was more hospitable.
The entire point of all of this, as I see it, is that broad generalizations and assumptions based on race, even if you COULD prove that a certain race has more IQ points due purely to race and nothing else, helps none of us in the broader sense of society and only aids ignorance and divisive actions that further race relation problems everywhere. These lines of thinking lead to slavery and genocide. Do you at least see that?
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#290548 - 05/12/2006 22:59
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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You explicitly said: Quote:
Why is it such a stretch to say some races (on average) are smarter than others or more inclined to work.
Your clear implication being that you suggest that some races are dumber and/or lazier. I'm unsure how this is not an argument to that point.
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Bitt Faulk
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#290549 - 05/12/2006 23:07
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
For the subject of Race vs. IQ, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_IQ
It's going to be very hard to convince me that IQ tests are not in any way culturally biased.
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#290550 - 06/12/2006 00:34
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: loren]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
By that line of thinking it's also plausible that the "migrating whites" are dumber for migrating North to the cold and not returning where the climate was more hospitable.
Immediately thought of the guys on Ark B.
/end levity
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10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#290551 - 06/12/2006 02:13
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
Maybe we should study the intelligence of American rednecks transplanted to the Netherlands.
Nomination for "Quote of the Year". Good one, Bitt. As a lazy upper middle class American who contributes barely anything to society, I'm out of here; this thread is a mess.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#290552 - 06/12/2006 03:20
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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No to get sucked into the race debate, but something tickled me on that wikipedia article. Quote:
James R. Flynn discovered the Flynn effect, that average IQ scores are increasing worldwide.
Now, IQ is a measure of a person's intellect as compared to the intellect of his peers. A 4 year old child with an IQ of 150 is supposedly as smart as a 6 year old with an IQ of 100. If his IQ were 175, he'd be as smart a a 7 year old. So, how does EVERYONE'S IQ get higher? Impossible by the very nature of the definition of IQ.
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#290553 - 06/12/2006 04:19
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
But to say that a black man is more likely to commit a crime because he is black is ignorant, racist and wrong.
The very statistics you seem to agree with prove exactly that.
You like calling people ignorant, but I don't think you know what that word means. You like ignoring facts because you don't like the truth they uncover.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#290554 - 06/12/2006 04:45
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
You like calling people ignorant, but I don't think you know what that word means. You like ignoring facts because you don't like the truth they uncover.
It is you who seem to be ignorant of the difference between correlation and causation. Here's some help. In a nutshell, it is a logical fallacy to take statistics correlating crime with skin color and draw the conclusion that someone is more likely to commit a crime *because* of their skin color.
Matt actually addressed this in the post you've selectively quoted from. You'd do well to go back and address the rest of his post.
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#290555 - 06/12/2006 04:55
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
WOW. Thanks for the REALLY interesting factual information!!!
Do you think that black people commit crimes BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK? Those statistics are total bullshit. POOR, disadvantaged, uneducated people commit the majority of the crimes in this country. Now you may want to ask, WHY are so many blacks living in poor areas in this country? Probably because of ignorant fools like you.
Typical liberal retardism. Someone else's failure is magically my fault because I'm successful. Quite the contrary. I'm the one paying their f*cking welfare check everytime they knock-up an unmarried 15 year old. I'm the one paying for their food stamps because they don't feel like getting a job to pay for their own food. If it weren't for me, and the millions of other hard-working americans, the bottom-feeders wouldn't even be alive.
I suppose you also think it's the USA's and Europe's fault that Africa is dirt poor. Every road, bridge, and building in Africa was built by the West. Every drop of modern medicine in Africa comes from the West. Ever noticed how their clothes always match early-1990's fashion styles -- that's cause they were all donated by the West. Who turned South Africa into *the* most successful African country ever -- Western settlers.
Now please explain to me how a poor man's misfortunes are my fault.
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#290556 - 06/12/2006 05:43
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: lectric]
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old hand
Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
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Quote:
Now, IQ is a measure of a person's intellect as compared to the intellect of his peers.
To be fair, IQ is an approval rating by psychiatrists. As an engineer, I'm sure I can write an IQ test that would rate most psychiatrists as morons. The very idea that intelligence can be boiled down to one number is idiotic.
My daughters will never take an IQ test.
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#290558 - 06/12/2006 08:34
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: Schido]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Interesting turn to this thread, are any of the participants anything other than "white/european" in ethnicity? (If there is such a thing)
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#290559 - 06/12/2006 11:46
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
You like calling people ignorant, but I don't think you know what that word means. You like ignoring facts because you don't like the truth they uncover.
It is you who seem to be ignorant of the difference between correlation and causation. Here's some help. In a nutshell, it is a logical fallacy to take statistics correlating crime with skin color and draw the conclusion that someone is more likely to commit a crime *because* of their skin color.
Yeah, I never said black skin = lust for crime. That's something ithoughti wishes I said. I suppose if what I quoted above was saying "But to say that a black man is more likely to commit a crime is ignorant, racist and wrong.", everything would be fine with you.
Quote:
Matt actually addressed this in the post you've selectively quoted from. You'd do well to go back and address the rest of his post.
Very well then...
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Wow Rob, I like you, but you are saying some really ignorant shit in this thread.
Be prepared to not like me because you and I will never agree.
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I don't have "White Guilt".
Oh no?
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And I never said his statistics were not correct in numbers, I disagree with the conclusions that people draw because of them.
I live in the real world where the statistics match exactly what I see happening. I don't have to draw conclusions. People's actions draw them for me.
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It means NOTHING when you say that "black people commit most crimes" while that may be statistically true...
Being statistically true means it's true.
Quote:
...their commiting of crimes has nothing to do with the color of their skin (in an absolute sense) and almost everything to do with every other reason.
I never said skin color determines how people act. Skin color usually will determine who you hang out with and look up to, and these are usually people of your color.
Blacks often look up to rappers that promote a thug-like lifestyle, drinking constantly, multiple sex partners, and using improper grammar.
At the same time, white kids these days appear to emulate the kids on The OC or Laguna Beach.
Both cases are unfortunate, but I'd rather be facing a bitchy, spoiled kid in a dark alley than someone that idolizes Suge Knight and 50-Cent.
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Of course, all too often their situation is indirectly influenced because of their color.
If we keep making it easier to live without working, that's never going to change.
Quote:
But to say that a black man is more likely to commit a crime because he is black is ignorant, racist and wrong.
Again, I never said black people commit more crime simply because their skin is black. Of course there are more factors at play.
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Do you REALLY think that anyone wants to live in a poor neighborhood?
I think I already answered this question in a reply to another one of your posts.
Quote:
and your comment about Asians and others coming to this country and running conveinence stores?? What the hell are you even trying to say?
I think I made it perfectly clear the first time, but I will elaborate. Most people (black or white) would consider working in a convenience store to be a shitty job. I know it varies, but in this area, almost all of these stores are owned by first generation immigrants from India, Pakistan, Philippines, Slavic countries, etc...
It seems to me that many people on welfare would rather not take these types of jobs/opportunities. They're much more comfortable doing nothing all day and getting paid for it.
Quote:
Are you implying that blacks are poor because they are lazy?
If you give anyone enough money to get by (and purchase flashy clothes and bling) for doing nothing, of course they're not going to be motivated to get a real job.
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Did you think before you sat down at your keyboard?
Yes
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I don't know if you are trying to be offensive, but it's working on me.
I am what I am. I don't think anything I said is incorrect, but your PC hangups might see things differently. I know when we met, it was about 30-45 minutes west of Boston which happens to be very white. My family and friends live and work in and around New York City. All crimes committed against them have been by black men.
- My 85 year old aunt was mugged at knife-point in The Bronx in broad daylight.
- My friend was mugged and beaten over the head by a gang of four guys while walking home from work in Edgewater, NJ. He had to go to the hospital.
- My family's store in Times Square (a reasonably safe neighborhood) was robbed at gunpoint by a gang of five men during regular business hours. Would you like your Grandfather, aunt and uncle to have a gun in their face?
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#290560 - 06/12/2006 12:20
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: loren]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
The entire point of all of this, as I see it, is that broad generalizations and assumptions based on race, even if you COULD prove that a certain race has more IQ points due purely to race and nothing else, helps none of us in the broader sense of society and only aids ignorance and divisive actions that further race relation problems everywhere. These lines of thinking lead to slavery and genocide. Do you at least see that?
You are correct. What baffles me is how upset people get over the fact that someone has a different belief than they do or draws different conclusions from the same facts. This is something far less tangible than skin color but in the past has caused wars and the deaths of countless people. I guess everyone should just go through life talking about the weather, much safer.
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#290561 - 06/12/2006 13:16
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: robricc]
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old hand
Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
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Quote:
. All crimes committed against them have been by black men.
You do realize that if you lived in an all white place, that every crime committed against you would be at the hands of white people.
I'm sorry for your family's unfortunate experiences. You are revealing yourself as a closet racist however. I feel sorry for you.
I don't want to argue about this stuff anymore. But I'm very happy that several of the people on this board that I respect highly, seem to agree with me. I'm not nearly as eloquent as most of them however, and I tend to get a bit more emotional about the subject and resort to name calling. So with that, I'll stop.
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//matt
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#290562 - 06/12/2006 13:41
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
You do realize that if you lived in an all white place, that every crime committed against you would be at the hands of white people.
I do live in a largely white community and have had no crimes committed against me.
Quote:
You are revealing yourself as a closet racist however.
It is what it is and it's not going to change.
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I feel sorry for you.
Please don't.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#290563 - 06/12/2006 14:39
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: robricc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I know that I'm gonna give myself a label here, but in New Orleans, there are certainly places in the city that you just don't go to. I'll let you guess the demographics of these areas. New Orleans is now the murder capitol of the US (we just passed Compton because of our drop in population by over half, while the murder rate remains the same). It is extremely evident if you watch the news that the murders are taking place in the same areas. Constantly. Since I moved here, I can only remember one instance of a shootout with police perpetrated by a white guy and he was absolutely certifiable. Yeah, white folks around here will occasionally kill each other, but it's a VERY small percentage.
I do, however, believe that the vast majority of the crime is drug and or gang related. I also believe that it is a cultural problem, not a race problem. More specifically, it's a class problem. Those with almost nothing to lose are far more likely to commit a crime.
In other words, I don't believe that blacks are genetically more prone to violence, however, because of their situation, certain blacks, at least around here, are the ones exhibiting violent behavior. How to fix it? Beats me. If I could figure that out, we could save our society billions if not trillions.
I would also point out another weirdness I've encountered. When I went to college, one of my best friends freshman year was a black guy named Keith. Really cool guy, fun to be around. But something happened sophomore year. If we were hanging out, and another black guy showed up, his attitude toward me completely changed. It was as if he was expected to behave a certain way toward white people. It was..... odd. Especially coming from him, whom I felt I knew well. Shortly after, he joined a black fraternity and he ceased hanging out with me completely. It actually bothered me quite a bit.
That brings me to another point. How is it OK to have a black-only fraternity? Is that not racism right there? If not, then why is it racist to start a white-only fraternity? I'm not trying to bait anyone, but seriously, isn't this causing a deeper rift? I mean, BET is fine, but let there be a WET channel. Whooo, think of the shitstorm.
At my college, you had to score a 19 on the ACT to be accepted if you were white, but a 17 if you were black. Huh? How does that help anyone? Take it a step further, College is tough enough if you're on an even playing field. If you're behind your classmates when you start, you're much more likely to fail. If you fail, now you have a significant amount of debt with nothing to show for it. IMHO, this is NOT helping the guy with a 17 on his ACT. He'd be much better going to a school where the mean ACT score is 16. Meanwhile, there are people that score 19 and better that get rejected because their slots are being filled by people with 17's. That isn't fair to them either. Ah well.
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#290564 - 06/12/2006 15:58
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: larry818]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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As a long term member of Mensa, I can honestly say that the testing doesn't prove anything other than one's ability to take Mensa tests.
And most folks I know if asked to come up with a word to describe me probably would not use 'intelligent'
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#290565 - 06/12/2006 16:54
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Fine. If your argument is that you want to assume every black man you see is a criminal, feel free.
Personally, I'd be more inclined to base my judgments on things that people have control over, clothing and demeanor being prime criteria. A smart criminal would wear a suit and comport himself well, but criminals are not generally known for their intelligence.
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Bitt Faulk
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#290566 - 06/12/2006 16:56
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Fine. If your argument is that you want to assume every black man you see is a criminal, feel free.
Did I say that somewhere?
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#290567 - 06/12/2006 16:58
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Then what are you saying? You seem to be arguing that assuming a black man is a criminal is more accurate than not.
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Bitt Faulk
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#290568 - 06/12/2006 17:10
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Then what are you saying? You seem to be arguing that assuming a black man is a criminal is more accurate than not.
That's absolutely not even close to anything I said. If you wanted to draw a conclusion like that it would be more like: A black man is a criminal more often than a white man.
This is all based on the validity of statistics that Billy posted like 10 pages back that nobody seems to have a problem with.
I also found it rather amusing that all of this was started when ithoughti scolded someone for describing someone that could be a thief as "African American." According to him, race should have no part in the description of a person doing a certain act.
Last night he says this:
Quote:
I DARE you to tell my black PhD student gf that her race is inferior to any other race. Go ahead, I DARE you. Ignorant prick.
How dare he describe his girlfriend's race! I AM OUTRAGED!!!!!!!!!
I guess describing someone's race is ok when the action being taken (in this case, getting a PhD) is anything but a crime.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#290569 - 06/12/2006 17:30
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Fine. Whatever. I'm done arguing with you racist bastards.
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Bitt Faulk
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#290570 - 06/12/2006 17:55
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
Fine. Whatever. I'm done arguing with you racist bastards.
I thought racist bastards were the "name callers." Seems around here it’s the other way around.
Whatever happened to - I don't agree with you but I respect your right to your opinion.
It also seems that around here people think less of you if you don’t agree with them.
Diversity is truly not accepted here. What is expected is that someone posts something and everyone else says “Yea, that’s right” heaven forbid if you say otherwise. OK lets all lock step march… L,R, L, R
Oh yea, I might fit your definition of a racist but I’m not a bastard. I was born after my parents (who were of the opposite sex) married in a church that worships God. I might as well hit all the sore spots 
Edited by Redrum (06/12/2006 18:02)
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