#291339 - 12/12/2006 13:53
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I thought that was an atomic wedgie.
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Bitt Faulk
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#291340 - 12/12/2006 14:10
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Yeah, thats an Atomic Wedgie. It works well in cartoons, but if you try it in real life it turns out a bit like this. Yup, he's holding on to that guys elastic, and that grey material around his waist is/was his underwear. Students eh.
Edited by sein (12/12/2006 14:13)
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#291341 - 12/12/2006 14:18
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Bread baking -> Dutch ovens (pots) -> Dutch ovens (methane entrapment) -> atomic wedgies (genital entrapment) -> ??? -> profit!
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#291342 - 12/12/2006 15:45
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: sein]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Hmm - in the icy wastes of northern Scotland none of those terms were in common parlance. Our name for a wedgie was a Ganjj, and of the folks I have asked, no-one has admitted to knowing anything about a dutch oven...
Too sheltered as kids, ya think?
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#291343 - 12/12/2006 15:51
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: frog51]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Reverse Wedgie = Melvin
The Melvin was the feared form of retribution on my grade school grounds.
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#291344 - 13/12/2006 16:56
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob.
You can also put the cast-iron casserole in a firepit, and cover it with charcoal. Sadly, apartment landlords tend to frown on firepits in the kitchen, so I can't do this regardless. 
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#291346 - 13/12/2006 18:24
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: Robotic]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob.
You can also put the cast-iron casserole in a firepit, and cover it with charcoal. Sadly, apartment landlords tend to frown on firepits in the kitchen, so I can't do this regardless.
How naive! You're supposed to build the fire out in the parking lot!
Sheesh!
um, hello? what the heck do you use your bath tub for?
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#291347 - 14/12/2006 23:45
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lastdan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob.
You can also put the cast-iron casserole in a firepit, and cover it with charcoal. Sadly, apartment landlords tend to frown on firepits in the kitchen, so I can't do this regardless.
How naive! You're supposed to build the fire out in the parking lot!
Sheesh!
um, hello? what the heck do you use your bath tub for?
Growing wood for kindling. Duh!
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#291348 - 17/12/2006 16:27
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Behold, loaf #3:  This was a half-wheat, half-white loaf. It was awfully warm in Houston yesterday (80 degrees farenheit or more; where else in the U.S. are you running the A/C in the middle of "winter"?). This caused the dough to rise much faster than normal. It was ready to go in 12 hours instead of the usual 18 hours. I ended up tossing the dough in the fridge for the night and baking it in the morning. Hellbent on getting the internal temperature right, I had the misfortune of discovering that my damn temperature probe has gone belly-up (that's the second one that's died on me in three years), so I just ran for a full hour in the oven (versus 50 minutes last time). The crust came out a bit dark, but the inside was exactly what I wanted. (Note to self: try lower temperature and longer baking time on the next loaf.)
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#291349 - 18/12/2006 12:42
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Check to make sure you don't just need a new probe.
Also, the high in Raleigh today is supposed to be 75, and we're over 6 degrees further north than you are.
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Bitt Faulk
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#291350 - 18/12/2006 12:46
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
It was awfully warm in Houston yesterday (80 degrees farenheit or more; where else in the U.S. are you running the A/C in the middle of "winter"?).
I don't know, but it was nearing 70 yesterday in DC. We had to open the windows last night because it was too warm inside, except that it wasn't very cold outside. I'm happy it's supposed to actually get colder for the holiday.
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Matt
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#291351 - 28/12/2006 16:14
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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my first try at it. much easier than I thought. I too found it a little 'moist' inside, not soggy or underdone, just oddly slick inside. a friend insisted that there was a mistake and that it MUST have meant to use 1/4 oz(7 g) rather than 1/4 tsp (1 g) of yeast, so we tried both at the same time. she was shocked to see that both turned out to rise at the same rate, and that the 1g-yeast bread was actually better. 
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#291352 - 29/12/2006 14:46
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lastdan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
the 1g-yeast bread was actually better
I've since gotten a hardcore bread-making book for Christmas and have been reading up on the chemistry behind bread. Apparently, if you've got extra yeast, then you'll eventually reach a situation when the yeast run out of sugars to digest, so they start turning on each other (yeast cannibalism!), and give off ammonia as a result. The book recommends using the minimum amount of yeast, whenever possible, for exactly this reason. This is also part of why other breads have you punching down the dough after the initial rise. It gets rid of the accumulated gas, but it also equalizes temperature in the dough and gets the yeast back in touch with more sugars to digest.
Also, I didn't realize that yeast doesn't actually contribute to the flavor of the bread. The flavor comes entirely from the enzymes breaking down the starches into simpler sugars. Part of what makes the no-knead bread work so well is that the long, slow rise also gives more chance for the enzymes (already in the flour) to crunch away at the starches.
With regard to the moistness, I had that issue with loaf #2. For loaf #3, I tried increasing the baking time after the lid came off, which worked, but ended up deeply toasting the crust. For loaf #4, I changed the baking temperatures to 480 degrees for the initial 30 minutes, and then down to 400 for a subsequent 45 minutes. That pretty much nailed it.
Note: you have to resist temptation and let the loaf cool for at least 30 minutes. This gives the crumb time to set up and also helps drop the moisture level.
Loaf #4:
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#291353 - 03/01/2007 00:36
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
the 1g-yeast bread was actually better
I've since gotten a hardcore bread-making book for Christmas
An excellent book! I won a copy of it in a charity bingo last year.
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#291354 - 20/01/2007 14:24
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Ok, I just bought the ingredients and will give this a shot tomorrow - will mix the dough this afternoon.
I just came back from the supermarket where I picked up a bag of white bread flour and a bag of multi grain. Even picked up some corn meal to dust the crust.
Last week I picked up a cast iron enameled French/Dutch oven for CAD$50 - a lot cheaper than Staub and La Creuset, so let's hope it lasts as long.
I've read the recipe, the article (which doesn't appear to cost anything to read), the followup and have also watched the video. I noticed the recipe in the NYT is bit different than what Lahey described. I'm thinking of setting the dough for its last hours on a tea towel as shown in the video. I don't have any parchment paper and I really hate using cling wrap.
The only thing that I wanted to try, but that I won't be the first time around, is to put slices of Portuguese choriço sausage into the dough before baking. I'm sure once I have the initial loaf-making down the sausage will kick it up to a whole new level.
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#291355 - 21/01/2007 06:12
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I've been making this bread for a while now, and I've just ordered myself some rye flour and high-gluten white flour, in addition to the wheat and regular, unbleached flour I'm now keeping around. My next adventure(s) will be doing proper rye and soughdough breads, both of which require the care and feeding of wild-yeast starters. That will be fun.
I wouldn't worry too much about variance between the different NYT recipes. I initially was particular to do everything by weight, but now I'm just doing it by feel, adding ever just so much water to get the dough to the consistency that I want (goopy/sticky, but just firm enough that it hangs together as a dough). I've been consistent in using ~3 cups of dry flour, 2+epsilon cups of water, .25 tsp instant yeast, and 1.5 tsp salt (slightly more than the standard recipe, but seems to taste better to me).
I haven't tried the tea towel. That just seems like a huge mess. I'd spend the bucks, buy a roll of parchment paper, and call yourself happy.
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#291356 - 22/01/2007 16:17
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Attached are images of the first loaf (I made 3 yesterday) and the Dutch Oven. Using the tea towel (cotton not terry) to place the dough ball after folding worked our very well. A light dusting with some flour and corn meal and there was no sticking after 2-3 hours sitting. It was very easy to just turn it over and dump the ball into the pot for baking. I ended up making 2 white (using bread flour) and 1 multi grain (which was a 50/50 mix of the white flour and multigrain bread flour). The dough sat rising for 20 hours or so and then 2-3 hours after folding (first loaf about 2 last loaf about 3 because I could only bake one at a time). My oven's temperature must be off because my baking times didn't line up with the recipe nor what's been suggested in here. The bread was great, in and out, but there's no way I could have baked for over 20 minute with the cover off the dutch oven. One load spent only 15 minutes like this at 400 after having baked 30 minutes with lid closed at 480. The first load baked 30 minutes closed at 450 and then 15 minutes open at 450 (this was already pushing it, any longer and the crust would have been way too hard).  
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#291357 - 22/01/2007 16:18
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Image of pot/Dutch/French Oven.
Attachments
293429-DutchOvenSmall.jpg (148 downloads)
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#291358 - 22/01/2007 16:31
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I've started doing two different temperatures for exactly the reasons you cite. I do the initial part (lid on the pot) at 475F and the subsequent part (lid of) at 400F. This seems to reduce the over-browning of the crust, while still letting the heat get all the way through to the center. I'm now doing 30 minutes lid-on and 30-minutes lid-off. Last time, I ended up with an internal temperature of 196 degrees (yeah, shiny new temperature probe), when I pulled it out. Works for me. I recently ordered some high-gluten white flour and some medium rye flour (from King Arthur Flour), since you can't find that stuff in the supermarket. Once it arrives, I'm going to have a go at doing a German rye bread and a sourdough bread, both of which require non-trivial advance work (i.e., wild-yeast fermentation). My cookbook says that it's going to smell really bad in the beginning but that the smell will come around by the time the starter is ready to bake. We'll see...
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#291359 - 22/01/2007 17:54
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I'm going to have a go at doing a German rye bread and a sourdough bread, both of which require non-trivial advance work (i.e., wild-yeast fermentation). My cookbook says that it's going to smell really bad in the beginning but that the smell will come around by the time the starter is ready to bake. We'll see...
Good sourdough starter should *not* smell bad. Tangy and slightly alcoholic, perhaps, but not foul.
The Sourdough Cookery by Rita Davenport has been the definitive book on the stuff since 1977.
Cheers!
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#291360 - 22/01/2007 21:04
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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My book was talking about making a starter from scratch. The first five days are all about having a flour/water mixture that ferments on its own at room temperature. Every day, you throw half of it out and add in more flour/water. The book claims that it starts off funky but gets normal quickly. I'll find out in a few days.
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#291361 - 22/01/2007 21:31
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, a flour and water mixture is a great breeding ground for all sorts of nasties. Fortunately, the waste product of lactobacillus is lactic acid, which lowers the pH of the starter to levels inhospitable to other nasties. But it takes a while for the pH to rise up, so other things will grow in there for a while. Although I'd be concerned if it was really nasty, since much of the badness of nasty bacteria is not the infection potential, but the toxic waste products, which won't "die off" as the acidity of the starter increases.
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Bitt Faulk
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#291362 - 25/01/2007 16:24
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I'm in the process of baking the first of two new loaves right now. The one in the oven is a potato-garlic-peppercorn loaf made with 75% white and 25% (more or less) multi-grain flour.
I took some small left-over baked potatos (that had been baked this past Sunday covered in olive oil and garlic) and pan seared them with a little bit of olive oil to heat them up and soften them up again (they had been in the fridge). I mashed them (skin-on) and mixed them with the dry ingredients, adding a bit of crushed peppercorns and cumin.
The other loaf is 66.6% white and 33.3% multi-grain mixed with one chopped clove of garlic that was first fried up in a skillet with a chopped dried hot chili pepper. Even the dough for this one smells amazing - I can only imagine how it will smell when I put it in the oven in an hour.
I let them rise for about 20 hours - the first one grew quite a bit bigger than the second. After squishing and folding them, dusting and letting them rise again for 3 hours, the first loaf grew more/faster again. I'd say a good 20-30% bigger than the second.
I don't know much about bread chemistry other than what I've casually picked up here and there, so this is mostly just winging it.
Any tips from anyone on how to make the inside a little denser? I'd like to be able to make something with smaller and/or less air pockets.
I'm deliberating experimenting with the times of this first loaf... Maybe going longer than 30 minutes with lid closed. Even if I don't, I'm pretty sure with lid open I still won't be able to go beyond 15 to 20 minutes at 400F.
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#291363 - 25/01/2007 17:12
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I don't remember the recipe and I'm too lazy to go back and look, but there are a number of things that will make the crumb tighter. Creating seed bubbles would help, but there's not really any method I can think of you can do too well with a bread -- that's more of a cake technique, where the idea is creaming the butter with the sugar really well. Another method would be kneading the dough, but that seems to be against the spirit of the recipe. More acid in the batter should do it, as it will set the proteins faster.
So maybe add a little bit of vinegar or apple juice to the batter? Probably instead of some of the water. Ooh, or buttermilk. That'd probably work really well. The yogurt suggested below makes sense, too.
Edited by wfaulk (25/01/2007 17:14)
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Bitt Faulk
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#291364 - 25/01/2007 17:13
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
Any tips from anyone on how to make the inside a little denser? I'd like to be able to make something with smaller and/or less air pockets.
one thing that really made a difference for me was adding a little over a table spoon of good 'real' yogurt. you may loose a bit crisp from the crust on the flip side, but the interior really is nice.
assuring the inside hits no less than 185f (up to 205?) when it comes out and then the biggie is not to cut it until the inside falls below ~120f keeps it from seeming gummy or too moist.
I'm still learning so this should not be taken as fact or expert advice.
because of this thread, I am now smitten with bread and the production of it.
fun over the last month
Edited by lastdan (25/01/2007 17:53)
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