#293260 - 06/02/2007 17:57
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
*points 5 messages up in the thread*
But yeah, great ad. I think it's one of the better "Get a Mac" ones.
Agreed, it's a funny one, but I still can't get past the smugness. It's a huge turn-off for me when it comes to Apple.
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Matt
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#293261 - 06/02/2007 18:43
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Agreed, it's a funny one, but I still can't get past the smugness. It's a huge turn-off for me when it comes to Apple.
The smugness of this community didn't seem to turn you off from an empeg. While I may not agree with everything Apple does (still not a big fan of the iPod), I can overlook the smugness of the Apple community simply because I have had a better computing experience since investigating OS X in 2001. I still have issues daily with the way things work in Windows and Office now that I have to deal with them at work again, since many times I find situations where engineers at Microsoft just didn't think something all the way through. It's helped me re-appreciate the simplicity, but also power my Mac has at home.
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#293262 - 06/02/2007 18:56
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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If only all the PC games were made for Mac, too. I know, it's chicken-and-egg. Ah well.
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#293263 - 06/02/2007 19:05
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah (and this solution doesn't work for everyone), but if you just run games and nothing else on your PC and leave the real work to an Apple, your PC will fail less often and your productivity will go up.
That said, then your PC becomes a Wintendo, and, especially with the last two generations of consoles, why not just buy a Nintendo (or XBox or Playstation) and eschew the PC altogether?
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Bitt Faulk
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#293264 - 06/02/2007 19:30
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
If only all the PC games were made for Mac, too. I know, it's chicken-and-egg. Ah well.
They are now via Bootcamp, and soon without the reboot via Parallels in their next major version. I'll be interested to see how well it works in Parallels. So far, using Bootcamp for me has been flawless. One package from Apple updates all the drivers, and the only thing Apple doesn't support on my MacBook Pro is the backlit keyboard and display dimming.
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#293265 - 06/02/2007 22:37
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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I played Half Life 2 all the way through on my MBP in bootcamp and it was faster than my PC. As soon as I can get the time to do it I'm formatting my PC, selling it, and running everything off my MBP, including MAYA that I use for work. All the PC server stuff is going on a Mini in the other room. God I can't wait to be rid of this Shuttle. Anyone want a Shuttle?!
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#293266 - 06/02/2007 22:41
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
Agreed, it's a funny one, but I still can't get past the smugness. It's a huge turn-off for me when it comes to Apple.
The smugness of this community didn't seem to turn you off from an empeg.
That argument only works if I think this community is smug. I don't.
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Matt
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#293267 - 07/02/2007 00:39
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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You are completely avoiding a potentially better computing platform because of a perceived smugness? Who cares? You don't have to be smug. I'd be surprised if you used Linux if you followed the same avoidance pattern... the user base seems to have the same aura of superiority. But in the end who gives a flip... whatever works better for you and gets your work/play/day done easier and more enjoyably is what matters. Not a perceived attitude of a nebulous group.
Would you not buy a Porsche because of the way you think other Porsche owners act? It just seems like such an odd criteria to limit your experiences with.
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#293268 - 07/02/2007 02:47
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
why not just buy a Nintendo (or XBox or Playstation) and eschew the PC altogether?
Because first-person shooters and realtime strategy games are still better with a mouse and keyboard.
Too bad I bought my Mac shortly before they went Intel. Then I could be looking forward to the new release of parallels.
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#293269 - 07/02/2007 13:06
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
You are completely avoiding a potentially better computing platform because of a perceived smugness?
Did I say that? When/where did I say that? I said it's a big turn-off! Sheesh!
I would still have to get past other things, high prices being the biggest. Then there's things like familiarity with the OS, concerns about being able to upgrade my hardware like I do now, and finding free programs to replace the ones I love to use as well as for-pay software that meets my needs. These are surmountable obstacles, but only if you have the time and patience to get past them. Right now I don't, and even if I did, I don't have the money.
But if it fits your fanboy attack better, I also want to avoid all the trendy people at the Apple store in my mall. They all dress way cooler than I do.
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Matt
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#293270 - 07/02/2007 13:40
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14479
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
They all dress way cooler than I do.
Well, of course they do! You're just a "lowly help desk technician", right? 
(from your BBS profile)
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#293271 - 07/02/2007 13:42
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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#293272 - 07/02/2007 15:33
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
I would still have to get past other things, high prices being the biggest.
The default configuration for the tower-style Mac (Mac Pro) on the Apple store has these specs:
- Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
- 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
- NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
- 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive
- 16x double-layer SuperDrive
Their price for it is $2499.
An equivalently configured Dell (Precision 490):
- Two Dual Core Intel® Xeon® Processor 5150 2.66GHz, 4MB L2,133
- 1GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 533MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS)
- 256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3450, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA
- 250GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM NCQ Hard Drive with 8MB DataBurst Cache
- 16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD™ and Roxio Creator™ Dell Ed
goes for $3287. (The video card was the cheapest 256MB card Dell offered on that system.)
If you select the only direct video-card match (the 512MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 4500, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA), it becomes $4148 vs $4212, still a good $50 cheaper.
Do you still think Macs are more expensive? Okay, fair enough: most PCs don't come with Xeons. And the Mini is slightly more expensive and slower than the cheapest Dell PC you could get. (I tried and couldn't come up with a good equivalent, but we're talking the Mini at $600 and a Dell at about $400.) It also doesn't have expansion slots. So you have an argument if you're trying to buy the absolute cheapest thing possible.
But the notion that Macs are head-and-shoulders more expensive than PCs has been a lie for a long time, as long as you compare app -- uh ... oranges to oranges. It is also true that, before the Mini came along, there was no stripped-down Mac you could buy, which is relevant. And the Mini is more expensive. (Actually, it'd probably be more accurate to compare it against a Shuttle or something like that.)
So there's a lot more to it than just "Macs are too expensive". Not that that statement is totally inaccurate, either.
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Bitt Faulk
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#293273 - 07/02/2007 17:03
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Bitt, I'm curious as to why you assumed I'd go with a Dell. I would build my own PC. A quick shopping for parts on Newegg to match that Apple shows a result of about $1930.
Please understand, I'm not trying to put down Apple computer products. I'm just saying why I'm not going to use them. There are barriers to my entry into the Mac world that can't be broken down at this point. I'd rather spend my time and money elsewhere. I'm not making an argument for why nobody on the planet should buy Apple. Just myself.
Other thoughts:
- Just so you know, I seriously considered trying a Mac out. I was completely prepared to jump on that Mac Mini test drive thing they had a while back, and the day I went to order one, they killed the promotion.
- I wanted to point out that Apple's 30" monitor is almost half again the price of Dell's ($1800 v $1300).
- much like Macs, I've always avoided iPods. Yes, it's partly the whole smugness thing, but there is a good deal about the iPod that I don't like, so that's hardly the main reason.
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Matt
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#293274 - 07/02/2007 17:08
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Dell just seemed a good comparison. Geared towards home users and small businesses. Building it yourself isn't a valid comparison, either. Again, I'll give you that Apple doesn't provide that option, but wasn't it you who just spent weeks arguing with a PC you were building yourself?
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Bitt Faulk
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#293275 - 07/02/2007 18:00
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Building it yourself isn't a valid comparison
Yes, it is! You still aren't getting that I'm not arguing for all of mankind. I'm arguing for myself! I'm comparing to a self-built system because if tomorrow I was to say "I want a new computer," I would have essentially three options open to me: Apple, Dell (and Gateway/Alienware/etc.), or build it myself. If we're just arguing the price, then other factors like differing OSs aren't in play. Out of those three options, building it yourself will save you the most money.
And yes, I was having a lot of difficulty with a computer I was building. That was a first for the previous 6 PCs I'd built. Wasn't it Tony who was having tons of trouble with a Mac Mini he bought?
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Matt
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#293276 - 07/02/2007 18:05
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14479
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Bitt, I'm curious as to why you assumed I'd go with a Dell. I would build my own PC. A quick shopping for parts on Newegg to match that Apple shows a result of about $1930.
Well, in that case, just pick up a pre-owned Mac off of eBay, for even less.
Cheers
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#293277 - 07/02/2007 18:12
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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No, I understand, and yours is a valid reason. It's just that the Mac-bashers have always said "Macs cost more" without ever actually looking at what you get. I'll admit that what you get may be more than you want (from dual Xeons to being preconfigured), but it's not a context-free argument.
That said, I will point out that most of us, were we to buy a Dell PC, would spend hours removing all the crap they preinstall and otherwise optimizing the system, whereas a Mac really is ready-to-go out of the box. Not that that's a reason for you to buy one, but it may be a savings many people don't consider.
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Bitt Faulk
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#293278 - 07/02/2007 18:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
I'm comparing to a self-built system because if tomorrow I was to say "I want a new computer," I would have essentially three options open to me: Apple, Dell (and Gateway/Alienware/etc.), or build it myself. If we're just arguing the price, then other factors like differing OSs aren't in play. Out of those three options, building it yourself will save you the most money.
FWIW, the actual reason I got an Apple PC rather than building my own was because, with Hugo's friends-and-family discount, it was fractionally cheaper than buying the components separately to upgrade my previous PC. But I'm so glad I did -- not because I've become a MacOS weenie (I've booted it into MacOS a couple of times, but really only use the thing for Linux), but because it's so much quieter in operation than any self-built PC of the same spec would be. My old dual P3 sounds like a particularly badass hoover, but the Mac is just a murmur. You just can't, as a self-builder, buy the sort of heatsinks you get in a Mac Pro, nor the sort of case design that lets it use the big, slow fans. If I'd known about the quietness in advance, I'd've been happy to pay the Apple premium even if there were one.
Peter
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#293279 - 07/02/2007 18:30
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
No, I understand, and yours is a valid reason. It's just that the Mac-bashers have always said "Macs cost more" without ever actually looking at what you get. I'll admit that what you get may be more than you want (from dual Xeons to being preconfigured), but it's not a context-free argument.
Don't worry, the last thing I want to do is get into a Mac-bashing war just for the sake of bashing Macs. I'm not saying anything bad about their hardware (or their software, really). I think they build and sell really fantastic hardware. It just doesn't work for me. I just find it funny that this all came out of my one statement that their smugness is something that turned me off, something that a lot of people have said.
Quote:
That said, I will point out that most of us, were we to buy a Dell PC, would spend hours removing all the crap they preinstall and otherwise optimizing the system, whereas a Mac really is ready-to-go out of the box. Not that that's a reason for you to buy one, but it may be a savings many people don't consider.
Oh, you do not have to tell me about this. I'll be the first in line to bash the hell out of Dell for that crap. Against my suggestions a family friend bought a Dell recently and had me configure it. That was a terrible experience. So yes, if it came down to a Mac vs a Dell, I will concede victory to a Mac any day of the week. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that point.
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Matt
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#293280 - 07/02/2007 19:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
Against my suggestions a family friend bought a Dell recently and had me configure it. That was a terrible experience.
If you're ever faced with the out-of-box Dell software junk again, you may want to try the PC De-Crapifier.
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#293281 - 07/02/2007 19:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Wasn't it Tony who was having tons of trouble with a Mac Mini he bought?
I wouldn't say "tons", but yes. Its hard drive failed, one month after the warranty expired.
I still don't think it's fair to compare build-it-yourself prices with OEM prices, though.
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#293282 - 07/02/2007 20:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
Against my suggestions a family friend bought a Dell recently and had me configure it. That was a terrible experience.
If you're ever faced with the out-of-box Dell software junk again, you may want to try the PC De-Crapifier.
Wow, that's handy! If it can get rid of McAfee all on it's own, it's worth the price of admission right there. That program is a royal pain.
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Matt
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#293283 - 08/02/2007 01:11
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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You also realize you'd be paying at least $500 (if not closer to $750-1000) for a case and cooling accessories to match those in the MacPro. And don't forget to include the cost of an OS.
I simply don't see any clear-cut way to beat Apple's prices for what you actually get unless you skip over a lot of details that some people will find very important.
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#293284 - 08/02/2007 02:47
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: hybrid8]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
skip over a lot of details that some people will find very important.
Image. ::stoke stoke::
Give me a PC in a big dull beige case and I'm a happy man.
Seriously though, I should try Mac. I mean, what will I upgrade to after XP since I won't go to Vista?
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- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#293285 - 08/02/2007 03:50
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 04/09/2004
Posts: 524
Loc: Oklahoma
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I too have been using Vista and I really love the Aero and 3D filp view. More than a toy, it is a time saver and a half! The 'look and feel' takes a bit of getting use to, since many things are not called what they use to be, and not necessarly where they use to be, but it really nice when you get use to it. I do, however, still object to IE7 (built in, no uninstall), as there are many, many issues, especially with the Siebel stuff (hmmm now figure out who makes that!)
All in all, I really enjoy the Vista and Office 2007. Just my two cents worth, and no change given!
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#293286 - 08/02/2007 04:51
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
You also realize you'd be paying at least $500 (if not closer to $750-1000) for a case and cooling accessories to match those in the MacPro. And don't forget to include the cost of an OS.
Does the Mac Pro actually run quiet ? I noticed someone else in the thread say that it was whisper quiet.
I had a Mac twin G5 tower on loan for a while, that was quiet when it wasn't being used, but sounded like a wind tunnel as soon as you started taxing it. Does the arrival of the Intel chips actually make a Mac tower usable in a home office ?
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#293287 - 08/02/2007 08:47
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Does the Mac Pro actually run quiet ? I noticed someone else in the thread say that it was whisper quiet.
While compiling Qt in 3 minutes, glibc or Mozilla in 6, KDE in half-an-hour or so, the loudest noise was the occasional ticking of the drive on the NFS server it was pulling the tarballs down from.
Peter
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#293288 - 08/02/2007 12:08
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: andy]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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I have a MacPro and it is quiet. I have it next to the Linux unit I built up and it is night and day on noise levels. The Linux case is really nice but the MacPro is just well engineered. AntecMacPro
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#293289 - 08/02/2007 16:03
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Ladmo]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I really love the Aero and 3D filp view.
What's the 3D flip view and how do I get to it?
Don't laugh at me.
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