#293200 - 31/01/2007 11:23
Windows Vista
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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I've had RC1 running for a while now (a few months maybe). It is kind of hard to see exactly what it offers over XP. When XP came out, I installed it on my machine at the office (I think it replaced ME, a true dog) but I can't see what I'm supposed to get out of Vista that XP doesn't provide.
Am I missing something about Vista? 5 years in development seems like a long time given what I've seen. Is there a lot more under the hood that I haven't seen?
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#293201 - 31/01/2007 11:46
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Am I missing something about Vista? 5 years in development seems like a long time given what I've seen. Is there a lot more under the hood that I haven't seen?
Lots more.
Peter
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#293202 - 31/01/2007 13:21
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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It's been in development longer than 5 years. And they ripped a lot of planned functionality and features out of the first release.
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#293203 - 31/01/2007 13:29
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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Interesting read which brings me to another point. Outside of deployment on new PCs (inertia), how does their business model even work? The numbers I've heard on development cost ($6B to $10B) and the implication that not many (relatively speaking) copies will be sold for upgrades, etc, why did they even bother? The new Office suite runs fine on XP (supposedly) but I can't see even that upgrade being worth it even for power users of Office.
We probably have 400 PCs in our company (over which I have some influence on software) that do nothing more than check emails, light word processing and light spreadsheet use, it makes you wonder why we have a copy of Office running on all of them.
My relatively short exposure to Ubuntu has been mostly pleasant with the exception of connectivity within a Windows network environment (sharing on the Linux box is more complicated than seems to be necessary). The UI is simple enough with enough in common with the "Windows" experience for any reasonable user to transition pain free. We (obviously) don't run games and most people don't run specialized software such as AutoCad or some of our even more specialized software such as GIS or modelling programs.
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#293204 - 31/01/2007 13:36
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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I think you have a good point. As a consumer when Apple, for example, release a new OS revision that I have to pay for they make it pretty clear what I am getting for my money, but I can't see at the moment what I get for my £100 with Vista, apart from the need to upgrade my PC. I think XP is great. I won't be swapping unless I bag a free copy from some where. But even then the only computer hardware I can see myself in future will be made by Apple, I need 2 PC's (one for CCTV, other for Linux firewall) and I have plenty of spare motherboards etc... kicking around to keep them going for a good while. So I'm saving my money up for my next Mac  Cheers Cris.
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#293205 - 31/01/2007 14:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Interesting read which brings me to another point. Outside of deployment on new PCs (inertia), how does their business model even work? The numbers I've heard on development cost ($6B to $10B) and the implication that not many (relatively speaking) copies will be sold for upgrades, etc, why did they even bother?
The Vista DRM core is a strategic necessity for them, to forceably lock users into MSware in the future (and lots of other such benefits, for MS not the user).
That's why they bothered.
Plus, the per-unit manufacturing cost is essentially zero for preloaded software, so on 100 million new PCs with Vista forced upon the users, MS makes about ($100/copy?) ten billion dollars in revenue, easily offseting development costs. And it'll get preinstalled on a lot more than a mere 100 million new boxes..
Of course, they could have just just continued with XP on those boxes, and fired their development staffs instead, with the same net profit. Except they've got competition now, so they really do need to update the software once in a while.
Cheers
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#293206 - 31/01/2007 14:45
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In regards to Office, the business model used to be:
Enough people upgrade Office for no reason other than that's it's there or acquire a new version of Office with a new computer that, because the new Office files are not compatible with old versions of Office, everyone who wants to communicate with those arbitrary upgraders also has to upgrade.
However, the lack of downward compatibility was fixed in Office XP, IIRC. I don't know if that trend continues with Office 2007.
However, the basic issue still applies. Enough people upgrade or get the new version bundled that the new features become requirements through various third-party mechanisms that everyone is forced to upgrade. That applies to both Office and the OS.
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Bitt Faulk
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#293207 - 31/01/2007 14:56
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Does anyone know if there's a site that will basically give you a demo of the new Office? I've heard nothing but positive things about the change in menu structures. Several people have said they were shocked that MS was ballsy enough to really change things, and I'm curious to see what they did. I thought there might be a java- or flash- based site that would give you a demo, beyond the usual screenshots.
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Matt
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#293208 - 31/01/2007 15:01
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Office OnlineRequires IE. Also: Try Microsoft Office, which is apparently a 60-day downloadable demo.
Edited by wfaulk (31/01/2007 15:07)
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Bitt Faulk
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#293209 - 31/01/2007 15:09
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Wow. It really is a lot different. I wonder if it's in some ways a response to OpenOffice, which obviously had a lot of time spent on it making it function very similarly to Office.
Edited by wfaulk (31/01/2007 15:11)
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Bitt Faulk
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#293210 - 31/01/2007 15:22
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Wow. It really is a lot different.
I wonder if it's in some ways a response to OpenOffice, which obviously had a lot of time spent on it making it function very similarly to Office.
I heard that it was because they finally realized that their menu structure is horrible. Seriously, it's nearly impossible to find some things in there, even when I know what I'm looking for.
Apparently, part of their focus group questions was asking people what features they wanted to see in Word/Excel/etc, and the majority of the responses were things that the programs could already do, but people didn't know they could. So I think they wanted a better way to present the menus, which I'm all for. Too bad it's still going to cost an insane amount. Personally, I do so little Office-related work at home that I just use Notepad or Google docs and spreadsheets.
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Matt
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#293211 - 31/01/2007 16:01
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
The Vista DRM core is a strategic necessity for them, to forceably lock users into MSware in the future (and lots of other such benefits, for MS not the user).
That's why they bothered.
I have not remotely followed the DRM core... What does their DRM apply to? Audio, Video, Software?
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#293212 - 31/01/2007 16:28
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah. That encompasses my favorite Office dilemma:
Is that under "Options" or "Configuration"?
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Bitt Faulk
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#293213 - 31/01/2007 16:28
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
So I think they wanted a better way to present the menus
I wonder if there's a way to revert to "Classic View"? Admittedly it would defeat the purpose but if you know your way around the current software and up against a deadline, I can see not wanting to learn the new menus on that particular day.
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#293214 - 31/01/2007 16:28
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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One thing I noticed that was a huge turn off for me was that it would not play region free DVD files that I had authored. I don't know if it was WMP, or Vista (Ultimate). I suppose I can author my own DVD's as region 1, but I shouldn't have to. It may just be my system though.
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#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
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#293215 - 31/01/2007 16:35
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Bitt Faulk
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#293216 - 31/01/2007 16:59
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
However, the lack of downward compatibility was fixed in Office XP, IIRC. I don't know if that trend continues with Office 2007.
Office 2007 defaults to saving to a new XML based format, .docx for Word and newer extensions for the others. It is a zip file with all the XML bits inside, and is completely incompatible with older versions of Office. It can save to a compatible format though, and Microsoft is slowly rolling out converters as well for both Windows and OS X.
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#293217 - 31/01/2007 17:03
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Enough people upgrade Office for no reason other than that's it's there or acquire a new version of Office with a new computer that, because the new Office files are not compatible with old versions of Office, everyone who wants to communicate with those arbitrary upgraders also has to upgrade.
At the beeb we called it the Office 97 effect.
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Andy M
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#293218 - 31/01/2007 17:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Vista upgrade flowchartMy biggest issues with Vista so far are: 1. All the cool features were stripped out or toned down. WinFS is a big missing feature. Even Microsoft knew that search in Vista wouldn't be as good as Spotlight in OS X Tiger. 2. The security is annoying, and likely to not be effective. People are going to be tired of it, and turn it off, or click OK to everything. And I don't trust Microsoft saying it is secure. Thats a label that will have to be earned, especially after the "secure" Windows Server 2003 was able to be infected by worms during the install process, a first for any Windows version. 3. Backwards compatibility is a mess. Sure, it runs most old programs, but so many things end up disabling Aero randomly, so for people with certain programs, get used to an inconsistent interface all the time. Microsoft should have just dumped compatibility out of the core OS and put it in a sandbox, ala Classic in OS X for running OS 9 apps. The constant disabling of Aero causes Flip3d, live previews and other UI changes to be turned off, so people won't have a consistent way to switch tasks. 4. Too many versions. This sums it up. The boxed copy should have just gone with what Ultimate is, and been priced decently. Also get rid of the 32/64 bit barrier. 64 bit Windows on x86 still actslike the Itanium version did, and the only reason for that was the split x86 32 bit and ia64. x64 doesn't need that split. If OS X, Linux, and countless variants of Unix don't need that hard split, neither does Windows. There are other issues I have with it, but that is a good start so far. I will admit there are a lot of good improvements in it, but I don't think it is worth it. One good change is the rewritten audio system. No longer do audio drivers sit in the kernel, so crappy Creative drivers shouldn't blue screen the system anymore. Of course, along with this, Microsoft broke hardware accelerated sound support with little warning, so now anyone with those cards will have to wait to regain functionality they once had.
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#293219 - 31/01/2007 18:50
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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One of the more "interesting" items I've read about Vista is this is the last of the breed (referring to major releases)? I used to be an early adopter of every release of Windows. Now I just can't muster up the energy to upgrade and the battle of specialty program compatibility. Honestly, there's just not enough there visually or added functionality to go through the pain. Sometimes I wish I hadn't tried it before the release. Now it's kind of like... that's it? It's not really about the cost either. They've been talking about it for years now. Underwhelming to me.
At the house, I've moved to OSX and playing with Linux. Perhaps Windows Vista is too familiar to be exciting.
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#293220 - 31/01/2007 19:12
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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We have been playing with it from earliest betas, mostly to look at security functionality, but our conclusion throughout is Baaaaad!
Security-wise I am likely to advise most of my clients to stick with up-to-date XP if they have to use Microsoft, as the 'wonderful' security features MS brought in will actually leave users far less secure.
And from a performance perspective it is just a pig. There is almost nothing it does thatI can't already have under linux or MacOs - and they do it far more elegantly and with less overhead. Same old story I think.
The upside is more and more organisations are becoming hacked off at the whole tie-in thing and are leaving for more open platforms, especially my government clients, so that has to be a good thing!
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#293221 - 31/01/2007 19:13
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
It is kind of hard to see exactly what it offers over XP. When XP came out, I installed it on my machine at the office (I think it replaced ME, a true dog) but I can't see what I'm supposed to get out of Vista that XP doesn't provide.
You are echoing what almost every business and trade publication I've seen already says. They all say don't bother unless you're deploying new systems and would be buying new OS's anyway.
I personally like Vista, for a host of reasons, none of which are "I work for microsoft".
But since I don't get an employee discount on it (seriously, how f'd is that?), I am unlikely to upgrade to it on my home PC because it offers me no benefit over XP as of yet.
The biggest benefit I could see for home users is the improved security with the Limited User Access feature. But since I am already capable of preventing malware from running on my home PC in the first place, this feature offers me *personally* no benefit.
There are many improved things about its user interface I like a lot. Its improved Start menu is the first new version of the Start menu that I like better than the classic one from Win95. I've now gotten very used to pressing Ctrl-Esc and typing the name of the program I'm looking for. I now miss this feature on my home PC.
Most of the other improvements to the user interface are finally putting Vista back up closer to OSX, which is a happy thing (if not particularly impressive, considering how long OSX has been around).
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#293222 - 31/01/2007 20:00
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
none of which are "I work for microsoft".
My post wasn't any anti-Microsoft rant or anything like that. I guess i miss the bling of something new. To borrow a worn out phrase, it seems more evolutionary than revolutionary and as the OS "matures", perhaps approaching stagnation. I guess I'm going to miss being bewildered even if for a week or so.
XP was such an improvement over ME... hell I don't know... it's just kind of depressing to not want to rush out and upgrade.
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#293223 - 31/01/2007 20:09
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
improved security with the Limited User Access feature
Cutting-edge 1964 technology!
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#293224 - 31/01/2007 20:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
The Vista DRM core is a strategic necessity for them, to forceably lock users into MSware in the future (and lots of other such benefits, for MS not the user).
That's why they bothered.
I have not remotely followed the DRM core... What does their DRM apply to? Audio, Video, Software?
Yes, yes, and yes.
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#293225 - 31/01/2007 21:06
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
My post wasn't any anti-Microsoft rant or anything like that.
I didn't take it as such, no worries.
Quote:
I guess i miss the bling of something new. To borrow a worn out phrase, it seems more evolutionary than revolutionary and as the OS "matures", perhaps approaching stagnation.
It's a funny conflict: On the one hand, they put a huge amount of work behind Windows 2000 and Windows XP, making them the best OSes they possibly could, thus making them useful upgrades that were widely adopted. They sold a lot of them, made a lot of money and solidified market share. But what seemed good then is biting them now. Now they're competing with their own prior versions.
It'd be nice if Vista were so bling that you "just gotta have it". But if that were the case, then XP would have had to kinda suck. And nobody likes a company that deliberately makes sucky products just because they want to sell the next upgrade...
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#293226 - 31/01/2007 21:10
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
nobody likes a company that deliberately makes sucky products just because they want to sell the next upgrade...
You just gotta do it like the automobile manufacturers. Everybody likes a new car for the smell alone.
And Millineum Edition did suck.
Edited to spell out Millineum Edition because ME just wasn't right there.
Edited by blitz (31/01/2007 21:11)
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#293227 - 31/01/2007 23:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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There are many improved things about its user interface I like a lot. Its improved Start menu is the first new version of the Start menu that I like better than the classic one from Win95.
What the hell is with the "Power" button on the start menu sending the computer to sleep. I'm sure there's probably an option to make it behave as I expect (i.e *really* turn the computer off), but why it doesn't do that as standard, well I don't know!
There's nothing that I've seen in the glossy bits that make me want to use it. I had it on a dev machine at work to test our software, the security on it annoyed the hell out of me. I suffer from motion sickness and the screen fading in and out all the time made me feel sick!
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#293228 - 01/02/2007 00:10
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
There are many improved things about its user interface I like a lot. Its improved Start menu is the first new version of the Start menu that I like better than the classic one from Win95. I've now gotten very used to pressing Ctrl-Esc and typing the name of the program I'm looking for. I now miss this feature on my home PC.
I like that part as well, since I use Quicksilver on the Mac a lot to launch programs. I wanted this functionality on my XP dev box at work, and found Launchy.
Of course, I'm not getting much use out of the Vista start menu. I currently do have it installed on my Mac on the Windows partition, but only for some quick checking of the game on Vista. Once I'm done with that later this week, dd is being run to put back my XP install. I had considered keeping Vista on here, but much like my Dell laptop, this machine doesn't go to sleep properly under Vista. XP sleep works fine, so how Vista managed to break this, I'm not sure.
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#293229 - 01/02/2007 01:16
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
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member
Registered: 31/12/2001
Posts: 121
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