#296373 - 04/04/2007 17:00
TV sucks
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
|
So they did it again. Some brainiac TV exec has pulled the best new show on TV, The Black Donnellys. Together with Day Break and Kidnapped, I have no qualms about stating they were the best three shows of the past 5 years.
I'm glad the creators of Day break and Kidnapped had back-up plans and managed to wrap the story line in 13 episodes (which had to be downloaded). Though a bit rushed, they did a far better job than most shows have done when they start a season already knowing it's their last.
Does American TV cater to Americans? Is the majority of the TV-watching country really made up of people with such poor taste they consider "Are you Smarter than a 5th Grader?" entertainment?
So great TV gets axed and we're left with theusualy crap: The aforementioned game show, Deal or No Deal, Nanny 911, Supernanny, Trading Spouses, Wife Swap, The Apprentice, Dancing with the Stars, America's Top Model and equally annoying, stupid and completely numbing reality TV. There are of course bad serials and series as well. This years 24 is arguably the worst hour of series television of the year. The writing is just so horrid it gets painful to watch. The lead actor is even barely in the show - and he's practically the only reason to actually watch it.
24 is actually a show I've followed. Another that I started from the begining with is Prison Break, and this season has also been a complete clusterf&ck. Where do they hire these writers? We have 2 too many Law and Order shows on TV, 2 too many CSI, Shark should go, Jerico is a joke and even with a few more shows deserving of the axe, the prime time slot is actually pretty empty. So empty one has to wonder WHY these other shows are being canned.
Why does ABC run 3 episodes of the horribly unfunny According to Jim back to back? Yet they have two new comedies that are much funnier in the form of In Case of Emergency and The Knights of Prosperity that should be filling that night's slots. They keep pulling one and showing only the other or neither on some type of random schedule. NBC pulls My Name is Earl and The Office from the air for the past two months for who knows what reason.
The Black Donnellys would likely have been better served as an HBO show with added swearing and less concealed violence. The pattern I see is that all these shows I consider good and of high production quality (with generally stellar casts and superb acting) are quite different than anything else on TV. They're not the same Crime, Law or Hospital show.
Which leaves me surprised that Lost has stuck around and that Heroes has made it this far. And there's another braniac move. Take the show off the air for a month. That will certainly help with audience retention. The multi-month break almost killed Lost this season.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296374 - 04/04/2007 17:07
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
|
Totally with you on this one.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296375 - 04/04/2007 17:25
Re: TV sucks
[Re: lectric]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
|
The TV landscape has changed dramatically over the last few years and so too has network scheduling. It's disturbing so far as TV and entertainment go.
A few years ago I was surprised (pleasantly so) that a show like "Ed" could stay on the air. Last year I quite enjoyed the premier episodes of Tom Cavanagh's new series Love Monkey for many of the same reasons. It was yanked pretty quickly after only 3 episodes I believe. I don't think a show like "Ed" could make it on TV today.
It's as if the networks would rather just keep premiering new shows for that initial high hit of viewers. Then take it off the air and repeat. Once we all become jaded enough this is going to backfire on them.
I did a little reading and sure enough, the Monday 10PM time slot is to be filled by some reality TV garbage. NBC were apparently surprised that the audience from The Black Donnellys lead-in, Deal or No Deal, were not the same people sticking around for the show. It wouldn't have taken a genius to predict that.
Please, game shows can run from 6 to 8 but keep prime time open for prime content. Reality shows can stay on reality stations like TLC and Discovery for the most part, Amazing Race and to a lesser degree survivor being the exception - their production value is so far above anyone else's that it makes that much of a difference.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296376 - 04/04/2007 17:26
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
I had absolutely no desire to see any of those three shows, but, in general, I agree. If it isn't dumbed down to the level of a fifth grader, it won't be retained, at least on network TV.
I agree about Prison Break, although I did enjoy the first three-quarters of the finale more than the rest of the season put together.
Did you see The Riches? On paper, that's a show I would not enjoy, but the ads were compelling, and, so far, I'm really enjoying it. And Raines is a pretty good noir mystery, although they need to lose the psychiatrist angle. That feels a lot like notes-from-the-network to me. At least they're showing them out of order. Probably to push the psychiatrist shows up to the front. Andy Barker, PI is pretty funny, too.
Other than that, the only other show I can think of that I get actively excited about is Veronica Mars. I watch a few others, but I wouldn't be too upset if they were cancelled.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296377 - 04/04/2007 17:29
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 599
Loc: Florida
|
The average American just can't handle chewing gum and watching a TV show at the same time. This is why we have reality TV since it doesn't require the mind to actually to work and why good shows get FOX'd.
_________________________
Chad
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296378 - 04/04/2007 18:04
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5548
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
|
Quote:
I have no qualms about stating they were the best three shows of the past 5 years.
Hmmm... has it really been five years since "Firefly"?
I didn't particularly care for any of the three shows you mentioned, but that's just me. They were probably good shows, just not to my taste.
As long as we're talking about TV pet peeves... how about the practice some of the networks are doing now of starting certain programs a minute before the hour (i.e, 8:59 pm instead of 9:00 pm)? That means that if you watch TV using a PVR like TiVo, the 8:59pm show is competing against TWO hours of programming (the 8p-9p shows, and the 9p-10p shows) which cuts the likelihood in half of the show being recorded. In my case, it cuts the likelihood to zero because any such show I find I immediately delete the season pass and that's the end of it.
The commercial networks are shooting themselves in the foot, taking short term gains at the expense of long-term prosperity. Remember that the networks are not in the business of providing quality programming, they are in the business of providing viewers to their advertisers, and if more people want to watch fifth graders than want to watch some family named Donnelly, then it's the fifth graders that prevail.
I think commercial television may be on its death bed now. I had the unfortunate experience of trying to watch a movie on my TV a few weeks ago (as opposed to watching it on TiVo) because I have only a single-tuner TiVo and it was busy recording something else. The movie was completely unwatchable. The run time of the movie, if you were to watch it on DVD, was 110 minutes. After the network finished the butchery ("...edited for content and to run in the time allotted") there was probably only about 90 minutes of programming. The actual on-air time for the movie was three hours. Every ten minutes (at hh:10, hh:20, hh:30 etc.) there was a commercial break that ran a minimum of 4:30, sometimes as long as 6:00. I believe there was more commercial matter than programming during the three hours. It was the first time in years that I had ever watched live TV. I won't do it again.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296379 - 04/04/2007 20:34
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
|
I'm just here to say that this seasons 24 BLOWS. I don't know if its the writing, or if I'm just over the general "terrorist" storyline. It all just seems very generic at this point. I watched every damn episode of the previous seasons.
But yeah television has been pretty disappointing lately. I find that I've been watching a lot more TLC, History Channel, Discovery Channel stuff lately. Around here we have this great channel called Discovery Times which has the most interesting 1 hour documentary type programs on various topics. Really good stuff.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296380 - 04/04/2007 22:34
Re: TV sucks
[Re: visuvius]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
|
"Yes, sir, here's your multi-thousand dollar high definition flat panel TV and your multi-thousand dollar surround system. Oh, very nice couch. You're ready to go. Oh. You say you want content?"
I suppose there's always NetFlix.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296381 - 04/04/2007 22:34
Re: TV sucks
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
old hand
Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
|
Quote:
As long as we're talking about TV pet peeves... how about the practice some of the networks are doing now of starting certain programs a minute before the hour (i.e, 8:59 pm instead of 9:00 pm)? That means that if you watch TV using a PVR like TiVo, the 8:59pm show is competing against TWO hours of programming (the 8p-9p shows, and the 9p-10p shows) which cuts the likelihood in half of the show being recorded. In my case, it cuts the likelihood to zero because any such show I find I immediately delete the season pass and that's the end of it.
You know what really sucks about this? It's that TV networks over here will probably also ''see the light'' and start doing the same thing! 
Purely speculation on my part but don't give up on those Season Passes just yet... I'm sure that some clever folks will, before too long, write a TiVo cron script to cull a minute or two from these programs to fix it.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296382 - 04/04/2007 23:28
Re: TV sucks
[Re: DWallach]
|
addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
|
Yeah Netflix is a pretty good alternative, especially considering the fact that in addition to movies, they have pretty much any recent show available on DVD as well. AND they do you the favor of sending you your movie in Blueray or HDDVD if its available in that format.
On an aside, can I just say that competition RULES. Because of all this "watch our show online" crap thats been going on, Netflix has decided to provide me with 15 hours of content online.
Awesome.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296383 - 05/04/2007 00:06
Re: TV sucks
[Re: DWallach]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
|
Quote:
"Yes, sir, here's your multi-thousand dollar high definition flat panel TV and your multi-thousand dollar surround system. Oh, very nice couch. You're ready to go. Oh. You say you want content?"
That's what put me off of buying one of those 65" Panasonic plasmas a couple months ago. I started looking at the DTV and Comcast channel lineups. Decided I didn't want to a bunch of SD on a 1080 big screen for the next year of so.
edit: I hadn't heard that the BD had been axed. (Some words held back.)
Edited by gbeer (05/04/2007 00:08)
_________________________
Glenn
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296384 - 05/04/2007 01:20
Re: TV sucks
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
I had absolutely no desire to see any of those three shows, but, in general, I agree. If it isn't dumbed down to the level of a fifth grader, it won't be retained, at least on network TV.
I agree about Prison Break, although I did enjoy the first three-quarters of the finale more than the rest of the season put together.
Did you see The Riches? On paper, that's a show I would not enjoy, but the ads were compelling, and, so far, I'm really enjoying it. And Raines is a pretty good noir mystery, although they need to lose the psychiatrist angle. That feels a lot like notes-from-the-network to me. At least they're showing them out of order. Probably to push the psychiatrist shows up to the front. Andy Barker, PI is pretty funny, too.
Other than that, the only other show I can think of that I get actively excited about is Veronica Mars. I watch a few others, but I wouldn't be too upset if they were cancelled.
I'm definitely with Bitt on this one. I really don't like those shows you mentioned, Bruno, and I think I wasn't alone. There were not many fans of The Black Donnellys. You make it seem like if you aren't watching it, it's crap or reality TV.
Here is the list of all the shows I'm watching that are either currently airing or are expecting a new season (in no particular order):
Lost
The Simpsons
Bones
Jericho [actually, I stopped watching this one]
Dexter
Heroes
House
American Dad
Veronica Mars
Family Guy
ER
My Name is Earl
Mythbusters
Smallville
Weeds
Numb3rs
Supernatural
Eureka
Avatar: The Last Airbender
The Dresden Files
Andy Barker: P.I.
This list doesn't count a few shows whose future I'm uncertain of, like The Dead Zone and The 4400.
Look, I definitely think the networks aren't doing things right, but the fact is there are a number of good shows on the air right now. Considering the number of shows that premiere every year (dozens of them), it's hard to say that only "the best" get the axe.
*edit*
By the way, I don't claim that my list of shows only includes really great TV. I tend to think a few of those shows aren't very good (Dresden Files), but most have some redeeming value to me at least. For example, I'm going to start watching Nathan Fillion's new show. I don't think it'll be very good, but even if it isn't, I'll still watch it for him.
Edited by Dignan (05/04/2007 01:25)
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296385 - 05/04/2007 05:01
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
|
I just want to mention that Discovery Channels' (well, BBC's really) "Planet Earth" is fantastic. If it isn't on your watch list, it should be, IMNSHO.
- Jon
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296386 - 05/04/2007 13:54
Re: TV sucks
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
|
Matt, I like most of the shows you mentioned. But since I've already included those in other threads I didn't want to list them all again. Yes, I like the three shows I mentioned and some of that is personal taste. But there's no arguing on technical merits where the production value, set design, location shooting, camera work, direction, writing and acting are all very much above par. All three shows were big-screen A-grade motion picture quality in every aspect and detail. For instance I think the technical aspects of Smallville are pretty good. But I just can't get into the show. I wouldn't include it in what I'd call a list of crap. Same goes for Veronica Mars. I've heard really good things about it. I just don't watch it. I doubt however its audience is as big as The Black Donnellys was - it's just not on one of the big networks, therefore it survives. If it were an NBC show it wouold have been gone a long time ago. I'll chime in on Andy Barker though... I've watched two episodes so far and I'm still questioning whether to remove it from my record list. It's not as enjoyable as Andy Richter's previous shows. It has some moments, but I'm picking up a lot more Conan humor than Andy's in this. And I think Andy is generally a LOT funnier than Conan. And again the reason I mention reality TV is because that's what they're replacing a lot of these shows with. The Real Wedding Crashers is supposed to come in on Monday nights. They already have Deal or No Deal that was leading into The BD. I view TV much the same way I view forums. So much crap and so little cream. No one can argue that empegBBS stands head and shoulders above the majority of internet forums running today. Thats why I can post stuff like this in here without it turning into a screaming match of little girls.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296387 - 05/04/2007 14:18
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
I would argue that the production values of a show are irrelevant to whether or not it's entertaining. Well, as long as it's passable. I don't want to see someone's hand holding up the plane that's getting shot down on 24. But, even then, it's just because it breaks me out of my suspension of disbelief.
It's all about the writing and acting, from my point of view, on TV. WIth the advent of HDTV, I think we'll start to see the direction come more to the fore, but not yet, really.
Of course, there's also taste to be accounted for, and while I'm sure that you all loved The Sopranos, it bored the ever-living crap out of me. I'm sure the same can be said by you about things that I love.
Anyway, I'm rambling, but judging a show based solely on production values is pretty short-sighted. I mean, there's no reason that How I Met Your Mother couldn't be shot like Annie Hall, but it would still be crap. In fact, high production values may be self-defeating. Networks cancel shows not only based on their ratings, which directly translates to revenue for the show, but also on how much it costs to produce the show. Veronica Mars may have lower ratings than The Black Donnellys did, but I'll guarantee you that it costs a third to make.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296388 - 05/04/2007 14:36
Re: TV sucks
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
|
How I Met Your Mother is one of my favorite sitcoms on TV right now. Network TV is finally dumping laugh tracks, at least on the better comedies.
I also listed many other factors in addition to production. Production is about much more than special effects. Set design, costumes, etc. I have a hard time watching a show and taking it seriously if it looks like it was filmed by a high school student on the weekend with their DV camera.
The writing and acting were superb on three shows that inspired this thread. In the case of Day Break and Kidnapped the (lead) actors were also predominantly movie actors.
Don't get me wrong (I'll say it again) there are other decent shows on TV. I think NCIS is pretty good, the original CSI, Without a Trace, Criminal Minds and a number of others. I don't watch most of them though. I do watch House and my girlfriend also watches Grey's Anatomy (I see one episode here and there and like it, but don't follow it).
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296389 - 05/04/2007 15:31
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
How I Met Your Mother is one of my favorite sitcoms on TV right now
Okay, I'm going to stop paying attention to what you say now.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296390 - 05/04/2007 16:01
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
|
Quote:
Don't get me wrong (I'll say it again) there are other decent shows on TV. I think NCIS is pretty good, the original CSI, Without a Trace, Criminal Minds and a number of others. I don't watch most of them though. I do watch House and my girlfriend also watches Grey's Anatomy (I see one episode here and there and like it, but don't follow it).
My wife watches all that stuff, so I tend to get stuck watching them.
Brain fart: what is it about crime shows and medical shows? Let's combine them. Criminal medicine? Medical criminals? Of course, the CSI shows are already half-way there. Every time they're showing someone doing lab work, they've always got some kind of trendy music going on. If there was a CSI drinking game, you'd have to yell out "Science Music!" and take a drink. If the lab work is being done by some impossibly good-looking top model playing a scientist and wearing a lab coat, you'd take two drinks and yell out "She blinded me with science!"
(I'm tempted to make an exception for Boston Legal. Initially it just annoyed me, but my wife is hooked and I'm regularly impressed by the witty writing. It's hard not to enjoy the torture they regularly apply to William Shatner's character.)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296391 - 05/04/2007 18:59
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Bruno, I'm thinking that you, Bitt, and I are agreeing on the principal. The difference is that we do not share the same taste in TV shows  I don't like a single show you listed. I wanted to start watching How I Met Your Mother because of Alyson Hannigan and Jason Segal, but the show left me cold. I simply can't watch the standard, cliched sitcoms anymore. Okay, that's all I really have for arguing I agree, just about different shows. And frankly, if Veronica Mars's future is as bleak as some are saying, I'm going to be one pissed off TV viewer. That might be my favorite show at the moment. I just wanted to comment on some other things you said: Quote:
the technical aspects of Smallville are pretty good. But I just can't get into the show.
I can totally understand that. The teenage drama stuff gets really annoying. I watch it for the Superman stuff.
Quote:
I'll chime in on Andy Barker though...It's not as enjoyable as Andy Richter's previous shows...And I think Andy is generally a LOT funnier than Conan.
I agree that it's nowhere near as good as Andy Richter Controls the Universe. That show was hilarious. I think conan is funnier on his own show, but I still really like his humor. You say you've only watched two episodes? Have you seen the one about chicken? That one had me cracking up the most (when Harve Presnell asks "ever been to Havana?" I was cracking up).
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296392 - 05/04/2007 19:16
Re: TV sucks
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
I have a soft spot for detective fiction, so that's a plus for me. Also, the references to other works of detective fiction crack me up.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296393 - 06/04/2007 04:40
Re: TV sucks
[Re: wfaulk]
|
addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
|
I have the solution to your problems. If you move overseas, all you get are Dr. Phil reruns and last seasons The Biggest Loser. Needless to say, it fixes any TV addictions real quick. 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296394 - 08/04/2007 05:42
Re: TV sucks
[Re: lectric]
|
new poster
Registered: 08/04/2007
Posts: 2
|
I just watched "Man vs. Wild" on Discovery channel.
"DSC — Man vs. Wild: The Rockies
Ultimate Survival
Bear Grylls is no stranger to extremes--he served in the British Special Forces and successfully climbed Everest . Now Bear parachutes alone into a remote and wild part of the Rocky Mountains with only the clothes on his back."
Another Englishman is teaching Americans how to survive in the Rockies. ....well - The above statement specifies "with only the clothes on his back" . Where did he get a life jacket that is hidden but clearly visible outline under his sweat shirt - Is there a store near by ??.
It is clearly visible during the river drift.
I would like to learn from REAL survival show from an American native (Indian)that know how to live in this environment - not from some British fraud show.
Edited by xp2004xyz (08/04/2007 06:03)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296395 - 08/04/2007 08:13
Re: TV sucks
[Re: xp2004xyz]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
|
Ok.
Hi, I'm l0ser. What brings you here?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296396 - 08/04/2007 19:47
Re: TV sucks
[Re: xp2004xyz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
Another Englishman is teaching Americans how to survive in the Rockies
Yup, yet another in a long line.
???
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296397 - 09/04/2007 01:18
Re: TV sucks
[Re: wfaulk]
|
new poster
Registered: 08/04/2007
Posts: 2
|
My post if you read it all is about junk (fake)
reality shows - not foreigners (I'm one).
This guy has a camera crew and other supplies
while claiming "bare survival" skills - I see none.
My son was watching this show and believes this junk.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296398 - 09/04/2007 11:57
Re: TV sucks
[Re: DWallach]
|
veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
|
Quote:
Brain fart: what is it about crime shows and medical shows? Let's combine them. Criminal medicine? Medical criminals?
You mean like Quincy? Of course, that was decades ago 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296399 - 01/05/2007 02:33
Re: TV sucks
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
|
Sorry to resurrect this thread from the dead, but I just wanted to say that I thought tonight's episode of Heroes was fantastic. I really hope the writing continues to be this good.
The cast was on Larry King the other day and said it's been picked up for next season, so at least one good show will go on.
_________________________
~ John
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296400 - 01/05/2007 02:47
Re: TV sucks
[Re: JBjorgen]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
|
Agreed. Heroes was excellent tonight. I heard the writer had 5 years worth already written and ready to go. I can't wait. "I scare me" I loved that.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296401 - 01/05/2007 11:16
Re: TV sucks
[Re: Tim]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
|
Quote:
Quote:
Brain fart: what is it about crime shows and medical shows? Let's combine them. Criminal medicine? Medical criminals?
You mean like Quincy? Of course, that was decades ago
Okay, Da Vinci's Inquest, then. Except it's now a couple of years old.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#296402 - 01/05/2007 11:45
Re: TV sucks
[Re: mlord]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Also Silent Witness, which is still a going concern.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index