Looking for advice from the wiser older sages. I'll keep this as short as possible.

I'm thinking about moving from San Francisco, where I've resided for the past 10.5 years, to Draper, Utah, at the South end of the Salt Lake City valley. WTF right?

Well, Kelly, whom I've resided with for 6.5 years, will be graduating from Cal. Berkeley with an OD (doctor of optometry) this coming Saturday. She's decided to do a residency in Boston, MA, which will last precisely 1 year starting July 1st. She's from the area, and has many family and friends there, and has always wanted to move back... it's been a point of contention that we've happily buried in our relationship until it had to be dealt with. Well... it's stuck it's zombie hand out of the grave and is chasing us down the street.

I, on the other hand, have been happy as a pig in feces since the day I moved here... and I fall more in love with SF every day. That, and I dislike the East Coast, it just doesn't offer me anything that I enjoy doing. I'll spare you all the details but trust me. We've pretty much come to the conclusion amicably that we'll be apart for a year with all intentions of coming back together on the other side. We were apart for 5 months last year during her externships, no problem. I've always planned on being with her forever. Though, that's not really what this post is about.

As it stands, I'll be left holding the bag on a $1355/month rent, which I can't rightly afford without a room mate, and I'm way to old for a stranger room mate in a place this small. To help ease the situation, a couple I've been friends with for 5 or so years that run the US side of a large kite/paraglider company I've been involved with for years have offered me a job. They currently reside in Draper at the Point of the Mountain, which is paragliding mecca in the US. The launch is literally 100 ft. from their back door... you can see the draw for someone as into flying as I am (and I AM). They have sold their house to a friend who wants to rent out the entire basement for $800, which is large, and I'd fill that spot nicely. They are moving about 80 miles South and building a warehouse for the company. The job they've offered is non-descript, but in a good way. Basically their business has grown beyond what the two of them can handle and they need help... with pretty much anything and everything. I can pretty much pick and choose what I want to do, from traveling and doing kite demos all the way to optimizing warehouse shipping and orders.

I've grown a little weary of being an animator for the rest of my life and just don't see or feel the future there beyond what I currently do, which is freelance work for a small game co... all be it an awesome one that give me insane freedom with my schedule and allows me to work from home. The beauty is that I can still do that work from SLC, and have two incomes. This new situation has a future, and that's what I'm drawn to more than anything, the opportunity. I haven't even discussed money because it's seemingly irrelevant to me at this point as long as I can keep animating to pay bills... at least there's a quasi-exciting future in it.

The fears: I won't be able to move back to SF if I end up hating SLC, my rent would effectively double the second I let go of my rental agreement. Or... I might love it there and set down roots, but Kelly won't consider it. Or... I do nothing, stay here (which I'd be absolutely happy with in the short term), figure a way to make rent, and life rolls on. At least Kelly has grown to like it here enough to consider staying in the future, but this year will determine her path as yet undecided.

So there it all is, if you've made it this far. I know a few of you have made big life changes and can probably offer sage advice and hopefully mention some things I've not thought of, no matter how menial. Thoughts?

PS - please don't mention Mormons, I haven't even moved there yet and I'm sick of it coming up.

Hey, what about all the Mor....

Um, seriously though, I assume the close proximity to good mountain biking, and various other outdoor excitements will also help keep you busy and happy for at least a year or so.

In fact, if Kelly warms up to it, living in Utah might even be a sweet permanent arrangement for you two.

However, I have you two pegged in my mind as more "coastal" types and more "large cosmopolitan city" kind of people. But I'm often surprised at how malleable people are -- and besides one winter of Utah powder just might make you decide never to leave again.
Besides, with the (comparatively) lower cost of living, your animation income, her OD income, and your para-sporting gig, you guys could be quite possibly the world's most unconventional yuppies.
You know: white picket fence but skateboard halfpipe in the back yard, etc.

On the more practical side, I would try to make sure that you can visit her in Boston half a dozen times in the next year and that she can come visit you in Utah a half dozen times as well. That way you can still keep sharing "each other's worlds".

I, too, once (long ago) carried on an LDR with an East Coast girl (Boston, as well). But since we eventually failed to make it work, I feel that any more specific advice from me on this subject would be worthless. So hopefully someone else can address that aspect. Especially since you guys have been together so long that this year apart will be much more like an extended separate vacation and less like a big strain on the relationship.

Also, since I doubt I am much older, wiser, or sagelike than you, I hope that you at least gained some small value from my ramblings.

Wow Loren, I'd be bummed to see you move, but I can understand the draw that SLC has for you. I'd selfishly tell you to stay in SF, but I honestly think that this opportunity for you to do what you love as more than a hobby (well - that's good & bad, of course...) WHILE still working for your REAL income sounds too good to pass up. Sounds like your friends' business needs someone to focus on expanding and running their business - since you'll be Kelly-less for a year, you can really focus on that.

I hear what you are saying about coming back to SF with the rent situation, but dude - if SLC doesn't work out, or you change your mind for whatever reason, you can ALWAYS figure out how to get back into SF. People with much less intelligence & resources do it daily!

I think I'd go for it. I also ABSOLUTELY LOVE San Francisco, and can't presently imagine living elsewhere, but if the opportunity to pursue a dream opportunity in a semi-cool place came up, I'd also be more than tempted.

Hope that's food for thought...

- Jon

Loren,
I lived in SLC for a few months, and have close friend who lives there now (Sandy) who is building a house up Big Cottonwood Canyon. He's the kind of guy who can rub two pennies together and make a nickel. He's also the most badassed outdoors freak I know - backcountry telemark skiing mostly but also mountain biking and of course hiking. He loves SLC, simply because of the massive quantity of nearby outdoor adventure options. The city itself, Mo and all, is oppressively suburban. Recently, Sandy voters voted for a Walmart over a park. Mind you the next nearest Walmart is three miles away.

That said, there is a very strong community of great outdoor people there, which provide a counterweight to the otherwise overwhelming whitebread-ness of the area. From what I know of you from posts here, I think you'd like it.

What's the worst that could happen anyway? You don't like it? Well, then aside from not keeping you current apartment, how would your situation be different from your current state of affairs?

I say go, it sounds like a great opportunity.

-Zeke

You might as well move around while your young and moving is easier..Like they say:

Do it..
Go for it
Whatever ....it.

Go for it. The question is, which "it" ?

If you want to keep the babe, you must go east with her, and paraglide in Franconia Notch etc..

Otherwise, convince yourself the relationship will work out (it won't), and go for the Utah opportunity. Pity it ain't closer to Moab, but things are nice all through that area, if you steer clear of the Mor^H^H^Hlocal radicals.

Cheers!

Any possibility of subletting your apartment in SF while you're gone? Is it prohibited in your lease?

If you end up sticking with the relationship, your combined income will be more than sufficient to get back into the SFO rental market (although it may be a while before she starts getting the bigger bucks). If the relationship gives out, then you'd be looking for a different apartment, regardless.

Utah, as others have pointed out, is an outdoors dream. Yeah, they only sell watered-down beer, but if you're going to be anywhere in Utah, SLC is probably as good as you can get, in terms of having diverse cultures and whatnot. (Years ago, I had three job offers I was deciding among: U. Wisconsin-Madison, U. Utah-Salt Lake, and Rice University in Houston. I ended up going to Houston, but it wasn't an easy choice.)

Thanks guys... the more I talk to people and get reactions the more it seems like my gut instinct to do it is correct. The rest will sort itself out I guess.

@ Music: Yeah, I've always (well, since moving here) pegged myself as a coastal type and have said on repeated occasions that I never want to live in a land locked state, as has Kelly. But, as long as there is something that fills the void of the ocean at least in the ways I enjoy it, I think I can get over it. I would miss the beach dearly though... i think the sound of the waves is ingrained in my mood. I haven't really thought about how much time I spend near the water... and with flying and kiting... it's a LOT. And the visiting thing is KEY. That definitely made our last stint apart easily bearable.. visiting as often as possible. I hadn't factored that into this coming year yet. But setting some sort of schedule is a great idea. Thanks for that.

@ Jon: You point out something I've just realized. Everyone telling me not to do it says so for selfish reasons! Haha. And you're right about getting back here I guess... many people with fewer resources do it all the time. Just the part about knowing what I WAS paying would kill me.

@ Zeke: You are absolutely right about the outdoors community there. That's why the area reminds me of Boulder so much. Despite the insane housing prices in Boulder, there's a hard core group of outdoors enthusiasts who are broke as hell but make it work just to be in the area. SLC offers some of the most amazing adventures in the country, as well as a few benefits of a larger city. I'm realizing that more and more.

@ Redrum: No regrets right!?

@ Mark: If the relationship doesn't work out, it won't be because I move to Utah. It will be because I don't want to live where Kelly does and visa versa, wherever that may be. You're right on that point. But if you are implying we won't make it through the year, I'd say there's a much larger chance we will than we won't. It's what happens on the other side of the year that determines that.

@ Bitt: Nope. Have to have the permission of the landlords and no way they're giving us that.

@ Dan: Good points. It's going to take a while for Kelly to get established and start making the green, but the combined incomes will help greatly. Hadn't looked at it that way.

Thanks guys. Sometimes you just need a little reassurance. =]

Best of luck to you! It sounds like you're going somewhere that really suits you.

I had a house in college and rented two of the rooms out to people. In two successive years I had one room rented to guys with "LDRs." Both of them made it through the year just fine and are now married to the girls. I always hear that people break up because of the distance, but I don't buy it. It looks like you know this, so I'm sure that you two will be fine. I hope you come to an agreement on where you want to live afterwards.

ObVonnegut: Peculiar travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god. Or possibly in your case Mor... sorry

Peter

Loren,
I don't know your bad east coast experiences, but I can vouch that there is some adventure to be had in NH. The attached pic is a week and a half ago. I'd tell you where, but then I'd have to kill you.

-Zeke

Huntingtons Ravine, probably the South Gully, or maybe the lower stretch of Pinnacle Gully.

EDIT: or high up to the far left side of Tuckerman.

Cheers!

In college, my best friend was in a LDR with his girlfriend for four years, with no break for summer. They're now happily married with 2 kids. It can easily be done.

Loren,

I lived in Utah for 12 years (in Provo, about 40 miles south of SLC). I don't exactly know you beyond what I read here, but from that I think you would like it there. In fact, when I read the subject of the post, before I read the post itself, I thought to myself, "Oh, Loren. That's the flying dude. He'd totally dig Point of the Mountain."

Like others have said, if you like to be outdoors at all, Utah's a really great place. I didn't take much advantage of it while I was there, but when every time I'm back I think, "Wow, these mountains/trees/canyons/whatever are really stunning!". You've got the mountains, of course, and all the great canyons, and really nice forested areas, and even the stuff like the salt flats to the west. You've got that amazing skiing in the winter, and hiking, biking, camping, or paragliding/sailing/whatevering in the summer. I know they race just about everything on the salt flats; I'm sure there's got to be some sort of racing of those kite car things there, too.

Culturally, SLC's not oppressive. It's obvious who the dominant religious and ethnic groups are, but that's not overbearing. Diversity is there, and not totally as hidden away as one might think, although not quite so obvious as other places like SF. Yeah, whitebread suburbia pretty much sums up much of the area on the surface (especially Draper and Sandy) but the other side of life is there too. You just have to go look for it, and not even look that hard either.

I think there are still misperceptions out there (even though said misperceptions are rooted in reality) that would color what people might think of coming to visit or live in Utah. It's important to remember that the makeup of Utah has changed a lot in the last 20 years. LDS members aren't even a majority in the SLC area anymore (although, like I said, that doesn't mean you wouldn't notice it). Utah has some strange state liquor laws, though nowhere near as bad as some counties in Texas or the south. Regarding beer, I'm a teetotaler, so I can't tell you the difference from personal experience, but the idea that Utah beer is significantly weaker is a bit of a myth based on the different calculations used by other states, and that for most affected beers it's only slightly weaker. You won't find the stronger beers in the grocery store, though. The hard stuff's still available in liquor stores, just not grocery stores. I do know there are a number of very well regarded brew pubs and microbreweries in Utah.

Another thing about SLC: KXRK has the only morning radio show that I can stand to listen to for more than 5 seconds without wanting to stab myself in the ear with a fork. That must count for something. Also, the last few years I was there, I went to the Sundance film festival each year, and I miss not being able to do that now that I'm gone.

So, I think that you'd like it, but if you didn't, big deal. It's only a year in that case, and you could then go to Boston, or back to SF with a bigger combined income, or wherever you want to go. SLC is a big hub airport so it's cheap to fly to Boston or anywhere else to visit in the meantime.

Bzzt!

I let Mark know via PM. If anyone else really wants to know, PM me (I don't want to jack Loren's thread).

-Zeke

I lived in Utah for a few years (a long time ago) and this thread made me miss it. At least I'm within driving distance of a lot of good parts, just not all of it for a weekend getaway. I still think Bryce and Zion are two of the most amazing places on the planet.

Like everyone else says, I say go to Utah. I moved to Oregon in large part because I got tired of making a three hour drive every weekend during the summer, just so I could go whitewater kayaking. Which brings up the one point...

Quote:
Like others have said, if you like to be outdoors at all, Utah's a really great place.

I've seen a reasonably large chunk of this continent, and as far as I can tell, if you like to be outdoors at all, pretty much anywhere can be a really great place, if you have the right mindset, and the adaptability to try different outdoor activities.

Dang bbs ate my post...

Anyways you'll love it here. I live in the mouth of Little Cottonwood canyon, and love the outdoor activities offered. I've never gone paragliding, but from what I hear from a friend who works for an local outdoors show, the sport is getting more and more popular here, so the work should always be good. If you ever want to go Mountain biking, skiing, or 4-wheeling at the sand dunes let me know. You'd be going with a non-drinking Mormon, but we're not all jerks about religion, (Although unfortunately there are some people that are)

And let it be known I would have voted against Walmart, but I live just outside the city limits.

Sorry guys, Thanks for all the responses. Will reply more in a couple days... Kelly's family is here for her graduation and it's a flogging nightmare...

Yes the liquor laws in Utah are pretty strange. But it is not surpirsing when you realize that all of the members of the alcohol board are mormons whoe probably never drank and also believe that drinking alcohol is a mortal sin. (At least that is how was a few years ago).

I remember a visit there and it was illegal for the bar tenders to poor a full glass of wine. It could only be like 1/4 full. you had to finish your current drink before ordering another and the funniest part was the limiters on the liquor bottles that would only allow a predetermined amount to be poored at a time. Maybe that made measuring a little easier, but it was very difficult to get a strong (decent) drink. Not to mention, your paying high prices for anything decent.

But, I'm just a drink lover so for that reason I stay clear of the state (I'm not an outdoorsman - so there is not much pull).

If you are not into strong drinks, it may not be an issue to you. Besides, you can probably sneak some stuff in from other states.

But I have to ask, are you sure you want to rule out the east coast?

Hey, c'mon. Snowboarding? Sure beats driving to Tahoe and the powder is supposedly amazing around SLC - Park City, that sort of thing. Never been there myself but it's on the "to ride" list

Hugo

@ Zeke: Wow, nice shot. but do you have a paraglider launch out your back door? Heheh...

@ Aaron: Thanks for your insights man. And that link, interesting reading. Not a huge drinker so I'm not worried about it at all. In fact I very rarely buy beer... I only drink it if it's offered to me or if I'm having a crawfish boil! And you are right about the outdoor opportunities. I'm going to have to seriously motivate to take advantage of everything that's around there, and luckily with the community I'll be around I don't think that will be hard.

@ Tim: I'm SO looking forward to going to Bryce and Zion. Been wanting to visit there for many many years.

@ Tony: Thanks man. Hope all is working out for you as well!

@ canuckInOR: Very good point. If you can adapt your outdoors sporting interests, you are definitely correct. I've been trying to convince myself that I could get into powered paragliding if I ever have to move to a flat state.

@ Michael: Hell yes! I'll definitely take you up on your 4-wheeling offer. Never done that, always wanted to. No worries about religious affiliations, as long as it doesn't HAVE to be a topic of conversation, I get along with pretty much all types.

@ Brent: I'm not totally sure about ruling out the East coast... I just know for sure that right now isn't the right time for it. The current love of my life, Paragliding, is in super short supply out there, as is the kiting industry. And, judging from my many visits, it just never felt right. Call it the vibe, the aura, the zeitgeist, whatever... I just never jibed with the places II've been out there. I'm talking the North East mostly. There's something about being around people of the same mindset that can make a place feel like home even if it's far from it.

SO... I'm doing it. Handing in my notice to the landlord here today and moving on June 30th or so. Scared out of my wits... but there's so much to get done before then that I won't have much time to think about it.

PS - anyone have any tips about the actual logistics of MOVING? Gotchas and stuff that happened to you that I might not think of? I've got a truck reserved with Penske after doing some research and deciding to go with them over the ABF U-Pack moving.

By all means dump as much as you can. Takes a lot less time and effort.
Be Ruthless!

You can look at it as a chance to get new better spec stuff should you find you even need to replace the binned items.

Very nice, everything I keep in mind for moving people.

The only thing I have to say is avoid penske trucks.. budget does a better job with keeping their trucks working.

I recently did a cross-country move (MN to CA) in a penske (E300 16' truck) worked ok.. the truck was limited to 75mph, which sucks, but worked ok as a cruise control.. (most rental trucks don't have cruise)

I wish they had a diesel/manual option in the non-commercial rentals.. would make driving a lot less sucky. 4 speed autos are TERRIBLE at getting over mountains.

Oh, I seem to have gotten my directions confused.

I thought you meant "in" by "down".

Nevermind.

I'm here, unpacked (from the truck, no where near from the boxes), and it all went pretty smoothly. Penske rules. Fark U-Haul. Whomever suggested getting a ton of rope (I think CanuckInOR) thanks, I wouldn't have remembered that and it was invaluable. I bought a cheap spool of rope and it was perfect.

Got my first few flights in the past couple days and still can't believe this is my new home. It was 107 f'n degrees today in the valley, not used to that by a LONG stretch. All of this walking around barefoot in shorts and a t-shirt at night is freaking me out.

Thanks again for all the advice guys!

Welcome to the valley! Now there are 3 empegs that I'm aware of here.

Did you make it to Big Cottonwood Canyon and back for one of those flights? It's awesome how far you can go along the front. What really sucks about the heat is you'll get used to it, then we'll cool off and see highs in the teens or 20's in January. Then comes the heat again.

Welcome again!