#302311 - 20/09/2007 20:54
Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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First let me start by saying that by 'Canadians' I don't just mean people who live in Canada. In contrast to the places I've been to in the US, Southern Ontario isn't really a melting pot. There are more nationalities and ethnicities living here than anywhere else I can think of and most keep strong roots to their cultures and customs.
So this past weekend I attended the wedding of a couple of our friends. These are people my fiancée met through work over two years ago and we've become somewhat close. The wedding ceremony and reception were at a private golf club and the setup was quite decent, with a candle-lit sunset ceremony and all.
Since we're planning a reception of our own for next June I'm always curious about costs and "income." Long story short, these friends made back less than half of what it cost them to host the function. WTF!
I know their per-plate cost and we put in about 3x that for the both of us. Obviously many didn't cover their plate cost. That's bloody rude. But to make matters more embarrassing, a couple of people didn't bring a gift of any kind!
The expected gift in many cultures is cash. That's certainly the case for most European and asian cultures. The bride is Vietnamese/Chinese and the groom Polish. As is custom in Chinese tradition they sent out a small red envelope with the invitations. Many people at their work were "offended" that they would expect cash as a gift. WTF! Have these people never been to a wedding in this country that wasn't some anglo-trash cold-cut and beer setup?
personally, I wouldn't think of attending someone's wedding and giving anything but cash unless they specifically asked for something else instead, like via a registry for instance, and mentioned something about not wanting currency.
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#302312 - 20/09/2007 21:12
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
Long story short, these friends made back less than half of what it cost them to host the function. WTF!
Does not compute.
You judge your close friends by the value of their gift?
Clue- it's *your* wedding that you are sharing with *them*.
They are paying you the respect of attending.
Why are you asking/demanding more?
WTF?
Do you also 'keep score' at birthdays and Christmas?
This all sounds extremely shallow. Let me know if I'm confused on that point.
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#302313 - 20/09/2007 21:15
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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old hand
Registered: 09/01/2002
Posts: 702
Loc: Tacoma,WA
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I don't know from my Middle-America upbringing point-of-view it seems downright petty to calculate your costs and income of a wedding. I know we didn't recoup the cost of our wedding, in fact I can't think of many people I know that did.
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#302314 - 20/09/2007 21:21
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
But to make matters more embarrassing, a couple of people didn't bring a gift of any kind!
Not bringing anything at all is a tad rude.
Quote:
Many people at their work were "offended" that they would expect cash as a gift.
It used to be that cash would be classed as a tacky last minute gift because you didn't put any thought into it (not that buying something out of a registry requires much thought) but recently it appears to have become much more acceptable.
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I know we didn't recoup the cost of our wedding, in fact I can't think of many people I know that did.
I've never had a wedding myself but I know a few people who have had one and none of them have ever recouped it. I've always thought of weddings as costing a fortune.
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#302315 - 20/09/2007 21:25
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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So when can we expect to see tickets for your wedding up on ticketmaster.com  (this is a joke, I'm just pulling your leg ) As a general rule you don't outright ask for cash at an English wedding, if I thought I was invited because I gave a good gift at another wedding I wouldn't go! (as the people who know me will tell you this has never happened ) Weddings shouldn't be about money anyway, for my "gift" to my girlfriend brother's wedding recently I did evening photographic cover and a reception video diary, this didn't cost me much to do, but the value to the couple was very great indeed. (BTW you can see the video diary here) I think gifts shouldn't be about the money, and a wedding certainly shouldn't be about making money or aiming to break even. Just my opinion. Cris.
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#302316 - 20/09/2007 21:27
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: tman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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We certainly budgeted to be 15 - 20 thousand out of pocket and would have been surprised if anyone had brought cash. That said, we had a couple of hundred folks at the best party I have ever seen, and everyone gave us lovely gifts (well, there was some dodgy china from a couple of relatives that still sits in our attics...the china, not the relatives)
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#302317 - 20/09/2007 21:37
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Clue- it's *your* wedding that you are sharing with *them*.
They are paying you the respect of attending.
Why are you asking/demanding more?
WTF?
Do you also 'keep score' at birthdays and Christmas?
This all sounds extremely shallow. Let me know if I'm confused on that point.
Don't take this as rude, but have you gone through the process yourself? If so, did you have the traditional ceremony/reception type of event? I can definitely see where Bruno is coming from, having just recently gone through the process myself. What he's saying may seem kind of shallow, and sometimes I feel the same way, but this is a tricky business, this wedding stuff.
But I really don't think a wedding is about the attendees. It is certainly nice of the guests to come, and I loved having so many of the people who were important to me in my life being there. But the fact is, they are getting a VERY nice free meal (at least in my case), and almost every tradition, common courtesy, and rule of etiquette say that it's polite to at least bring something, and most often to bring something that's likely to cover the cost of your plate at the dinner.
Like I said, this whole process is very tricky. The best example I have is an aspect of the gift giving that Bruno hasn't covered yet: things the couple didn't ask for, and probably don't want. Now, I've heard that many people find registries offensive. I have no idea why! No, it's not very personal to buy someone some towels, or measuring cups, or even a place setting. But it's often what they need. My wife and I moved in with almost zero things to set up house. Nothing to cook with, nothing to eat with/on, nothing to sleep on, etc. It's nice that people want to buy us art and trinkets like candlesticks, but that stuff isn't necessary.
Fortunately, our friends and family were extremely generous, and I continue to thank them for their generosity. It really blew me away. Still, there were people who went off-registry, and now we have four huge crystal bowls (each about two feet tall), and we have absolutely nowhere to put them. So we're probably going to sell or re-gift them. I feel bad about it, but that's the way it is.
On the whole, I agree with you Bruno, that's kind of cheap, especially to not bring anything. I'm pretty sure we had a few families add a guest or two and not give much.
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Matt
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#302319 - 20/09/2007 21:45
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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The only wedding I've been too where cash figured in the gifts was in Greece, but I don't know whether that's a Greek cultural thing or whether it was just about the logistical considerations, that guests coming from the UK probably wouldn't be able to bring bulky gifts or deal with a foreign-language registry. In fact, like all the weddings I've been to overseas, the couple made it clear that putting in the time and money to do the serious travelling involved, was a gift in itself and guests shouldn't feel obliged to give an additional gift. (Almost all the guests did, though.) I'm with tman, I'd expect a wedding to "operate" at a very substantial "loss", probably more substantial the more upscale the wedding. I'd be rather taken aback if I heard someone, however informally, weighing the income against the expenditure. (The tradition in the UK used to be that the couple's parents pay for the wedding, so in that sense the couple were guaranteed to turn a profit, but nowadays it's more common for the couple to pay for it themselves.) I thought this was going to be a thread about dollar parity... Peter
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#302320 - 20/09/2007 22:19
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Dignan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
Don't take this as rude, but have you gone through the process yourself?
No- but I would never imagine thinking about the wedding reception (or a birthday party even) in terms of profit/loss. I would invite people based on the budget I have and offer them what I could without expecting anything in return except their sharing the hallowed event.
Would you gauge the value of a gift you brought based on the meal you'll get?
I can certainly see that cultures are different the world over. I'm just expressing mine.
...and I don't mean to be rude, either, though I was quite hasty in my reply.
With deepest sincerity- good luck, Bruno- may all your dreams be fulfilled!
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#302321 - 20/09/2007 22:29
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Plan your wedding/reception as if you expect NOTHING in return.
Then you'll be thrilled and amazingly thankful for any gift your guests give. And you won't be in massive debt. Bonus!
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~ John
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#302322 - 20/09/2007 23:17
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but it seems to me that you're the one being cheap.
My wife and I think this is the most absurd thing we've ever heard about. Making money on your wedding? Ridiculous.
I have never thought of a big wedding as anything but a party for the attendees. Certainly it's traditional for wedding guests to bring presents, but I've never thought of that to be any sort of compensation for the party. It's a gift. If someone was getting married and you attended the wedding at their house, would you not give a gift because it had no cost to them? If a friend invited you to a party they were throwing, would you give them cash to recoup their costs?
I feel like I should say more, but I am totally dumbstruck by the question.
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Bitt Faulk
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#302323 - 21/09/2007 03:39
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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This wasn't a calculation thing nor weighing of profits. It's absolutely tradition and part of many cultures that gifts at the wedding are monetary. Certainly this is a HUGE asian thing so much so that they even have special envelopes for it. I don't know anyone who has planned a wedding looking forward to profits. Profits happen and sometimes they don't. The bride and groom will probably want to open everything to know who to send thank you notes to and what to write in them (if making them personal). So these are observations related to me from others.
I'm going to Portugal to get married and I don't care/expect anyone traveling to bring or give a gift at all.
This post also wasn't about judging close friends. Every wedding has a lot more people involved that can hardly be considered close friends. Case in point this wedding I'm talking about. I believe a couple of the guests that brought nothing were co-workers in senior positions at the bride's company. I'm sure they weren't invited as any type of cash-grab. I don't know them and I don't know why they were invited.
As I mentioned, I live in a very multi-cultural area so I've seen it all. Many Italian weddings hire off-duty police on site to protect the cash as well as act as general security. A few years ago there were a string of wedding robberies because on a Saturday night hitting 2 or 3 weddings they could pull away with anywhere from $50 to $150k.
These friends didn't expect to make money, even though many weddings here are huge cash cows. But it was pretty insulting that some people didn't bring anything at all. The per-head cost was about $150. That's not renting some space at a community center and serving sandwiches. Open bar all night - something I know a few of these people took advantage of to the extreme.
Anyway, I would just never (not ever) go to anyone's wedding without at least covering the cost of my plate. I consider this to just be practical etiquette.
If I went to someone's wedding at their house I'd still likely bring cash unless they asked specifically for something else. Probably at least $100 per person attending ($200 for myself and a guest for instance). If they were close friends I'd give more. I've done gifts in lieu of cash at the weddings of two friends. In both cases it was 4 of us getting together to buy a TV that cost about $2000 - that was in the early 90's.
When I go to someone's house for a general party I always bring something, not cash of course. Generally always a bottle or two of wine at least. If it's someone's birthday I wouldn't show up without a gift. A wedding is not simply a get-together or a simple party. At least not the formal weddings I'm talking about. An "average" attendance is about 130 to 150 people and a sizable one is over 300. Anything under 120 I'd consider a small wedding.
I suppose there's always going to be issues when mixing cultures that don't share at least some common customs. But for me, weddings are about the bride and groom, so personally, I'll conduct myself according to their customs rather than my own if that's appropriate. That includes dress or any ceremonial functions of course. If it's my own custom to wear a T-Shirt and sweat pants, I'm not going to show up to someone's wedding in that get-up. Likewise, what kind of a tool shows up to someone's wedding wearing a white dress? That's also extremely rude (someone did this last weekend as well).
Anyway, this wasn't my wedding but I was just shocked that someone would think it's ok not to bring a gift of any kind. And also thought it was unbelievable that someone would complain about the customs/traditions of the bride and groom's culture when they were being invited. My suggestion to them would be to simply decline the invitation if they felt so strongly about it. Don't show up with a humidifier because your husband sells them in his day job and it's the gift you give to everyone. Ugh.
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#302324 - 21/09/2007 04:11
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I've never come across anyone giving cash as a gift at a wedding. We certainly didn't receive any at our wedding.
I'm afraid I'm in the camp agreeing that your question makes you sound cheap, but I guess its a culture clash kind of thing.
We very deliberately didn't have a wedding list at our wedding. If people wanted to buy us something then fine, but we would have rather had nothing than prescribe to people want they should buy us. Plenty of people didn't bring anything.
We were massively out of pocket for our wedding, we hired an island after all...
...but then we did have a brilliant weekend.
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#302326 - 21/09/2007 06:44
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
The best example I have is an aspect of the gift giving that Bruno hasn't covered yet: things the couple didn't ask for, and probably don't want. Now, I've heard that many people find registries offensive. I have no idea why!
Right, yes. I'd always thought wedding registries were a bit cynical and distasteful, until the first wedding I went to where I was "behind the scenes" a bit (my cousin), and all of a sudden I realised what the problem was they were trying to solve...
Quote:
bowls (each about two feet tall), and we have absolutely nowhere to put them.
...and in fact it was bowls that did my cousin in: all very nice bowls, mind you, but so many of them and so impractical. Four more side-plates for their dinner-service or whatever might not seem so glamorous, but they got used and cherished and so by any standards were the Better Gift.
The other thing I'll add to the whole price/performance side of weddings is that, of course, the expense of the event is largely determined by how wealthy the couple or their parents are, whereas the expense of the gifts is largely determined by how wealthy each individual guest is. Unless all your guests are from precisely your social stratum, there's going to be disparities there. And in fact a wedding conducted on a lowish budget can be a sign that maybe the couple could do with a bit of extra consideration in the gift department.
It also depends on the couple's circumstances: a lot of these traditions came into being at a time when couples were almost invariably setting up home for the first time simultaneously with getting married. Which still does happen, of course, but I bet it's not the majority case any more. Most weddings I've been to, one or both of the couple had been living independently anyway, and starting their lives together was more about getting rid of duplicate household items than any need for new ones...
Peter
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#302327 - 21/09/2007 06:51
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Quote:
, we hired an island after all...
Wow - where was that? We would have loved to, as both Claire and I are very keen sailors, but it just wasn't going to be anywhere near our budget.
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#302329 - 21/09/2007 10:49
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Profits happen and sometimes they don't.
My point is that they never, ever, ever do. From my point of view, this is beyond naive. My wife said, through peals of laughter, "let me guess: a man asked this." The whole notion of the crux of your post is so outside the realm of anything I'd ever considered as to make it completely absurd.
Quote:
Anyway, I would just never (not ever) go to anyone's wedding without at least covering the cost of my plate. I consider this to just be practical etiquette.
So does this mean you would always bring cash? And calculate the cost of the wedding? I'm not the etiquette expert in my household, but if it were my party, I'd honestly find that rather offensive. It's an implication that I can't afford the party that I'm throwing. Cash as a gift is simply outre, either in giving or in requesting.
If I went to someone's wedding at their house I'd still likely bring cash unless they asked specifically for something else.
I would more likely bring nothing than cash. Cash is insulting. Of course, as you say, some cultures view that as the appropriate gift, and far be it for me to judge someone else's culture, but if we're talking about people anywhere even vaguely close to my peer group, which basically means anyone who grew up in the US without the direct influence of recent immigrants, there is no way any of what you're saying even makes sense.
Also, how can you be sure that the people you said didn't bring anything didn't send their gifts beforehand? I know that when I got married, I had a huge stack of gifts sent to me well before the wedding. The obvious answer is that the bride told you, but an assumption is unwarranted.
I'm not trying to be insulting here, I'm just trying to point out that you're either wildly mistaken (in which case I am being insulting -- sorry about that), or Canadian wedding culture is wildly different from American.
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Bitt Faulk
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#302330 - 21/09/2007 11:06
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Now that I've had a chance to put my head back on, let me respond to some specific points. Quote:
these friends made back less than half of what it cost them to host the function
The notion that you expect anything in compensation for the wedding is patently ridiculous in my culture. Showing up without a gift at all would be slightly rude, but not by a lot. The bride failing to send out thank-you notes would be a far worse crime.
Quote:
Many people at their work were "offended" that they would expect cash as a gift. WTF! Have these people never been to a wedding in this country that wasn't some anglo-trash cold-cut and beer setup?
White trash is about the only group that I can think of as far as "regular Americans" go where cash would be an appropriate gift. And I'm not even sure of that. Period. End of story. Honestly, I doubt that many people these days would be terribly offended by cash as a gift, but their parents definitely would be.
Think of it this way: if someone invited you to a party, would you bring cash as a hostess gift? Why not? To me, the same thinking applies to a wedding, with the additional assumption that the party wasn't really thrown by the bride and groom to begin with, but by the bride's family, so you're really giving the compensatory cash to the guest of honor.
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personally, I wouldn't think of attending someone's wedding and giving anything but cash unless they specifically asked for something else instead, like via a registry for instance, and mentioned something about not wanting currency.
In polite society, the notion of not having a registry is unheard-of. If there's a party big enough that you even begin to be worried about the cost of it, then there's a registry. Buying off-registry (unless you're very close friends or family) is somewhat insulting. And I can guarantee that cash is not on the registry. As with all gifts of cash, it implies that you didn't bother to think about what the giftee wanted, compounded by the fact that there was an easy-to-access, public list of what was wanted.
I will point out that my culture is based in the vaguely upper-class Southern US, which certainly has a bearing on my viewpoint, but I don't think I'm out of line with most of polite society in the entire US. (Well, at least in what I'm saying.)
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#302331 - 21/09/2007 11:11
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
It also depends on the couple's circumstances: a lot of these traditions came into being at a time when couples were almost invariably setting up home for the first time simultaneously with getting married. Which still does happen, of course, but I bet it's not the majority case any more.
I'm guessing I'm one of the younger people here, because it sounds like everyone else was in a different state in their life. My wife and I more or less depended on the gifts we received in order to set up our home. And my closest relatives gave us a check. We bought our bedroom furniture with that money.
I don't think I'd refer to the gift-giving with the terms that Bruno did, but in general I'm surprised that so many people don't think it's rude to not give gifts at a wedding.
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Matt
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#302332 - 21/09/2007 11:16
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: andy]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Attachments
303735-burgh1.jpg (97 downloads)
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Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#302333 - 21/09/2007 11:42
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I'd forgotten about that photo Patrick. Any chance you could email me a full res copy of that so we can get a print done ?
[my name]@norman.cx
Edited by andy (21/09/2007 11:50)
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#302334 - 21/09/2007 11:56
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: pca]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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from one of your UAV's Patrick? Nice pic. That does look beautiful.
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#302335 - 21/09/2007 12:46
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
I'm guessing I'm one of the younger people here, because it sounds like everyone else was in a different state in their life. My wife and I more or less depended on the gifts we received in order to set up our home.
Yeah, that's what held me back from writing "that never happens any more"  ... I'm not sure I can think of anyone else I know who wasn't living independently, whether together or separately, before getting married -- not even my parents. (Maybe my grandparents, I suppose.)
Peter
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#302336 - 21/09/2007 12:49
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Please tell me that's you in the bottom right corner, Patrick...
Peter
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#302337 - 21/09/2007 12:50
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I'd say the cultures are 180 polar opposites Bitt. There are a number of people in this country that share the same cultural cues you've mentioned, but as I said, since this area is heavily multi-cultural with strong ties to tradition and heritage, it's important for a great many people to preserve that and follow these customs. If you're invited to a wedding, it's the bride and groom's thing and you should follow their customs.
Yes, I was told by the bride. The people who didn't bring anything literally brought nothing. Not even a greeting card.
I've not been to any wedding reception that was anything like a regular party so it's pointless to compare the two trying to draw some type of parity in acceptable gifts.
I don't like the concept of a registry for the same reasons some other people mentioned. Besides, I've been living with my fiancée for 5 years and we have pretty much everything we want and need. I could register for things like a 50" LCD TV or a Nikon D300, but that's just stupid.
I don't pre-evaluate how much a wedding is going to cost before deciding how much to give. But I'd never give a gift or cash of less than $100 or $150 (double including my SO).
Your wife was right that it was a man posting this, but that's more to do with where it's being posted rather than the contents. After all I told you it was the bride that mentioned this to me. The couple were both offended. It's definitely a cultural thing and I imagine in the US due to the melting-pot effect the situation is going to be a lot different and more homogeneous. Maybe I should have done a better job setting up the context so as not to receive posts saying that *I* was cheap - this wasn't my wedding. I respect the customs and cultural differences of others, so even though I'd always bring something, if I was going to a wedding where cash was not appropriate, I'd obviously bring something else. But out of the 20 or more weddings I've been to, I've never been to one where cash wasn't appropriate. And I'm talking about a few large bills with a nice card and a good hand-written note. Not a paper bag with 5's and 10's.
In this area of the country you have to be open and aware of a wide assortment of customs and traditions and acting as if the society is one white soup is just insulting in my opinion. And that's what was going on here with the people from work complaining. They were putting their own opinions (and extreme tackiness with regards to the humidifier lady) ahead of the customs of the people being celebrated.
For many people it's still standard practice that the parents (usually of the bride) will pay for and set up the whole wedding. These friends paid for everything themselves as far as I know and I'll expect to do the same for my own.
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#302338 - 21/09/2007 13:06
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: peter]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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No, I was about half a mile away in that direction...
pca
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Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#302339 - 21/09/2007 15:00
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Just to throw my .2c in... I'm from Louisiana, USA, and my cultural upbringing and experience jive exactly with Bitt's. And I do mean EXACTLY. I had no idea it was custom anywhere to expect your wedding to be paid for by the guests. Ya learn something new every day.
Side note... it HAS always sorta bugged me that weddings cost attendees involved a lot of money. Plane tickets, dresses, tuxes, etc. Gifts are another thing. But, I have friends whom are reasonably poor and wedding are a huge burden.
Edited by loren (21/09/2007 15:03)
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#302340 - 21/09/2007 15:06
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
it's the bride and groom's thing and you should follow their customs.
Agreed, but you were asking about cultural differences, and I told you how it would work where I live, and where I live, you would be the cheap one for even considering such questions.
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Bitt Faulk
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#302341 - 21/09/2007 15:42
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/05/2002
Posts: 205
Loc: Virginia, USA
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I believe that the focus of hybrid8's question was on the cultural differences between the US and many others around the world as opposed to cash gifts at weddings.
My wife is from Laos and we do alot of entertaining. She is constantly shocked when an "American" guest asks if they should bring anything to the dinner. She believes that they should already know that there is an unspoken "list" of things to bring to such a function; wine, champaign, flowers, etc. She also doesn't understand why some people bring nothing to parties or dinners that someone hosts.
Our non-American guests (Europeans, Asians, middle-easterners) all seem to bring something to dinner. Elsewhere in the world, it is conisdered rude to not show some sort of appreciation for the effort that the host makes aside fom a simple Thank you.
In our wedding, we did not make a registry and we announced that if anyone wanted to give us a wedding gift, that it had to be in an envelope - a suttle reference to monetary-only gifts. Of course, we were already well-established, so a registry wouldn't have made sense.
It is mainly cultural (which is evidenced by some of the responses here). Imagine calling a Japanese man cheap for not leaving a tip in a restaurant here when it is rather insulting or irritating to tip in Japan.
The funny thing is that is seems to be a contemporary cultural thing, because when we invite older Americans (60+ years old), they always bring smething.
Personally, I like the idea of bringing something to dinner/weddings. It seems like the right thing to do.
Edited by bbowman (21/09/2007 16:35)
_________________________
Brent
RioCar MK][a 20GB+80GB
'96 Saab 900s (Not any more)
Still looking for a good way to install in a 2010 BMW 3 series with iDrive/NAV
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#302342 - 21/09/2007 15:48
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: bbowman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
She is constantly shocked when an "American" guest asks if they should bring anything to the dinner.
There's a lot of tradition in "covered-dish dinners" in the Southern US and probably in large portions of the rest of the US, too. This is not a query as to if they should bring something, but what they should bring. It's not unknown for guests to bring various side dishes, from vegetable casseroles to starches to desserts.
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Bitt Faulk
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#302343 - 21/09/2007 16:24
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: bbowman]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 777
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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Quote:
The funny thing is that is seems to be a contemporary cultural thing, because when we invite older Americans (60+ years old), they always bring smething.
I, too, was born and raised in the South (of the US). I was taught to always bring something. I usually bring a bottle of wine to friends' parties.
But always a bottle of bourbon to family parties.
-jk
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#302344 - 21/09/2007 18:08
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Clue- it's *your* wedding that you are sharing with *them*.
They are paying you the respect of attending.
Why are you asking/demanding more?
WTF?
Do you also 'keep score' at birthdays and Christmas?
This all sounds extremely shallow. Let me know if I'm confused on that point.
Don't take this as rude, but have you gone through the process yourself? If so, did you have the traditional ceremony/reception type of event? I can definitely see where Bruno is coming from, having just recently gone through the process myself. What he's saying may seem kind of shallow, and sometimes I feel the same way, but this is a tricky business, this wedding stuff.
I just got married in August. I agree 100% with Robotic. We didn't invite people so that we could get prezzies, we invited them because we wanted to share our wedding with them. The only gift desired of them was their attendance -- and we made that clear in the invitation.
Quote:
But I really don't think a wedding is about the attendees. It is certainly nice of the guests to come, and I loved having so many of the people who were important to me in my life being there. But the fact is, they are getting a VERY nice free meal (at least in my case), and almost every tradition, common courtesy, and rule of etiquette say that it's polite to at least bring something, and most often to bring something that's likely to cover the cost of your plate at the dinner.
And since those people were so important to me in my life, the least I can do for them in return, is pay for the cost of their meal, and evening, without some sort of unwritten expectation that there should be any return.
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#302345 - 21/09/2007 18:14
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
bowls (each about two feet tall), and we have absolutely nowhere to put them.
...and in fact it was bowls that did my cousin in: all very nice bowls, mind you
Dang... we got bowls, too! What is it that makes people think, "hey, why don't I give them a bowl?".
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#302346 - 21/09/2007 19:19
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I just got married in August. I agree 100% with Robotic. We didn't invite people so that we could get prezzies
I never said I did. That's a little insulting.
I guess I see a difference between expecting gifts (I wasn't), and thinking it's polite for people to do so (that's me). You're implying a third, that we practically put on our wedding in order to get gifts.
In this area, it is the standard thing to bring gifts. That's what you do, you bring a gift. I do, and so does everyone I've ever met around here.
_________________________
Matt
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#302347 - 21/09/2007 21:05
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I should have totally done at least a minor in anthropology and/or sociology. This kind of thing fascinates me to no end. That's why I posted in the first place. Again, I was in a real hurry when I wrote the initial post - about to step out to pick up food for the evening as we were hosting a couple of friends who just returned from a year away. My fiancée was already giving me dirty looks before I got half way through. In retrospect I could have worded the subject so it would have a little less impact since from the initial replies I think it took the focus away from what I actually wanted to discuss. There are not only huge differences between any part of Canada and the US, but also within each country, both covering such an enormous landscape. In my experience however, the US does tend toward a more homogeneous society. I can still remember being in Cape Cod and going to a supposedly "Portuguese" style bakery that might as well have been anything but and the people at the counter were in fact a little offensive about the national/cultural implications/associations. In Canada even many second generation citizens will still link themselves to the roots of their parents/grandparents. Certainly nearly every first generation Canadian I've ever met also considers themselves "xxxxx" (whatever the nationality of their parents). So many of the customs brought from Europe, Asia and Middle East stick around. And in fact some of them even rub off on the long established anglo population (at least those I know). I think it's important to consider discussions such as this in context. And again, perhaps I should have done a better job of outlining the context and/or asking about customs elsewhere. I believe in the end (or up until now anyway) the gist has been worked through and I certainly understand some additional viewpoints. I hope no one here thinks I'm any more shallow than before I had started this thread. Yes, I'm a wine snob, but really down to earth otherwise. With regards to last night's dinner... My friend, of eastern european origin, did not bring cash to my place for dinner. He did bring an amazing bottle of wine however. If anyone appreciates a fine wine, I can whole-heartedly recommend the 1994 Rioja from Torre Muga (Spain). If you can find a bottle under $100 it's well worth it.
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#302348 - 21/09/2007 21:31
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Is this where being "bowled over" comes from? Hugo
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#302349 - 21/09/2007 23:49
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: altman]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Surely that would be "over-bowled"? Pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#302350 - 22/09/2007 02:22
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: altman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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We has some amount of being bowled over. One of our guests went "off registry" and got us a hand-carved wood bowl. At least it was small enough to be reasonably easy to handle. A closer relative has some sort of mental short circuit and came to the conclusion that a desktop grandfather-ish clock contraption was just absolutely the perfect gift. They spent a sizable amount of money on it. It's never been out of its box. And never will be. And, they bought it from some obscure location where I can't return it. And where on earth could I ever re-gift it? One guy gave an ice cream maker (because "that's what he always gives"). At least it was easy to return.
In my Jewish family, cash gifts are quite common, particularly for bar/bat mitzvahs (implicit expectation: the money will be invested to send the kid to college) but also for weddings. Several people made sizable gifts. We also did a wedding registry (online at Bed Bath and Beyond) and got ourselves a nice dish pattern and so forth. One relative decided that she could find a better price on some of the bits elsewhere, causing us to ultimately end up with uneven numbers of side plates. Could be worse, but not really a big deal.
In my wife's midwestern family, buying from the registry seemed to be the common answer. I don't think anybody gave cash, but my memory is fading.
In our paper invitation, we said nothing whatsoever about gifts. On our web page (URL included on the paper), we had links to the registry.
We certainly had no expectation of anybody giving anything in particular. There are non-trivial differences in the purchasing power of some of our friends and relatives. In the end, we roughly broke even, but that's largely due to a, umm, long tailed distribution of gifts.
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#302351 - 24/09/2007 17:51
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
I just got married in August. I agree 100% with Robotic. We didn't invite people so that we could get prezzies
I never said I did. That's a little insulting.
I guess I see a difference between expecting gifts (I wasn't), and thinking it's polite for people to do so (that's me). You're implying a third, that we practically put on our wedding in order to get gifts.
Having thought about this longer, you're very right -- and I'm sorry to have insulted you. We invited people to our wedding, and told them no gifts were necessary -- yet we still expected that people would ignore our request, and bring gifts anyway. (In fact, I even had a friend tell me, "Dude, it's your wedding... I'm not showing up at your wedding without a gift.") Consequently, we also had a registry.
Going back to the original scenario, though, when the invitations contain envelopes in which people are expected to put cash, I think it's a little easier to make an assumption that the line of thinking there is "if you're coming to my wedding, you'd better put some cash in the envelope." I could easily see people being offended by that. It comes across as a "strings-attached" invitation -- if you accept this invitation, you must give money.
With the western-style invitation, the invitation is "no-strings-attached". While it may be tradition to give a gift, and it's probably rude not to give a gift, accepting the invitation is not actually an obligation to do so.
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#302352 - 24/09/2007 18:02
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In fact, it's worth pointing out that many people send gifts who do not attend the wedding at all. Usually that's people who would have attended but are unable to for whatever reason, but still. The wedding-as-event and the gift are not intrinsically conjoined; they are two leaves on the whole wedding tree.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#302353 - 24/09/2007 18:10
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
We also did a wedding registry (online at Bed Bath and Beyond) and got ourselves a nice dish pattern and so forth. One relative decided that she could find a better price on some of the bits elsewhere, causing us to ultimately end up with uneven numbers of side plates. Could be worse, but not really a big deal.
Too late to help you now, I'm sure, but when you have a registry with BB&B, they'll give you cash back on any returns for items they stock, regardless of whether or not it was on your registry, or purchased from them.
It's very handy, when you have to travel across the country to your own wedding. We took a number of items back to BB&B (even the stuff we wanted) -- with the intent to repurchase them on our return home, so that we wouldn't have to pack them in luggage.
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#302354 - 24/09/2007 18:13
Re: Are Americans as cheap as "Canadians?"
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
In fact, it's worth pointing out that many people send gifts who do not attend the wedding at all. Usually that's people who would have attended but are unable to for whatever reason, but still. The wedding-as-event and the gift are not intrinsically conjoined; they are two leaves on the whole wedding tree.
True enough -- I've been shocked by the amount of money people, who didn't attend the wedding, have sent as, or spent on, gifts.
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