#304368 - 25/11/2007 21:48
brain fart
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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just had a brain-fart...
why not re-invent the empeg? it is possible to get in-dash pc cabinet's.. what is left is to gather software or write it from scratch...
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#304369 - 25/11/2007 22:00
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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The software is the difficult part. Making something play music off a hard drive is pretty easy, but doing it well, and tailored for the car environment is the difficult part that so far no-one else has matched the empeg on.
The CarPC route seems to be cram all the features into a program sitting on top of Windows, and expect it to work well. The interfaces just don't work for the car once you get past the initial flash of some, the music capabilities offer much to be desired, and boot times and recovery times from failure are slow.
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#304370 - 25/11/2007 22:46
Re: brain fart
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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i know.... my idea was a in-dash pc.. but a case with an 7" touch screen and mainboard are only dreams... but other than that everything can be/should be fitted in a single DIN case... maybe not gps antenna and other minor things
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#304371 - 25/11/2007 23:10
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Again, software is the difficult part, not the hardware.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#304372 - 25/11/2007 23:17
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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The problem with re-inventing the empeg is...
They already tried it, and it didn't succeed in the marketplace.
It reached its audience successfully, which is us, so that's great and all. Except the audience (us) is about 4000 people total. These days, everyone else besides us would rather just have an ipod dock in their car.
And honestly? If the ipod software had enough features that matched the Empeg's features, I might be in that state of mind, too. Fortunately, Apple still doesn't "get it" (no offense, Hugo) and my most-loved features about the empeg still don't exist in the ipod after all these years. So I'm sticking with my empeg a while longer, thank you very much.
So you're welcome to go re-inventing the empeg, but I think the market for it has changed for the worse rather than better.
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#304373 - 25/11/2007 23:24
Re: brain fart
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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well the idea was to build something that has the best from all "worlds" but you might be right... small market... and yet i could be more successfull if it has the features that people want/miss...
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#304374 - 26/11/2007 00:20
Re: brain fart
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I'm with Tony. In the modern world, particularly for new cars, there's no opportunity for installing a third-party stereo. You get whatever the manufacturer lets you get, unless you're willing to endure a very high pain threshold to reengineer your dashboard.
What kills me is that, while it's entirely technically possible to wrap a very slick interface around an iPod, most manufacturer-sold car iPod integration kits are really kludges. Consider, for example, the Audi A3. The integration kit basically emulates a six-CD changer, placing your first five placelists on the first five disks, with everything else on the sixth. No search. No decent organization. Lame.
For most other vendors, iPod itegration is nothing more than a mini-phono jack. Be still my beating heart.
I wonder if part of the problem is the unwillingness of car manufacturers to tie themselves more closely to Apple. If there were a sophisticated industry standard protocol spoken by all DAPs over standard USB cabling, you'd think the car manufacturers would be all over it as a standard checkbox. Bluetooth A2DP is almost there as well. But show me a car that supports A2DP.
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#304375 - 26/11/2007 00:24
Re: brain fart
[Re: DWallach]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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well it makes me sick to see that you are forced to stick with whatever a car maker gives you....
another thing is that it's hard to get parts for an 1DIN pc.. just to find a case or barebone is hard enough
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#304377 - 26/11/2007 09:23
Re: brain fart
[Re: DWallach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Actually - the Sony head unit that I got in my new Foz has a full featured iPod link, and can take mp3 USB sticks in the front and does intelligent searching, even properly reads idv3 tags.
It is still coming out so the empeg can go in, but I think SWMBO will get the Sony in the 'Preza (she only listens to radio and I only have one radio module...)
Still got to get time to swap them over, but luckily the Foz is a japanese import, so it has DIN slots. Yay!
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#304378 - 26/11/2007 10:23
Re: brain fart
[Re: frog51]
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new poster
Registered: 05/11/2007
Posts: 37
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if the empeg was re-invented, I think today it would be alot more successful.
the only major downside is the size. single din. however for me that is 1st preference. I drive alot of older cars and even in my newer cars I can fit an empeg in if I want to. Very little modding.
However there is an alternative. A more advanced display extender could be produced. Allowing the face to snap on/off the empeg, and on/off the disply extender mount on the dash of your car.
With that being accomplished, it would be easy to add an empeg to any car.
The empeg is far superior in what it does compared to the ipod. I own several MP3 players and I know from experience just like everyone else on this BBS. Its much, much more safe to use an empeg while driving as opposed to a small ipod or zune etc.
IF the empeg were ever reinvented, I think voice commands and GPS addons would help sell dramatically.
Another 'help sell' would be advertising. I found out late myself about the empeg but far before anyone else I know or interacted with. EVERYONE knows about IPOD, but very few know about Empeg still to this day.
Still very aggravating to me that the empeg wasn't a better success. I think more advertising would have helped alot. Dealers to push to product. High end car audio shops in bigger cities to start with maybe??
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#304379 - 26/11/2007 10:29
Re: brain fart
[Re: Charles Beer]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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i agree with charles,,
advertising and the features that people want... but how the H*** do one fit both 7" touch screen and pc in a single DIN unit? impossible if you ask me
_________________________
the "monkey" who learned to check a harddrive
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#304380 - 26/11/2007 12:04
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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member
Registered: 27/01/2006
Posts: 142
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
i agree with charles,,
advertising and the features that people want... but how the H*** do one fit both 7" touch screen and pc in a single DIN unit? impossible if you ask me
How about trunk mounted but still easily accessible for bringing into the house?
For me, personally, one of the main appeals to using my vibez in the car is that when I get out of the car, I can continue listening to whatever was playing and continue on my merry way. I think portability is key to a majority of users. ($0.02)
Edited by rubennyc (26/11/2007 12:07)
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#304381 - 26/11/2007 12:09
Re: brain fart
[Re: rubennyc]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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well that could be the final option.... anyway it would be a lot more easy that way... and most touch screens has a single connector at the screens so it could be taken with you or hidden in the car... as an alternative a single DIN touch screen ?
and the pc/case could be made with a single connector too
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#304382 - 26/11/2007 19:07
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
just had a brain-fart...
why not re-invent the empeg? it is possible to get in-dash pc cabinet's.. what is left is to gather software or write it from scratch...
Ha! I wish I had a pound for every time that's been said on this forum. As great as the empeg is, it was a once in a lifetime thing, like Concorde and the British Rail APT.
Personally I'm eyeing the Parrot RK8200 and an iPod as a replacement for my empeg which appears to have suffered a show-stopping failure of its IDE bus and ethernet controller. Listening to the radio and my N95 in the car at the moment.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#304383 - 26/11/2007 19:28
Re: brain fart
[Re: andym]
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new poster
Registered: 05/11/2007
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Quote:
just had a brain-fart...
why not re-invent the empeg? it is possible to get in-dash pc cabinet's.. what is left is to gather software or write it from scratch...
Ha! I wish I had a pound for every time that's been said on this forum. As great as the empeg is, it was a once in a lifetime thing, like Concorde and the British Rail APT.
Personally I'm eyeing the Parrot RK8200 and an iPod as a replacement for my empeg which appears to have suffered a show-stopping failure of its IDE bus and ethernet controller. Listening to the radio and my N95 in the car at the moment.
I agree this project was a once in a lifetime thing. Sad but I'm glad it actually happened and that 4,000 players were produced.
I'm just saying if it were reinvented today with very slight changes and better advertising then I think it would do much better sales. Just my opinion.
To me most people would buy a more extravagant fancy MP3 player for their car. One that has a screen for nice visuals and looks/features. Then a much cheaper more portable small mp3 player for the gym, walking, etc.
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#304384 - 26/11/2007 19:32
Re: brain fart
[Re: Charles Beer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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As mentioned before, physical compatibility with cars is likely to just get worse. I think a headunit that advanced is always going to be a niche product.
For me the thought of having to maintain two mp3 players each with its own management software is a PITA.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#304385 - 26/11/2007 19:48
Re: brain fart
[Re: Charles Beer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
To me most people would buy a more extravagant fancy MP3 player for their car. One that has a screen for nice visuals and looks/features. Then a much cheaper more portable small mp3 player for the gym, walking, etc.
Operative words being "much cheaper".
I don't think you realize how expensive something like the empeg is to design, engineer, and produce. Did you know that they cost over $1500 when they were in production? That isn't because they were gouging the buyers for all they could get, either. And you know what? The development costs of the hardware were trivial compared to the costs involved with the software -- man-years of development time by highly skilled programmers.
The niche market for this product was pretty well filled by the time the first 2,000 units were sold. Sonic Blue bought empeg, saw that the first 2,000 had sold well and produced 2,000 more. Sales went flat after perhaps 1,000 of them sold, and after that they couldn't even get rid of them at less than $200 per unit. It took months before they cleared out the inventory, and I'll bet that at least half of the last 1000 units went to existing owners who bought them as spares.
The market for audiophile computer geeks willing to spend $1500 for a computer to play music in their cars is pretty limited. We were just the lucky ones who happened to be in the right place at the right time to get ours.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#304386 - 26/11/2007 19:57
Re: brain fart
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Before I was married, I was completely willing to drop 2k on an empeg. I was, however, still in college and therefore chronically broke. Now that I could easily afford it, and even though I would be willing to drop 2k on an up-to-date empeg (as in full screen color visuals, voice recognition, etc) , I now have a wife to contend with who does NOT share my same enthusiasm about my toys. In other words, I'd be in the market, except that as a family, we need a new bedroom set far more.
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#304387 - 26/11/2007 20:47
Re: brain fart
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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new poster
Registered: 05/11/2007
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Quote:
To me most people would buy a more extravagant fancy MP3 player for their car. One that has a screen for nice visuals and looks/features. Then a much cheaper more portable small mp3 player for the gym, walking, etc.
Operative words being "much cheaper".
I don't think you realize how expensive something like the empeg is to design, engineer, and produce. Did you know that they cost over $1500 when they were in production? That isn't because they were gouging the buyers for all they could get, either. And you know what? The development costs of the hardware were trivial compared to the costs involved with the software -- man-years of development time by highly skilled programmers.
The niche market for this product was pretty well filled by the time the first 2,000 units were sold. Sonic Blue bought empeg, saw that the first 2,000 had sold well and produced 2,000 more. Sales went flat after perhaps 1,000 of them sold, and after that they couldn't even get rid of them at less than $200 per unit. It took months before they cleared out the inventory, and I'll bet that at least half of the last 1000 units went to existing owners who bought them as spares.
The market for audiophile computer geeks willing to spend $1500 for a computer to play music in their cars is pretty limited. We were just the lucky ones who happened to be in the right place at the right time to get ours.
tanstaafl.
I said "much cheaper" for the smaller/portable mp3 player. Ipod or Zune or Sansa.
Then I personally would spend much more on an empeg like advanced mp3 player with all the bells and whistles.
So your telling me that the market was entirely dried up when sonic blue did the FIRESALE? If that is so then how come several people ended up buying them off ebay for around $800. Yes I know $800 USD is far less than the retail price of $1299 but still its 4x the $199 firesale price.
My point is that better advertising could have been done. I'm a tech guru myself and love gadgets and car audio but I didn't find out about the empeg until it was being liquidated.
As for newer cars not being din compatible. I suggested something like a more advanced display extender. Where the face of the empeg would be portable/removable and the empeg itself mounted in the trunk and easily removable for taking inside.
Also I know the pains and lengthy programming time that this project must have endured. I'm fully aware of that and thankful as well.
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#304388 - 26/11/2007 22:34
Re: brain fart
[Re: Charles Beer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
So your telling me that the market was entirely dried up when sonic blue did the FIRESALE? If that is so then how come several people ended up buying them off ebay for around $800. Yes I know $800 USD is far less than the retail price of $1299 but still its 4x the $199 firesale price.
Yep, the operative word there is 'several'. I think if someone magically uncovered another 1000 units they'd have a hard time shifting all of them at $800 each. Everybody who sees my empeg is impressed, but not one of them has ever said 'hey, where can I buy one from?'.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#304389 - 27/11/2007 00:11
Re: brain fart
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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just spend 1 hour on writing a list of features that i had in mind... and the damn f*** board did not post it... so here it comes as single word's feel free to ask what i mean
TV
Music
Navi
Radio
Movies
Burglar alarm
REmote engine start
wake on lan
relay board
handsfree cell call
internet/e-mail
Nightvision cam 2 for reverse cam
webcam chat
distance to car ahead warn
crossover
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#304390 - 27/11/2007 10:31
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Some of those things would require hacking your car apart to make work. I think the sort of thing you're after is being discussed in this thread.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#304392 - 27/11/2007 10:55
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Click one of the pages or go here.
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#304393 - 27/11/2007 11:07
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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anyway... these features are to only that come close to hack your car, but they can be done more or less elegant Burglar alarm - a single wire to the doorswitch that feels when doors are open REmote engine start - 2-3 relays that are coupled on the backside og the engnition key... that that big hack.. and to remove just cut hte wires Nightvision cam 2 for reverse cam... hardly no hack.. the cam could be mounted on a bracket distance to car ahead warn- the same as with the cam's 
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#304394 - 27/11/2007 12:03
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Burglar alarm - a single wire to the doorswitch that feels when doors are open
No problems then, smash the window.
Quote:
REmote engine start - 2-3 relays that are coupled on the backside og the engnition key... that that big hack.. and to remove just cut hte wires
How do you deactivate the immobiliser?
Quote:
Nightvision cam 2 for reverse cam... hardly no hack.. the cam could be mounted on a bracket
Fair enough
Quote:
distance to car ahead warn- the same as with the cam's
You'd really need radar or ultrasonics to that properly
I just think you're flogging a dead horse.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#304396 - 27/11/2007 12:10
Re: brain fart
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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Quote:
How do you deactivate the immobiliser?
insert an relay on the negative wire to the immobiliser..
Quote:
I just think you're flogging a dead horse.
well, there is a reason why i used brain fart as subject, some like the smell others don't 
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#304397 - 27/11/2007 12:17
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Quote:
How do you deactivate the immobiliser?
insert an relay on the negative wire to the immobiliser..
So you're telling me that no matter how sophisticated an immobiliser is, it can be disabled by a single relay? Somebody better give Clifford a ring and tell them they might as well all go home.....
I just don't see where you're going with this thread.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#304398 - 27/11/2007 12:51
Re: brain fart
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 22/11/2007
Posts: 475
Loc: Denmark, Odense
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Quote:
So you're telling me that no matter how sophisticated an immobiliser is, it can be disabled by a single relay?
no i'm not
Quote:
I just don't see where you're going with this thread.
well just had an idea, sorry if i stepped on somebody's feet
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#304399 - 27/11/2007 14:01
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
sorry if i stepped on somebody's feet
What it is is this: We love our empegs. They're so great that we get frustrated that other people don't see their brilliance. We'd like to see them everywhere. These days, we're resigned to the fact that it's not going to happen.
Then some Johnny-come-lately (no offence) wanders in here and says "I've got a great idea!". One that we've seen at least twice a year for the last 8 years...
We're a bit bored with it, to be honest.
Myself, I'd like to see less mental masturbation and more actual action. But I'm not holding my breath.
_________________________
-- roger
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#304401 - 28/11/2007 19:02
Re: brain fart
[Re: Boelle]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
REmote engine start - 2-3 relays that are coupled on the backside og the engnition key...
Ummm... no.
Keep in mind I live in Alaska, where almost certainly a higher percentage of cars are remote-start equipped than anywhere else.
Let's see now...
1) Anti-grind circuitry. You have to have a way of disengaging the starter when the engine starts.
2) Retry circuitry. If it doesn't catch the first time, do you re-try, and if so, how many times? Or does it just sit there with the ignition on, "thinking" it is running while your battery drains?
3) Security. "Oh, look -- some guy left his car running. Let's take it." You have to have an automatic shutoff if someone touches the brake pedal or gas pedal or shift lever.
4) Over-rev circuitry. You have to sense the engine RPMs and shut it down if it is running too fast.
5) Neutral sense circuitry. You don't want the car to start up and go through your (closed) garage door and end up on your neighbor's lawn.
6) Timer circuitry. You don't want the car to sit there running until it runs out of gas or overheats if you unknowingly or accidentally start it.
7) Trasmitter circuitry. You have to have a transmitter to signal the car that it is time to start.
8) Receiver circuitry. You have to have a receiver in the car to actually trigger the "...2-3 relays that are coupled on the backside og the engnition key... " along with all the other required circuitry.
There's more, but that covers the high points. In other words, a remote start is not a simple upgrade. You'll spend anywhere from $300-$600 to have a specialty shop install one in your car here in Alaska, and they do it in volume here.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#304402 - 29/11/2007 15:56
Re: brain fart
[Re: andym]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/05/2002
Posts: 205
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
For me the thought of having to maintain two mp3 players each with its own management software is a PITA.
Boelle,
I agree with this 100%. If there were ever to be another empeg, it would have to cater to the now "developed" digital music listening community and be compatible with current personal "mp3" players. The storage of the music would be on the player and not on the empeg. The empeg would just be interface for the music collection and some sort of "universal cradle" would be necessary for all of the different iPods, Zunes, or whatever people are using.
Sounds like a very daunting task - but please, make one. I'm sure that we would love to see it. When I came on this list back around 2002, I think I even started the same type of thread. Not that we want to stiffle your fresh desire to revive the empeg's hay day, We are just frustrated that it hasn't actually been done yet and as Roger points out, we love our empegs (as do you) and hate to see such a limited future with them.
_________________________
Brent
RioCar MK][a 20GB+80GB
'96 Saab 900s (Not any more)
Still looking for a good way to install in a 2010 BMW 3 series with iDrive/NAV
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#304403 - 29/11/2007 18:13
Re: brain fart
[Re: bbowman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I can only see two things possibly gaining traction in the retail market.
1. Apple releases their own head unit that interfaces with an ipod (the ipod would plug into it like a cassette in an old deck and the headunit would provide the display)
2. A universal product is made in the form of a wide screen display and input unit. This would be attached to the car in addition to the existing head unit and would interface with an ipod and/or other popular players. It provides it own "Really Great" UI and could be implemented to do it own decoding (thereby the connected unit it nothing but storage) or it uses passthrough and the connected unit does all the decoding.
If anyone but Apple releases a head unit, it won't really make it big at retail. The small volumes may be enough for someone like Clarion, Alpine, etc.. to support. At thi time however, I don't even know of any stand-alone head unit with a display that doesn't look/feel/act like it's 15 or 20 years old.
#2 wouldn't be that different from the state of affairs with add-on GPS units. Currently I have yet to see a decent display and user interface for connecting an ipod or other portable DAP in-car.
The non-retail opportunities are obvious - create a better UI for the stuff that comes in the car already. Maybe one day someone will do it like #1
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