Hi guys,

I finally bit the bullet and decided to give Linux a try. Because I didn't want to install it as a secondary OS on my system (yet), I decided to give virtualisation a try first.

So I installed VirtualBox 1.5.4 on my Windows XP Pro setup, and setup up the virtual machine. Then I mounted the Linux ISO images of Suse 10.3 and started the setup. (during which I opted for KDE) That all went very smoothly. I installed the images into onto the Virtual Machine. But after the last reboot, I already ran into my first problem. KDE didn't start. the 'startKDE' command returned the following error (typing here, since I can't seem to do a screencap - I'm still in text mode) :

---------------------------------------------------------

xset: unable to open display ""
xset: unable to open display ""
xsetroot: unable to open display ''
startkde: Starting up...
xprop: unable to open display ''
usage: xprop [-options ...] [[format [dformat]] atom] ...

where options include:
-grammar
-display host:dpy
-id id
-name name
-font name
-remove propname
-set propname value
-root
-len n
-notype
-fs filename
-frame
-f propname format [dformat]
-spy

kdeinit: Aborting. $DISPLAY is not set.
Warning: connect () failed: : No such file or directory
ksmserver cannot connect to X server
ERROR: Coun't attacg to DCOP server!
startkde: Shutting down...
Warning: connect() failed: No such file or directory
Error: Can't contact kdeinit!
startkde: Running shutdown scripts...
xprop: unable to open display ''
usage: xprop [-options ...][format [dformat]] atom]...

where options included:
-grammar
-display host:dpy
-id id
-name name
-font name
-remove propname
-set propname value
-root
-len n
-notype
-fs filename
-frame
-f propname format [dformat]
-spy
startkde: Done.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Anybody any idea how to solve this? (or what is wrong for that matter?) Cheers!

Did you just try and run "startkde" from the command line? It looks like you did, and, if so, that's the wrong way to do it.

I'm not totally sure how much configuration you've done at this point or exactly how Suse deals with starting an X server (which is a prerequisite for running "startkde"), but try running "startx" for now and see what happens.

IMHO what you're doing is going to be complicated. You are asking linux to install and run on top of hardware that's being emulated by a windows application - debugging that doesn't sound much like a newbie task to me

Given your initial requirement I suggest you go for a 'live CD' approach instead. It won't touch your harddisk and will give you the taster you want. I think some liveCDs work with USB thumbs to provided persistence.

Yes, I tried to start it with startkde. Why is that wrong? (I'm not arguing with you, I just want to learn)

I have done absolutely no configuration at all yet. Just installed Suse, and configured for Belgian keyboards and Vesa resolution 1024x768@75Hz. That's it.

Ok, so I've tried startx now, it also doesn't work. This is the error message. (is there any way I can cut and past this? - I now have to type everything which is pretty annoying)
---------------------------------------------------------------
xauth: creating new authority file /home/archeon/.serverauth.3511

X Window System Version 7.2.0.
Release date: Sat Sep 22 22:10:58 UTC 2007
X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0, RElease 7.2.
Build Operating System: openSUSE SUSE LINUX
Current Operating System: Linux linux-103 2.6.22.5-31-default #1 SMP 2007/09/21 22:29 UTC i686
Build Date: 22 September 2007
Module Loader present
markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
(++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
(WW) Warning, (EE) Errorn (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
(==) Log File: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Fri Jan 11 19:17 2008
(==) Using config file: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf"
(EE) FBDEV(0): FBIOPUT_VSCREENINFO succeeded but modified mode
(EE) FBDEV(0): mode initialisation failed

Fatal server error:
Addscreen/ScreenInint failed for driver 0

giving up.
xinit: Connection reset by peer (errno 104): unable to connect to X server
xinit: No such process (errno 3) Server error.

--------------------------------------------------------------

That's it. Does that help?

I also thought about going the live CD route, but that would give me only a taster, as you say. It would not learn me how to install programs, configure the desktop and other tasks which require a write option. Thanks for the suggestion though...

Under Unix, the graphical environment system is "X-Windows". X-Windows provides a very, very, basic environment. Basically, just the ability to have windows appear, not even the ability to move them around. You have to run an additional piece of software on top of X-Windows to provide an actual user interface. There are many different ones of these, KDE being one. By running "startkde" directly, you're trying to get it to provide a GUI on top of an X-Windows instance that doesn't exist. Usually, startkde is run automatically, not by hand.

At this point, it sounds like you've missed some configuration of your system. Chances are that it will start up in a GUI environment when you configure it properly. Unfortunately, I'm not immediately familiar enough with Suse to tell you how to do that.

Generally, the emulators work just fine. I haven't had a problem with one in many years. That said, I don't have any experience with VirtualBox.

Ah, ok, understood. That indeed sounds logical. So it seems that even my x-windows system is not installed correctly. Strange. I cannot remember that I was give the choice to install this or not. I just left every option at the default (with the exception of the keyboard), but even then I do not believe option not to install x-windows was there.

Thanks for trying though. Maybe somebody else will come up with an idea.

VMware's Server, which can be hosted on Windows or Linux is available for free http://www.vmware.com/download/server/ - though you do have to register to get a free serial number. I am suggesting it as you might find their forums helpful in debugging problems you have.

It's been installed, as the programs are there. It's just not been configured. It has to be told what kind of video card and monitor you have. If I'm reading the errors properly, it looks like there's just no configuration at all.

Was the installation in a GUI or just text?

The installation was done via Suse's standard installation GUI. I wouldn't even know how to begin doing this in text mode.

I agree, the problem is not with VirtualBox, but with the configuration itself.

Hm. Okay. So it obviously understands the video card's graphical modes at some level. Let's try reconfiguring X the standard way: try running "xorgcfg". If that doesn't work, try "xorgconfig". Both will create a configuration file. The output should tell you where this file is saved. Assuming one of them seems to work properly, then try to run "X -config <configfile>". You should see a screen with a black and white texture and a big black X-shaped cursor. If so, everything is configured properly. Exit by pressing Ctrl-Alt-Backspace. Then try startx again.

Ok, I had to do this as root, but that was no problem.
xorgcfg worked. It immediately started up some graphical interface. This is what it shows:


Is that ok?

Edit: wasn't it possible to directly upload images to this forum in the past?

Startx still doesn't work though...

Whoops. I forgot the "Then copy that configuration file to the default filename, '/etc/X11/xorg.conf' in your case" step. Then try startx again.

Gag. Please do the Linux community a nice service by not even bothering to try and debug this setup.

Instead, pull down a Ubuntu ISO image and boot from that (inside your PC emulator or whatever you called it).

It should boot up to a full GUI, with no questions asked.
If that works, then just click on the "Install" icon from the desktop that it presents you with.

Linux doesn't have to be almost as difficult to install as Windows, but some vendors seem to go out of their way to make it so.

Cheers

I like how your hatred seeps out a little bit every so often. :P

Windows is actually quite easy to install. In fact, for my latest install I didn't even have to do anything. I just put the disc in and went to dinner. When I came back it was done.

I'm sure some people have run into problems installing Windows, but I haven't.

Quite. I have used Windows and Linux for years, the Linux distros have only just caught up with easy of installation for the average user. Even now if you have the wrong Wifi card the final step of getting that working on Linux can be a real struggle for even an experienced Linux user.

Erm. I wanted to use Suse and not Ubuntu after you saying it was a good choice, since Suse is 'the' KDE distro and Ubuntu uses Gnome. Is this the wrong choice now after all?

Also VirtualBox is virtualisation software that even comes standard with most Linux distros these days, just like Xen. That was the reason I chose to use it.


The same happened with Suse. I also had absolutely no problems installing it. The installation GUI booted up just fine and during the installation I only had to select the type of keyboard I was using (in my case Belgian azerty), all the rest was ok. It was only after the installation had finished that Suse refused to boot into KDE.



Agreed. As said, installation wasn't difficult. At all. It's only that it didn't work in the end, after the installation was done. I might give Ubuntu a try after all, but I'm a bit reluctant since I've already bought several Suse manuals and I'd like to use those for one, and secondly because I can't download the Ubuntu distro with the download ratio I have left for this month, after having downloaded Suse first. (yes, in Belgium we still have download ratios per month, don't ask...)

Maybe this was due to VirtualBox after all, and I should give Xen or Quemu a try instead...

Well, it was definitely worth trying, but Suse/Redhat just don't get it yet when it comes to making things usable. So since Suse failed, the best bet is to try Ubuntu. Which is spelt with a leading K if you want the KDE version by default rather than Gnome. So Kubuntu, then.



That, is where they differ. (K)Ubuntu use *themselves* for the live installer, rather than a special "installation distro" that isn't 100% the same as the one they're actually installing for use later. That's a huge reason for the popularity of (K)Ubunutu nowadays -- if the install CD boots, then you *really *are* *running* the final distro, so one can then click on the "install" icon with confidence.

Of course, it still has it's quirks on some machines.


That's a possibility. But rather than fuss with more alpha-quality software (Xen, Quemu, ..), I'd go the other way with a free professional product: the free version of VMware "Server". Their installer sucks, but the code itself is amazing!

Cheers

Ok, so it looks this really is the best option then, especially for newbies. Would it be best to immediately install Kubuntu, or would installingt the regular Ubuntu distro, and after that running the apt-get install kubuntu-desktop command be a better option? (or is this exactly the same in the end?)


Ah, ok, understood.

Thanks for the info, and I'll let you know how I get on. (even if I'll probably have to wait a couple of more weeks to be able to download it due to the DL ratios. Or maybe I can go up to my parents' house and do the downloading there, that's another option)

Now there's a rather sage question!

If you want any of the GNOME stuff, then I have found it better to first install Ubuntu, and then do the "apt-get install kubuntu-desktop" to get the KDE desktop afterwards.

I have had unexpected difficulties in the past when trying it the other way round, even though it is supposed to work either way.

On my own systems, I very much prefer KDE. But the Ubuntu GNOME desktop is quite a bit more polished, simply because Kubuntu has *one* developer, versus a much larger team devoted to Ubuntu, and many outside teams working on GNOME itself. Power of numbers.

Myself, I do first install Ubuntu, and then add the KDE stuff afterwards, as discussed above. So I can try out the Ubuntu stuff. Really, I might even be tempted to *use* Ubuntu, if their terminal window program wasn't so lame (KDE's Konsole is so much nicer in every way, and I live in terminal windows when working).

Cheers

Very useful info, thanks Mark! Just one final question, it might be a supid one, so be warned.

Is there a way to install *both* desktop environments, and then switch easily between then? Like booting into text modus, and then type 'startkde' for the KDE environment, and 'startgnome' for the GNOME environment? (I'm just saying something)

That way I could easily try them both out, and see which one I like best. (even though the final idea is to also learn the console commands and learn what makes a Linux system tick... I really would like to be able to control my PC again like I did in the good old days of DOS. Eventhough I know Linux is not comparable to DOS, but you get my point. )

In the Redhat/Fedora world there is a tool called "switchdesk" that can be run at the command line a la "switchdesk kde". I would be surprised if something similar or identical didn't exist in SUSE. Also, if inittab is set to runlevel 5 then your GUI login may allow you to select the environment (KDE, Gnome, others) before you supply id/passord to log in.

Anyhow, I think most distros will let you install *both* major desktop environments and then switch/choose.

I have finally decided that KDE is the one for me, but there are particular tools that have Gnome dependencies (ethereal/wireshark comes to mind) so for certain machines I wind up installing both.

In cases where video drivers and such are questionable, I simply set runlevel to 3 in /etc/inittab and run X manually with startx. Just in case video/xorg gets completely hosed up.

Yes, just do what we've already been discussing: install one from CD, and then "apt-get install" the other one.

At the login screen (gdm or kdm), there's a little submenu you can pull up if you look closely, and that little menu lets you select the "session type". KDE, GNOME, or any other desktop you've installed (Enlightenment, XFCE, ...).

And once "logged in" and running one of the desktops, there's usually a menu item (main program menu) to "Start New Session", which lets you have *both* desktops active at the same time.

With two desktop sessions up at once, you switch between them using Ctrl-Alt-F7 and Ctrl-Alt-F8. Quite cool.

Cheeers

Aha! Very cool! Thanks Mark!
(you too Jim!)

I suppose you could just not install a windowing system, then.

I mean, really -- I can work just as effectively without a windowing system, as I can with it.

Actually, come to think of it, I'd probably be *more* efficient, since I wouldn't have any functionality for watching YouTube videos.

Very true Canuck. But I wouldn't take it *that* far.

Ok, I've downloaded Ubuntu and am now typing this message from within FireFox running on Ubuntu 7.10. Installation was truly very smooth, and VirtualBox works excellent. (what I find incredibly cool, is that VirtualBox also enables the use of the personalised buttons on my Logitech MX1000 mouse. No reconfiguring, it works exactly the same as in Windows!)

The testing/getting used to can begin!

Thanks for all your help all!

Maybe you could use mplayer with aalib.