"Inspired" by Mark's post about his low wattage server and the fact that my gateway/mail/web-server died a week ago (don't know if it is hardware or software problem since I haven't had the chance to check it yet), I figured I'd build a mini-ITX machine with a couple of laptop drives in it to use as my firewall, mail and web server. I checked a netshop in Norway and they had a few boards, but since the internet is dog slow here at work, I thought I'd ask here for advice where several people have experience with various mini-ITX boards already...

Is SATA interface for 3.5" and 2.5" the same or would I need some kind of adapter like with IDE drives?

The machine will be running Linux (Clarkconnect firewall-distro), Xmail mail-server with ClamAV anti-virus scanning, Apache, Perl, php and MySQL for a content management system under Apache. It will be running basically headless, but connected to a KVM switch. Since it would act as a firewall, I would need two network cards, but I guess I can use a USB-dongle for the internet side.

The various boards I found are:
Gigabyte GA-GC230D, Intel® Atom™1.6GHz, Mini-ITX, I945GC, DDR2, LAN, PCI, SATA (no other info yet, not available until July 1st)
VIA EPIA-EN12000EG,EDEN V4/1200Mhz,SATA, Mini-ITX, DDR2-533, Fanless,LAN,Firewire (max 1GB RAM)
VIA EPIA-CN13000G, C7/1300Mhz, Mini-ITX, DDR2-533, SATA, VGA, LYD, LAN (max 1GB RAM)
VIA EPIA-EX15000G, C7/1500Mhz, Mini-ITX, CX700M2,DDR2,VGA,DVI,LAN,Tv-Out,Firewire (max 1GB RAM)
VIA EPIA-LT15000AG, C7/1500Mhz, Mini-ITX ,CX700, DDR2, VGA, LYD, LAN, COM (max 1GB RAM)
VIA EPIA-SN18000G, C7/1800Mhz, Mini-ITX DDR2, VGA, LYD, SATAII, PCI-Ex16 (max 4GB RAM, available end of next week)

So, does anybody have a suggestion as to which board I should get?

Tia,
Stig

I'd go for the Atom. It is quite a bit more powerful than the current VIA C7s.

There are other manufacturers of Intel Atom boards. Intel make some as well.

What is LYD?

Maybe it's supposed to be LVD?

Oops, didn't notice that... Lyd = sound

May be I need to look some other places also, not just in Norway... Seems like the ITX cases are also quite big.

Stig

If you don't mind it being a 1GHz C7 then the VIA Pico-ITX boards would work and they're pretty small. VIA sell a kit called the ARTiGO.

I cannot find my old postings/photos of my own mini-ITX server, but I did find this thread which has some notes about PSUs for them and the like.

More in a minute or three..

My own mini-ITX server acts as our xDSL gateway (PPPoE client), runs apache2 (web), smtpd (incoming email), spam filtering, imap/pop3 (for email clients), cupsd (print server), NFS/Samba fileservers, vpn/ssh (for remote access), manages our backyard kitty-cam, records/reencodes scheduled CBC radio shows off the web, acts as our complete SPI firewall (with custom enhancements), holds/serves my entire online photo archives, and half a dozen other minor services that I've forgotten about.

Needless to say it uses (Debian) Linux for the task, which enables it to just work fine on low-power hardware. The motherboard is a VIA EPIA-CL6000E, chosen because it is totally fanless/silent and has *two* onboard 10/100 ethernet ports, plus a plethora of other built-ins including USB2, VGA, PS2 KB/Mouse, sound, parallel port, and a gazillion serial ports.

I've equipped it with 512MB of SDRAM, which is plenty. It could handle a full GB, but then it would consume more power for no good reason.

Fanless is *very* nice, so I paired it with a snap-on PSU designed for it (also fanless), which is fed from a +12V power brick (no fan there, either). One big (for the day) notebook drive on the inside, and voila -- a nice 24/7 micro-server.

It has been rebooted maybe 5 times in the past 3-4(?) years since installation: basically only when I needed to rearrange the power cords, or wanted to try a newer Linux kernel on it. It has already outlived one UPS, and watched silently as other systems came and went.

It has one now-open PCI slot, that used to house a third ethernet port for a DMZ for an old wireless AP we once had.


The interface/connectors are 100% identical -- no issues there.


That's not a heavy load by any stretch, so go for whatever system you can get that is fanless (silent!), assuming you are pairing it with notebook drives. And look for a motherboard that has dual-onboard ethernet, which will save you a couple of watts of power.

Cheers

I think I'll go for something a bit more powerful when I'm building something now. The machine is running dual 1GHz on the infamous Abit VP6 motherboard now (well, should have been running... ). Looked at the T7 from Tranquilpc that you linked to, but they will use 2-3 weeks for sending it.

Stig

The thing about "more powerful", is that it will use more power. 600Mhz is plenty of ooomph for a light server such as this, and can be done totally silent.

Modern CPUs can probably do 1GHz fanless, but above that it's just a waste of valuable energy much of the time.

Cheers

Oh, and it lives in a cookie tin:

I would probably go with a VIA EPIA SN10000EG (1GHz fanless) mini-ITX board today.

It has both PATA(IDE) and SATA interfaces, dual onboard LAN, an a PCIe slot for expansion.

Edit: Here's another link for it, with price and good photos.

Cheers

Thanks, Mark.

Looks like the fanless boards they have at the netshop are only up to 1GHz, and the only one with two NICs is 800MHz. This machine will be in my basement, so it doesn't have to be totally noiseless, so maybe futureproof it some by choosing around 1500MHz processor would be better?

Stig

Thanks again, Mark.

I found this also on the netshop, but there were no info other than it contained LAN.

Hmm, maybe I should listen to the resident Linux expert and order this card...?

I'm just a big fan of no fans!

• totally silent, so it can live upstairs in my office, and share a UPS with the DSL modem and our low-power (~4-watts) 24-port network switch.
• fanless means it's not wasting as much power as systems with fans.
• no fan to fail and kill the system later.

Cheers

There might be better VIA alternatives than the Atom already...
(see here for the official press release, including a table with the available speeds)

I've ordered the board Mark linked to, along with a stick of RAM and a couple of harddrives, so hopefully the package arrives about the same time I get home. It won't be completely noiseless as I will be running it with a regular, although lownoise, PSU. At least for now. I'm quite impulsive as long as I've had the time to think thorougly through something...

Stig

If you eventually upgrade to a silent PSU, I highly recommend the PicoPSU ones, in conjunction with a fanless +12VDC power brick that plugs into the wall.

cheers

I've updated my post above with a better link for this board,
with lots of good photos showing the heatsinks, connectors, etc..

-ml

I've got a big ugly full tower here running 24/7 that I should really get rid of. It ran MythTV (taken over by Sky+), Asterisk (taken over by cheap mobile phones) and a bunch of other fairly redundant stuff.

Thinking about a fanless Epia SN, 8GB Compactflash, Chenbro E34069 (fanless PSU), DVDRW, 1TB Drive (for now), and 2GB RAM. Comes to 550... which is a lot for what is an upgrade of a machine that does work at the moment. Wish I had something smaller and neater like this to start with!

I've seen those and they seem nice. Problem is to get them for a reasonable price here. I found the picoPSU-120W and a 12V 5A brick for ~170 USD (incl VAT) in a Norwegian netshop, but I don't know if the power brick would be big enough. I guess it will. I haven't been able to find any power figures for the mainboard. It would only be the mainboard with a couple of 2.5" drives and possibly a couple of USB devices.

Edit: Checked the status and they were out of stock. Bummer. They did have another kit, rated for 60W, with a brick and a bigger PCB that would need to be mounted inside a case, and this kit was ~80 USD. Looks like it might be a M1-ATX PSU.

Stig

Mmm.. well, the PicoPSU is normally about $50 by itself, and a suitable +12V brick should be fairly cheap. 60W should be enough: figure 30-35W max for the motherboard with CPU running flat out, and then (overkill) 5W per drive.

So a 60W brick should do the job. www.mini-box.com sells the PicoPSU-120 with a 60W brick together for USD$55 (total!). Or you could save a further $5 by getting the same brick with a lower-rated PicoPSU-90 for $50 from them.

They do ship internationally, though the cost may be excessive since they're US-based, and many places in the US don't seem to offer AirMail as a shipping method. Quite odd, that.

EDIT: Yup, they fall into that category: $118.25 for the overkill of UPS Worldwide Express to Norway.

Or you could have one of us pick it up and bring it along to the 10th Birthday party for you.

Cheers

Perhaps somebody in the US (I'm in Canada) might offer to acquire one, and then just airmail it your way. The PicoPSU by itself will actually fit in a small padded envelope, and could be sent letter mail.

But the brick would require Small Packet Airmail, costing perhaps $20 or so to ship.

Cheers

I'm in a very similar position, I've got a 4U industrial rackmount box humming away in the study which used to do everything. Now it's relegated to MythTV and mail duties, the mail I'm probably going to knock on the head and move to Gmail. It's now got to the point where I don't think I need anything on permanently. Once the Freesat HD DVR comes out I'll probably turn it off. Then I've got think about what I'm going to do with 8 fixed IP addresses!

$20 for shipping wouldn't be so bad, $118 would...

Seems like it's more common with FedEX, UPS and the like instead of USPS. One time when I bought something on ebay, they would have to drive for an hour to use USPS...

Unfortunately I can't go to the Empeg meet. I made a suggestion for the work schedule for this year, making sure I would be able to attend, but then the office changed it so I've just started at work again when the meet is.

If someone that can accept PayPal paid with creditcard, would be willing to buy the picoPSU-120 and the 60W brick and send it to me, I'd appreciate it.

Stig

Mmm.. I just checked for Canadian sources, and there are a couple of possibilities:

I can get the PicoPSU-120 + 60W brick for about CDN$55, plus taxes + delivery to me here, for CAD$72.42 total. Small Packet Air to Norway then adds $31.50 to that, for a grand total of about CDN$104.

Seems a shame that shipping (twice) doubles the total for you.

-ml

I asked about buying Air Mail stamps once, some time ago. The answer was, they weren't available any more, as the only difference between Air Mail and First Class was that Air Mail was loaded on the plane first.

Currently the USPS has a FedEx like next day shipping. With the same price structures.

I do have a cautionary tale about fanless though. I have a fanless 500MHz VIA that acts as my off-site backup server and lives in a friend's apartment.

To start with I didn't have a case fan, just the fanless motherboard a single 3.5 inch drive and the power supply. After having three hard drives die within about a 2.5 year period I took a look at hard drive temperatures.

I found the drive was running at well over 50 degrees C. So I now have two case fans mounted and the latest drive has last two years without complaint.

So don't assume just that your board is fanless that your drives will be happy.

I also have one of those T2 boxes, with a head pipe to make the board fanless, but again I have ended up fitting case fans to get the drive temperatures down.

I've got a T2 box too, although I never had a drive 'die' I had several occasions where I had to turn it off to allow the drives to cool down.

Yeah, I wouldn't really recommend the T2. In fact I've given up on mini-itx altogether since I discovered that a Dell Vostro 200 Slim case machine is actually quieter than my T2, hugely more powerful and can be had for £179 + P&P + tax. My next quiet server will be one of these.

Admittedly it will use more power than a mini-itx, but not much.

The motherboard manual for my VIA board cautioned that proper airflow is a requirement for fanless.

So I have the board in a vertical mount, with lots of case holes above/below the board to allow a chimney effect to circulate fresh air across the heat sinks.

The hard drive is, of course, mounted at the bottom of the case, below all of the heat-generating components. A modern notebook drive only gives off 1-2W of heat, so it will self-cool so long as nothing else interferes.

Cheers

This was a big reason why I used a nice, roomy cookie tin, rather than some pre-built case that crams everything into a tight space with no potential for fanless airflow.

Cheers

Probably at least double the power, I expect.

Even my notebook uses 2X the wattage of my server, as measured at the AC outlet.

Cheers

Unfortunately the sites selling them never seem to mention that. By the way I have never had any problems with CPU temperatures on fanless, just hard drives.

Heh.. for domestic service, first class is a synonym for air mail. The latter term really only has special meaning when shipping to other countries, particularly across oceans.

The difference between surface mail and air mail can be rather significant in that context, both in time and in cost.

Cheers

Assuming it is available. USPS dropped internatilnal surface mail on May 14, 2007.

If you would do that, I'd take you up on that offer. Even at this price, it's slightly less than what I found just the picoPSU for in Norway...

Sending you a PM.

Thanks, Mark!

Stig

I ended up with a Vostro 200 Slim machine, 1.6GHz C2D, 2GB RAM, 250GB Disk, DVDRW new in box for £150 inc. £200+ cheaper than a Mini-ITX SN 1GHz, Chenbro Case, DVDRW and RAM (before hard drives).

As the hardware goes, the case is good quality, and everything is quite smartly laid out inside. There is space for two hard drives which are quick release, one empty (external) 3.25" bay and the 5.25" bay with the DVDRW in it. 2x PCI, 1x PCIeX1 and 1x PCIeX16 all Low Profile only. There are 4x SATA ports inside, no IDE. Ports on the back are all USB so no Serial, no PS/2 and no Firewire. Its half way to being 'Legacy Free' - Dell still find the need to put a floppy connector on the board and no DVI on the back.

The box itself is relatively quiet. Has to be said its not as quiet as my old full tower monster which has 120mm fans and a Thermalright heatsink, but its not bad. Always difficult to describe, but its not amazingly quiet. If you stand the box up, there is a fan at the top near the back and one on the left side (CPU). There is no active cooling in the front for hard drives, but there is space and big vents there so its not too bad. Adding another disk in the 3.5" bay for RAID 5 might be pushing it, but I'll monitor temperatures for a little while and know for sure. The PSU is labelled 250W and only has 3x SATA connectors on short cables in total, so this may need some light hacking for another drive too.

I put in a couple of big Western Digital 'Green Power' hard drives - these are really nice drives, the quietest ones I've ever come across (I'd say they were totally silent) and barely warm after running for a few hours. Pretty outstanding, I'd really recommend them unless you want very high performance.

I wanted to install the OS on a 4GB Compactflash using a SATA-CF adapter which I bought. There is only a 50% chance that this device is detected on boot which makes it pretty useless. When it is detected by the computer it seems to work well. I gave up on this.

Linux isn't totally straightforward. Knoppix will not boot from the SATA DVD drive. Ubuntu Server 8.04 will install without much problem and then hang on boot. Reading around it seems to be a problem with the Vostro and 2.6.24. Reinstalling a minimal install of an earlier version and dist-upgrading (holding back the kernel) is probably the path of least resistance.

Fun and games.

That would explain the difficulty I was having, I assumed my CD was burnt badly.

What bit does it hang on?

The initial kernel load I think.

Which part though?

I've got a HP SFF desktop here and it always hangs during bootup because its PCI implementation is buggered. You need to give it extra options to use an alternate probing mechanism.

I think it dies long before that, in the bootstrap stage. But to be honest I didn't look too careful because I assumed my disk was at fault. I haven't had chance to go back and sort it out because the machine in question is my machine for testing Vista stuff on.

There's been a *lot* of concern about those drives, in that they spin-down automatically *much* too frequently, leading many people to expect premature deaths.

Keep an eye on the head load/unload counts from smartctl -a to see what's happening with your own system. Apparently a proprietary "vendor unique" command/parms is required to disable this stupid default behaviour, and WD provide a DOS(!?) utility to issue the command.

Cheers

One would hope that if they designed the drives to spin up and down a lot, they'd engineer 'em to take the stress...

Y'know, if it were Seagate, I'd laugh at that statement, but for WD, I'd almost trust 'em to do the right thing. Almost.

s/Seagate/Maxtor/

Yeah, them too.

Thanks for the heads up, I will install smartmontools and get it reporting every so often. The home server is only really alive when I'm at home so only really a couple of hours a day at the most, so maybe this behavior is ok for me? They are in RAID and have a 3yr warranty, so I'm not going to return them in a panic... but we'll see how it goes. If/when either of them fail I'll post back here!

I wish my damn SATA-CF adapter worked properly so I could install the OS on there.

Ubuntu 7.10 Gutsy or 8.04 Hardy of any flavour will not boot on the Vostro if the Video Memory setting in the BIOS under Advanced Configuration is set to 1MB. Set it to 8MB and it all works.

Just had to put that out there - this bug wasted many of my hours.

Thought I'd continue this since the new kid on the block is the VIA ARTiGO A2000 'barebones' fileserver. Pico-ITX, 1.5GHz, 1xCF, 2xSATA, Gigabit, External PSU. I like it, tempted to eBay what I have and get one of these instead. Its so shiny!

Sexy.