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#31404 - 22/05/2001 10:56 6.5" woofers - useful?
pim
addict

Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
Now that I've spent a lot of money on my Empeg, an amp (Clarion CPA 4202) and installation costs,
I feel I need to spend some more on speakers, as these are now by far the weakest link in the chain.

My Alfa 156 comes with 6 speakers; 6.5" compo's in the front door, 6.5" fullrange in the rear doors.
Ihave already made an appointment to have the front speakers replaced with a pair of Canton CS 2.16
compo's.

Now I'm considering what to put in the rear doors. As I am reluctant to have any kind of sub in my trunk,
and because there's almost never anyone on the backseat, I was thinking of having just bass
in the rear doors, using 6.5" (16.5 cm) woofers, which usually are labelled as "kick bass".

Examples are Kenwood KFC-W1703 and the Phonocar range of 6.5" woofers.
These speakers are relatively cheap, compared to compo's and coax speakers,
but also are high-quality if I am inclined to believe test magazines like Autohifi and Car & Hifi.

Now I know car-hifi freaks use kick bass speakers to fill the gap in frequency range between front speakers and subs.
Would it be advisable to use them as substitute for subwoofers?
My amp has a builtin variable low-pass filter (50 ~ 200 Hz, -12 dB/oct.).
Is that adequate for these kind of speakers, or am I better off with a passive filter using a higher frequency?
Or would I be better off using the woofer of a compo, and ditch the tweeter?

My installer recommends putting coax speakers in the rear doors, but I thank that's a waste of
(a lot of) money on mediocre sound quality.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Pim (60GB, red)


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#31405 - 22/05/2001 11:12 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31307
Loc: Seattle, WA
Subwoofers are as much about the enclosure as the speaker. If you're installing 6.5" speakers in your doors, you don't get much control over the enclosures in that situation.

I don't think that 6.5" speakers in your doors would be an appropriate substitute for a genuine subwoofer. No matter how good the speakers are, the doors are not going to help them out.

You should look around and see if anyone makes any custom subwoofer enclosures for that Alfa. It's possible that you could get a 10 in there somewhere without impacting your luggage/passenger space. You'd be surprised how crafty they can get with custom enclosures.

___________
Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#31406 - 22/05/2001 17:24 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
xanatos
enthusiast

Registered: 08/03/2001
Posts: 202
Loc: Denver, CO
I have a 2000 Saturn LS2, and it came with a Factory 6.5" Subwoofer that was installed on the rear deck of the car. I was very reluctant to put non OEM looking parts in my car, above and beyond my amps (and I even had issues with those), just because I want my car to remain OEM looking.

JL Audio has a 6.5" Subwoofer Solution that I found absolutely amazing. Great frequency response, and they are VERY conservative on the power handling of the speaker (they say 75watts continueous and I do about 120 without destortion). I replaced the woofer that came with my car with this one, and I'm amazed at how full it makes the audio, and even likes to shake the mirrors. What ended up convincing me on getting it is I read multiple reviews on people using it and finding it a great speaker, and having a lot more power then one would expect out of a 6.5" and even some 8" speakers that are ported. A lot of people also use them as mid-bass speakers in their doors, in complements of the subs they have in their trunk for more full and complete bass, all over their car, not just in the rear.

The model is the JL Audio 6W0, they are a little hard to find on the internet, and a few specialized car audio stores in your town my have them. Below is the link to the JL Audio site for the product.

JL Audio 6W0

Hope this helps!

Damien Heiser

RioCar / empeg 12GB Blue Mark 2a SN: 120001043
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#31407 - 22/05/2001 18:17 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: xanatos]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31307
Loc: Seattle, WA
I have a 2000 Saturn LS2, and it came with a Factory 6.5" Subwoofer that was installed on the rear deck of the car.

Keeping in mind that this particular rear deck was specifically designed to house a subwoofer, and that in this case, the trunk becomes the enclosure. Pim was asking about putting woofers in the doors. I stand by my original statement that doors are not proper enclosures for subwoofers (but are fine for mids and highs).

I guess you could do some custom work on the doors to turn them into suitable enclosures. That would be an interesting project...

___________
Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#31408 - 22/05/2001 18:21 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: tfabris]
xanatos
enthusiast

Registered: 08/03/2001
Posts: 202
Loc: Denver, CO
In reply to:

I stand by my original statement that doors are not proper enclosures for subwoofers (but are fine for mids and highs).




I get what you are saying here, as I also mentioned that many people use them in there door for mid bass speakers. I also miss understood pim, and didn't realize he wanted a total sub solution for his door. So yeah, I agree, a sub in the door, one would prolly not sound very good, due to all of the vibration that could occur, and two, they aren't designed for it.

Sorry ^_^;;

Damien Heiser

RioCar / empeg 12GB Blue Mark 2a SN: 120001043
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#31409 - 22/05/2001 21:52 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
reggie
member

Registered: 24/06/1999
Posts: 118
Loc: Chile
Of man, in my humblest opinion, The Alfa 156 is the sweetest car I've known. Would you mind posting some pics of the empeg sitting in that glorious dash? And which engine is it? I think the 2.0 coupled to the selespeed box is magical.
As for your question, I think Tony is right, no door speaker will be able to emulate a subwoofer. In my opinion, such a great ride totally deserves a subwoofer, even a small one. That JL Audio mentioned, with a very well designed enclosure, would add just the needed kick... And Tony is right about a stealth enclosure, too... regrettably, JL only produces stealthboxes for american market cars, so no stealth box fot the Alfa, but you could do it by youself, or have the guys at your sound shop make it...
Good luck, good car

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[orange] Reggie [/orange] - 030102316 - First EMPEG in Latin America (right? )

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#31410 - 23/05/2001 04:45 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
teemcbee
addict

Registered: 04/02/2000
Posts: 687
Personally I don't think that you can make 6,5" subs play low frequencies powerful.
At least not as powerful as a 10" or 12".
I'd suggest putting a closed box with a 10" or 12" into your trunk/boot. It doesn't take much space (a closed box can be quite small), is easy removable and is very dynamic.
You could then adjust your amp to filter the low-frequencies from the 6,5" speakers and filter the high frequencies from the sub. This will give a high-quality and powerful sound.

A 10"/12" is about $100 and an enclosure for it is about 50$ so this would not be very cost-intensive.

The canton are very good, I have them (well - not the exact same model) installed in my front doors and in my dash. They give a really clear sound.

That's what I'd suggest. Doesn't mean it's the best solution.

TeeMcBee
Got my Mk2! # 080000143
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TeeMcBee
[orange]Mk2, # 080000143, 40+30 GB, Tuner, Peugeot stalk hookup</font color=orange>

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#31411 - 23/05/2001 16:11 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5403
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
I was thinking of having just bass in the rear doors, using 6.5" (16.5 cm) woofers,

Now I'm going to sound all elitist, and everything... I ask forgiveness in advance. :-)

A 6.5" speaker is not a subwoofer, no matter what it says on the box or in the advertising. A subwoofer is a speaker designed to produce strong frequency response in the 20-80Hz range, and a 6.5" speaker isn't going to do it, particularly when it is running free-air inside a door panel.

If you want strong bass (and I am not talking about the "boom-boom-boom" bass you hear coming from that low-rider down the street with the reversed wheels and the blacked out windows) you have to pay the piper -- in this case, the piper wants about one and a half cubic feet of your trunk space in order to place a 10" or 12" subwoofer.

Unfortunately there are no shortcuts to good bass response but with some thought and creativity you can minimize the impact the installation will have on the vehicle itself. Talk to the pro installers -- they have thought about and solved installation problems you didn't even know existed.

tanstaafl.


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#31412 - 30/05/2001 14:30 Alfa 156 [Re: reggie]
pim
addict

Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
The alfa 156 is the sweetest car I've known. Would you mind posting some pics of the empeg sitting in that glorious dash?

Yes, a Mk2 red does look rather nice in an Alfa 156, especially with the red meters that come with the sports package. In fact, this dash made me win the second place (ex aequo) for Best Install at the Second European Empeg Owners Meet last weekend in Amersfoort. This, and the Canton tweeters that fit so nicely into the original tweeter's space.

No picture of the tweeters, but here's one of the dash:



And which engine is it? I think the 2.0 coupled to the selespeed box is magical.

1.8 TS. Unfortunately the 2001 version, which has 4 HP less than the original 144 HP engine.


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#31413 - 30/05/2001 14:32 Re: Alfa 156 [Re: pim]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31307
Loc: Seattle, WA
DAMN that is one sweet install pic.

Rob, snag that one for the Geek site!

___________
Tony Fabris
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#31414 - 30/05/2001 15:12 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
pim
addict

Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
Thanks everyone for all your replies. But maybe I need to rephrase my question. I fully understand that the things I'm trying to do are no replacement for a real sub in the trunk.

But this is a leased company car, so there's a limited amount of tinkering I'm allowed to do.
And I will immediately lose the car if I ever lose my job.
And I also quite often need the all trunk space available.

I already have the Canton speakers in the front door which is a vast improvement (an they install very nicely too).

So, given that subs are out and the only option is to replace factory speakers, what would you put in the rear doors:
1) 6.5" woofers
2) 6.5" full range speakers

A 6.5" speaker is not a subwoofer, no matter what it says on the box or in the advertising.

Well, I never called them subwoofers. I've called them woofers and kick bass speakers.

So yeah, I agree, a sub in the door, one would prolly not sound very good, due to all of the vibration that could occur, and two, they aren't designed for it.

Vibration is definitely one off the things I'm afraid of. But these kick bass speakers are actually designed to put in a door or a doorboard. But they should really be assigned the 80 to 200 Hz frequency range, according to an article in Autohifi magazine (6/2000).

I won't be able to do that, my amp can do low pass and high pass, no bandpass. Passing 0 to 200 Hz would be my only option.

Pim





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#31415 - 30/05/2001 17:53 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
thinfourth2
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 13/04/2001
Posts: 1742
Loc: The land of the pale blue peop...
Sony do a real nice 8" active sub that don't come in that big a box in the xplode range have a look as it would be a piece of piss to remove it and if you are giving up the car just crop off the cables and stuff them under a piece of trim they won't be found.

Other options are i have had a good pair of 6 by 9s that had a real good bass not close to a sub but decent enough.

Don't foget it ain't over till the fat bass sings.

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#31416 - 30/05/2001 19:48 Re: Alfa 156 [Re: pim]
xanatos
enthusiast

Registered: 08/03/2001
Posts: 202
Loc: Denver, CO
I haven't ever heard of Alfa Romeo beforeyou posted that you had one about a week ago... Over the last week I've totally fallen in love with em... The one draw back... I can't find any information on them for the states :( It appears as if they don't sell em here.

Does anyone know if they do sell em here? Or if it would be possible to even get one over here?

Damien Heiser

RioCar / empeg 12GB Blue Mark 2a SN: 120001043

Edited by xanatos on 31/05/01 05:37 AM.

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#31417 - 30/05/2001 21:32 Re: Alfa 156 [Re: xanatos]
reggie
member

Registered: 24/06/1999
Posts: 118
Loc: Chile
According to Car and Driver Mag, the last Alfa to be sold in U.S. was the late Spyder, the one that dated back to the sixties (it appeared on that movie, "The graduate"). Since then, Alfa has not considered returning to the states for many reasons, one of them being that small sports hatchbacks and sedans are not exactly america's best-selling automobiles. It is known, though, that wealthy guys have imported some Spyders (the newer models, which are the most strikingly beautiful convertibles I've seen)
But I may be wrong. Some time ago I heard about Alfa planning a comeback, but since then no news.
On my side (I don't live in the States), I'm considering my next car will be a 147 hatchback with a 2.0 engine and, of course, the Selespeed gearbox, the best gearbox available this side of a Ferrari Modena F1Style. My beloved Golf is getting a little bit outdated, and I like new cars (and I'm sinlge, so I don't need to discuss this kind of acquisitions in a comitee, heheh)

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[orange] Reggie [/orange] - 030102316 - First EMPEG in Latin America (right? )

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#31418 - 30/05/2001 21:48 Re: Alfa 156 [Re: pim]
reggie
member

Registered: 24/06/1999
Posts: 118
Loc: Chile
Thank you very much. Indeed it's a wonderful look. It's almost like if the Empeg is an OEM system. Is there space in the steering column for a Sony control stick?
That 1.8 L sounds like a very well balanced choice. And it trails the 2.0 by just 15 hp, not much noticeable, probably. I will check if it's available for the 147 (and if I can get the Selespeed with that one).
Oh God that dash... but I even like more the wood trim that A friend's 156 has.

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[orange] Reggie [/orange] - 030102316 - First EMPEG in Latin America (right? )

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#31419 - 31/05/2001 09:27 Sony Stick controller for Alfa 156 [Re: reggie]
pim
addict

Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
Is there space in the steering column for a Sony control stick?

Yes, there's ample space on the steering column. But I'm not sure whether it will come off without visible damage.

Like I said, this is a leased company car, so I would be in trouble if I'd need to return the car.

Has anyone ever removed this Sony controller and seen what it looks like?
The tuner module will be there soon now, so I will need to make a choice whether to combine the install with that of said controller.




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#31420 - 31/05/2001 10:15 Re: Sony Stick controller for Alfa 156 [Re: pim]
reggie
member

Registered: 24/06/1999
Posts: 118
Loc: Chile
Mmmh the control stick (the one I own) comes with a mounting. This mounting needs to be screwed to the steering column, possibilities ranging from one to three screws. And it also has a kind of double-sided adhesive, one of those that need warmnig with, say, a hair dryer, like many sound deadening products. I'm not sure how easily this adhesive will come off, but I'm sure those three holes will be more than what the lease inspector is going to accept.

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[orange] Reggie [/orange] - 030102316 - First EMPEG in Latin America (right? )

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#31421 - 20/06/2001 11:00 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
pim
addict

Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
OK, I went ahead and ordered the Phonocar 6.5" woofers. Just later, all your suggestions to mount a sub in a case in the trunk made me doubt. I tried to ask my installer whether I could change the woofers for a real sub. Obviously, he was not very happy about that and persuaded me to stick with my original choice.

And I don't regret it! The Phonocar woofers produce an astounding deep and natural bass. My installer did a real good job on the doors; the mounting hole had to be expanded and made more rigid, and he put a thick layer of some dampening material on the inside of the doors. Result: no vibration of the door at all.

My amp is now powering the front speakers (the Canton compo) at full range; the phonocar are powered lowpass (0-100 Hz). The empeg equalizer is set to almost flat.

I'm really pleased with the end result. If I would have gotten these speakers two weeks earlier, I bet I would have won the Best Sound competition at the Amersfoort meet, in spite of most other cars having real subs.

Of course this is not a boom-car. If you like to hear dance music at ultra-high volume then this is not your setup. Otherwise I can recommend it.

Another downside is that the installation was not very simple; in the end I paid more for the install than for the speakers.

Pim



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#31422 - 23/06/2001 21:24 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
I'm really pleased with the end result

And that's what counts most. Within your constraints, i think you've done pretty well!



Murray 06000047
I don't think, therefore I am not.
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#31423 - 25/06/2001 17:04 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
reggie
member

Registered: 24/06/1999
Posts: 118
Loc: Chile
Another downside is that the installation was not very simple; in the end I paid more for the install than for the speakers

- That is more common than you might think when it comes to real fine installs. That is, unless you buy some mobile tube amplifier or anything else in the "nonsense" price range.

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[orange] Reggie [/orange] - 030102316 - First EMPEG in Latin America (right? )

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#31424 - 26/06/2001 01:40 Re: 6.5" woofers - useful? [Re: pim]
Wire
member

Registered: 11/09/2000
Posts: 143
Loc: Jylland, Denmark
Hi,

Just a quick note, on the Audi A4 I brought to the Amersfoort meet.

I had 1.5" tweeters and 5" midtone speakers in the front doors, and 6.5" bass/midtone speakers in the rear doors. The 12" sub in the trunk adds to the bass, but the rear speakers really give you a nice sounding system, even without a subwoofer.

If you want to play LOUD you'd probably want to get a sub as well.


Lars
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