#327138 - 28/10/2009 11:14
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Okay, that's not bad then. If the write speed is good enough (ought to be), then go for it.
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#327177 - 29/10/2009 01:07
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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I've found time just now to read through the Anandtech article. Excellent, even better than usual for that dude. Based on that, I'd get the Kingston for my PVR in the blink of an eye. Except it already has a similarly quick 32GB SSD for boot and OS, and with TRIM support too.  Oh, and this warrants repeating: "When I said, "Best.. Upgrade.. Ever..", I really meant it. This drive just smokes anything (SSD or mechanical) that I've ever played with before."If your notebook doesn't have an SSD in it already.. then why not?? Cheers
Edited by mlord (29/10/2009 01:10)
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#327179 - 29/10/2009 01:53
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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If your notebook doesn't have an SSD in it already.. then why not?? Cuz I have a baby and my hobbies are pulling me all over the place already.  I did plan to put an SSD in place of the optical drive in my MBP and use it as the boot drive. It'll wait until something super nice comes along at a super nice price though. I'm not really missing it right now.
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#327185 - 29/10/2009 05:40
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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If your notebook doesn't have an SSD in it already.. then why not?? Because it would cost as much as the netbook, thus doubling the price?
_________________________
-- roger
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#327186 - 29/10/2009 05:55
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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I'd like to see the drives mature a bit more. The makers seem to still be on the steep part of the learning curve.
_________________________
Glenn
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#327208 - 30/10/2009 12:27
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: Roger]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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If your notebook doesn't have an SSD in it already.. then why not?? Because it would cost as much as the netbook, thus doubling the price? Yeah, I'd love one in my Mac laptop, but I'd have to spend quite a lot of money to replace the (full) 250GB spinning disk that's in there. I suppose I could delete off a bunch of the media I have on there and live with a smaller drive...
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#327209 - 30/10/2009 13:02
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Yeah, I'd love one in my Mac laptop, but I'd have to spend quite a lot of money to replace the (full) 250GB spinning disk that's in there. You could remove the optical drive and put in an adapter to hold and connect your current HDD in its place. Or simply install the SSD to that location and choose it as the boot disk. I'm pretty sure that with a little bit of tinkering you could use one of the cheaper drive adapters/caddies normally intended for Thinkpads instead of the Mac-specific one being sold for >$100.
Edited by hybrid8 (30/10/2009 13:03)
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#330354 - 23/02/2010 10:29
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Last time I tried to wipe this SSD I couldn't wait and restored a partimage NTFS partition. Now, this needs to be done again, so now I can again try to wipe the SSD.
The only way to un-freeze a drive is a power cycle. So just hot unplug it from the laptop, and plug it directly back in again within a few seconds. Linux won't care, and the drive will then be unfrozen.
Doing that made "hdparm --security-set-pass NULL /dev/sdX" succeed. However, "hdparm --security-erase NULL /dev/sdX" still fails with "ERASE_PREPARE: Input/output error". strace shows an lseek() failure: lseek(4, 0, SEEK_CUR) = -1 ESPIPE (Illegal seek) Using hdparm 9.27 on Fedora kernel-2.6.31.12-174.2.3.fc12.x86_64 Pim
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#330413 - 23/02/2010 22:20
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Odds are that your computer's BIOS is "freezing" the security features of the drive, to prevent viruses/trojans from using those features to lock you out of your own data.
To erase the drive, it has to be "unfrozen" first. Since the BIOS re-freezes it at every boot, that could be a problem.
But it isn't. Just boot up Linux (cdrom, whatever), and then unplug/replug the power for the SSD. It is now un-frozen, and can be erased. Note that the first command to set the passwd is not needed.
hdparm --security-erase NULL /dev/sdX
I do this quite frequently around here, even with notebook computers.
Edit: If it's still failing, use an Ubuntu CD rather than a nasty Fedora one. Fedora/Redhat is often crippled for useful stuff like this.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (23/02/2010 22:23)
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#330439 - 24/02/2010 15:55
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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The drive indeed comes up as frozen, but this is cleared by hot power cycling the drive.
Still, the security erase fails
Tried again use a live session from a Karmic desktop i386 CD. Same result.
Switched to AHCI mode. Same result.
hdparm -I says "2 min for SECURITY ERASE UNIT".
What does that mean?
Thanks,
Pim
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#330440 - 24/02/2010 15:57
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Oh, and after a succesful security erase, would the drive appear to have been zeroed?
Thanks,
Pim
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#330446 - 24/02/2010 16:21
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Oh, and after a succesful security erase, would the drive appear to have been zeroed? Yes, that's what normally is observed.
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#330447 - 24/02/2010 16:23
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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hdparm -I says "2 min for SECURITY ERASE UNIT".
What does that mean? Nothing useful. The drive simply says that it could take up to two minutes to complete. The hdparm command waits for it, though, so when the command finishes, so has the operation (for better or worse). Mechanical drives often report _hours_ for that number, so with those it is useful, in that it tells you you have time to skip over to the rink for a game of shinny while waiting. Cheers
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#330448 - 24/02/2010 16:28
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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The drive indeed comes up as frozen, but this is cleared by hot power cycling the drive. Ahh.. have you verified that, by re-running hdparm -I after the unplug/replug? If it is not actually cleared, then I know what's going on. The ACPI BIOS is re-freezing the drive after hotplug. Bad. But actually, it's not the BIOS, but rather the ACPI interpreter in the kernel. Which can be disabled! The kernel parameter (kernel boot line in GRUB) for this is: libata_noacpi=1If you can figure out how to enter that parameter at the boot prompt from your LiveCD, then it will probably let things work as they should. An even more drastic way to do this would be to also disable ACPI globally at boot: libata_noacpi=1 acpi=off-ml
Edited by mlord (24/02/2010 16:30)
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#330449 - 24/02/2010 16:31
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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The only other possibility, is that your drive already has a (non NULL) password set on it. Without that password, you cannot erase the drive.
Edit: I suppose perhaps only the "master" password could be getting in the way. So you could retry the erase command with a "user" password, though I don't know if it would make any difference:
hdparm --user-master u --security-set-pass NULL /dev/sdX
hdparm --user-master u --security-erase NULL /dev/sdX
-ml
Edited by mlord (24/02/2010 16:33)
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#330451 - 24/02/2010 16:37
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Mmm.. rather than having me to continue to guess at the state of your drive, why don't you perhaps post some useful info here, after hot unplug/replug of the drive?
hdparm -I /dev/sdX
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#330476 - 25/02/2010 10:58
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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hdparm --user-master u --security-set-pass NULL /dev/sdX
hdparm --user-master u --security-erase NULL /dev/sdX
That did it! Thanks. The command returned within a couple of seconds. The data did not seem to disappear, though, not even after two minutes. I used "fdisk -l" to test for data. But after a power cycle, the data indeed was gone. Thanks, Pim
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#330477 - 25/02/2010 11:08
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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I did post snippets of hdparm -I output but it seems I had left out the interesting parts... Here's a complete hdparm -I, after the erase, after a power cycle, drive was in the bay while booting:
/dev/sdb:
ATA device, with non-removable media
Model Number: INTEL SSDSA2MH160G1GC
Serial Number: CVEM9200008X160PGN
Firmware Revision: 045C8820
Transport: Serial, ATA8-AST, SATA 1.0a, SATA II Extensions, SATA Rev 2.5, SATA Rev 2.6
Standards:
Used: ATA/ATAPI-7 T13 1532D revision 1
Supported: 7 6 5 4
Configuration:
Logical max current
cylinders 16383 16383
heads 16 16
sectors/track 63 63
--
CHS current addressable sectors: 16514064
LBA user addressable sectors: 268435455
LBA48 user addressable sectors: 312581808
Logical Sector size: 512 bytes
Physical Sector size: 512 bytes
device size with M = 1024*1024: 152627 MBytes
device size with M = 1000*1000: 160041 MBytes (160 GB)
cache/buffer size = unknown
Nominal Media Rotation Rate: Solid State Device
Capabilities:
LBA, IORDY(can be disabled)
Queue depth: 31
Standby timer values: spec'd by Standard, no device specific minimum
R/W multiple sector transfer: Max = 16 Current = 16
DMA: mdma0 mdma1 mdma2 udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6
Cycle time: min=120ns recommended=120ns
PIO: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
Cycle time: no flow control=120ns IORDY flow control=120ns
Commands/features:
Enabled Supported:
* SMART feature set
Security Mode feature set
* Power Management feature set
* Write cache
* Look-ahead
* Host Protected Area feature set
* WRITE_BUFFER command
* READ_BUFFER command
* NOP cmd
* DOWNLOAD_MICROCODE
* 48-bit Address feature set
* Device Configuration Overlay feature set
* Mandatory FLUSH_CACHE
* FLUSH_CACHE_EXT
* SMART error logging
* SMART self-test
* General Purpose Logging feature set
* 64-bit World wide name
* IDLE_IMMEDIATE with UNLOAD
* WRITE_UNCORRECTABLE_EXT command
* {READ,WRITE}_DMA_EXT_GPL commands
* Segmented DOWNLOAD_MICROCODE
* Gen1 signaling speed (1.5Gb/s)
* Gen2 signaling speed (3.0Gb/s)
* Native Command Queueing (NCQ)
Device-initiated interface power management
* Software settings preservation
Security:
Master password revision code = 65297
supported
not enabled
not locked
frozen
not expired: security count
supported: enhanced erase
2min for SECURITY ERASE UNIT. 2min for ENHANCED SECURITY ERASE UNIT.
Logical Unit WWN Device Identifier: 5001517958d6b068
NAA : 5
IEEE OUI : 001517
Unique ID : 958d6b068
Now, after hot unplugging and replugging the drive:
/dev/sdb:
ATA device, with non-removable media
Model Number: INTEL SSDSA2MH160G1GC
Serial Number: CVEM9200008X160PGN
Firmware Revision: 045C8820
Transport: Serial, ATA8-AST, SATA 1.0a, SATA II Extensions, SATA Rev 2.5, SATA Rev 2.6
Standards:
Used: ATA/ATAPI-7 T13 1532D revision 1
Supported: 7 6 5 4
Configuration:
Logical max current
cylinders 16383 16383
heads 16 16
sectors/track 63 63
--
CHS current addressable sectors: 16514064
LBA user addressable sectors: 268435455
LBA48 user addressable sectors: 312581808
Logical Sector size: 512 bytes
Physical Sector size: 512 bytes
device size with M = 1024*1024: 152627 MBytes
device size with M = 1000*1000: 160041 MBytes (160 GB)
cache/buffer size = unknown
Nominal Media Rotation Rate: Solid State Device
Capabilities:
LBA, IORDY(can be disabled)
Queue depth: 31
Standby timer values: spec'd by Standard, no device specific minimum
R/W multiple sector transfer: Max = 16 Current = 1
DMA: mdma0 mdma1 mdma2 udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6
Cycle time: min=120ns recommended=120ns
PIO: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
Cycle time: no flow control=120ns IORDY flow control=120ns
Commands/features:
Enabled Supported:
* SMART feature set
Security Mode feature set
* Power Management feature set
* Write cache
* Look-ahead
* Host Protected Area feature set
* WRITE_BUFFER command
* READ_BUFFER command
* NOP cmd
* DOWNLOAD_MICROCODE
* 48-bit Address feature set
* Device Configuration Overlay feature set
* Mandatory FLUSH_CACHE
* FLUSH_CACHE_EXT
* SMART error logging
* SMART self-test
* General Purpose Logging feature set
* 64-bit World wide name
* IDLE_IMMEDIATE with UNLOAD
* WRITE_UNCORRECTABLE_EXT command
* {READ,WRITE}_DMA_EXT_GPL commands
* Segmented DOWNLOAD_MICROCODE
* Gen1 signaling speed (1.5Gb/s)
* Gen2 signaling speed (3.0Gb/s)
* Native Command Queueing (NCQ)
Device-initiated interface power management
* Software settings preservation
Security:
Master password revision code = 65297
supported
not enabled
not locked
not frozen
not expired: security count
supported: enhanced erase
2min for SECURITY ERASE UNIT. 2min for ENHANCED SECURITY ERASE UNIT.
Logical Unit WWN Device Identifier: 5001517958d6b068
NAA : 5
IEEE OUI : 001517
Unique ID : 958d6b068
Checksum: correct
Thanks, Pim
Edited by pim (25/02/2010 11:28)
Edit Reason: correcting grammar
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#330478 - 25/02/2010 11:26
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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For the record, it may be worth to note that the output of my last two postings was produced on the laptop that actually uses the drive. This laptop was booted to Fedora 11, using hdparm v9.16 and kernel kernel-2.6.30.9-96.fc11.x86_64
Previous tests were done on a PC, dedicated for drive cloning/preparing/repairing, that was booted to Fedora 12 or Ubuntu 9.10 Live, using various kernel and hdparm versions.
On both the laptop and the PC, the drive would boot up frozen and was unfrozen after hot replugging.
Pim
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#330480 - 25/02/2010 12:38
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Mmm.. that copy of hdparm is _ancient_, and I do know there was a bugfix related to the secure erase stuff, in hdparm-9.26.
The current version is 9.27, at sourceforge.
Now, I just tried 9.16 here, and it erases the SSDs I have on hand. But the Intel SSD you have supports the "enhanced erase" mode, which cares about that bugfix.
So.. I suppose the thing to do, is either (1) use Intel's own SSD toolkit with their funky drive, or (2) give hdparm-9.27 a try first.
Cheers
-ml
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#330484 - 25/02/2010 15:24
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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This Intel drive is of a generation that cannot be flashed to a firmware revision that supports Trim aka Discard. I was under the impression the Intel toolkit is only for newer drives.
I did try hdparm 9.27 in the past but that alone was not enough.
Next time I will erase the drive using 9.27 and the correct command.
Or should I worry about the current status and erase again?
Thanks for all your quick replies.
Pim
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#330496 - 25/02/2010 18:44
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Well, it definitely helps to erase the sucker before a fresh install. But the slowdown isn't huge on Intel drives, mostly cuz they're already a LOT slower than the current pack for writing.
Cheers
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#331341 - 24/03/2010 02:14
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Well, finally joining the SSD club with my main machine, my Intel X25V 40GB unit gets here tomorrow, along with a 2.5 to 3.5 inch SATA enclosure so it will work in my cableless drive trays. I figure at $125, it's a good first step to throw some things on, while waiting for larger capacity SSDs to drop in price. I'll be doing some compile tests in Windows first with it, before transitioning it to my OS X side of things.
Now to figure out how to deal with performance degradation in OS X, since I haven't seen anything indicating support for trim yet. I suppose for now, I can just empty the drive from time to time and write the contents back.
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#331356 - 24/03/2010 07:13
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I upgraded my laptop yesterday to an Intel 160GB Gen2 X25-M, I also doubled the memory to 6GB and moved from WinXP 32-bit to Win7-64bit.
What a dramatic difference, everything is so much faster and I wasn't really unhappy with the speed before hand. Of course I have no idea which changes actually made the difference, as I changed 5 variables in one go:
- 4 year old OS install to clean install
- 5400rpm drive to SSD
- 3GB to 6GB
- WinXP to Win7
- 32-bit to 64-bit
I have to say that Win7 is so much better that Vista. I have stuck to XP on my main day-to-day machine because every time I used Vista it just felt wrong. Win7 just feels right.
Even the Taskbar isn't annoying me too much, which is odd because the same mixing of open apps and app shortcuts in OSX really winds me up.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#331358 - 24/03/2010 10:25
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Probably 95% of any performance improvement there is due to the SSD.
And no worries about "performance degradation" over time, at least not with the current crop of drives from Intel, OCZ, and a select few other brands.
They all have firmware which self-optimizes things on the fly and in the background. TRIM would gain another 5-10%, perhaps. But nobody other than micro-benchmarkers will ever see the difference in real-life.
EDIT: Well, perhaps on the Intel, since it is so slow at writes even when new. But their firmware is pretty good, too.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (24/03/2010 10:27)
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#331359 - 24/03/2010 10:31
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Probably 95% of any performance improvement there is due to the SSD. I expect you're right, Word, Excel, Visual Studio etc all open pretty much instantly now (even on first run) and I can't see how that can be down to anything other than the SSD.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#331360 - 24/03/2010 10:34
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I now have to switch back to the hard disk and 3GB for a couple of days until I get time to virtualize my old environment, which is going to be painful.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#331361 - 24/03/2010 12:26
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Even the Taskbar isn't annoying me too much, which is odd because the same mixing of open apps and app shortcuts in OSX really winds me up. Careful, now... this is thin ice! 
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#331362 - 24/03/2010 12:30
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Even the Taskbar isn't annoying me too much, which is odd because the same mixing of open apps and app shortcuts in OSX really winds me up. Careful, now... this is thin ice! Don't worry, I've already worshipped Steve via the medium of my iPhone today.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#332744 - 04/05/2010 22:47
Re: SSDs -- erasing them completely
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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The OCZ Vertex SSD I've got seems to have issues with firmware. I upgraded it to v1.5 awhile back and it seems to have caused some file corruption issues. v1.3 was completely okay for me even though there were alledgely issues with that as well but v1.5 has many complaints on the OCZ forum.
The support from the forum isn't particularly amazing since the answer is basically wipe it clean and if that fixes it then great otherwise RMA it. That is the "have you tried rebooting?" equivalent it seems from OCZ.
Downgrading is a pain since you have to jumper some pins on the drive and install v1.1 which wipes it clean again. The formatting isn't a big deal for me as I have to do it anyway to reinstall the OS but having to open the laptop to get at the pins is going to be annoying...
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