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#324440 - 21/07/2009 20:38 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: drakino]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
User story: As a homeowner, I'd like a lovely green backyard with various trees.

Meh. Send user story back to user for additional info. Can't estimate time required, nor are any valid done conditions discernable. How much upkeep is user willing to do? Are other colors okay besides green (how about a lilac)? Does user prefer coniferous, or deciduous trees? Fruit or nut bearing? Any HOA or zoning restrictions? Shade-bearing, or decorative?

Quote:
User story: As a homeowner, I'd like a lovely green backyard with various trees.
Story points: 13, or maybe a 20
Task: Buy supplies from local home improvement store
Task: Plant 5 apple trees
Task: Plant 6 bushes

... end of sprint ...

But I'm allergic to apples!

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#324441 - 21/07/2009 22:14 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: peter]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Originally Posted By: peter
Originally Posted By: msaeger
The trees they sell are small but they are cheap so I can afford to get a bunch.

Meaning you're principally gardening for the next generation and the one after, of course, but then perhaps if, like me, you work in an industry that's all about its two-week sprint cycles and six-month release cycles, that's part of the appeal of trees in the first place.

Peter


I'm not really very patient either but with trees I don't think you have a choice. Even if I thought getting mature trees was better the budget does not allow it. Plus I would be worried about spending thousands on a couple trees and having them die for some reason.
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#324444 - 21/07/2009 23:27 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: canuckInOR]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
Quote:
Look, the bbs has done it again! Take a simple question asked by Chris, turn it into something about honey and watermelon and then onto broadcasting in the UK. Love it!

Then UK government politics, then trees.

Quote:
Send user story back to user for additional info.

Um..... If that's how the software development industry works, let me continue to keep my distance.

Quote:
But there are very few cameras that randomly survey public areas. And the only cameras I know of that the [US] government operates are traffic light cameras.

Does anyone, Bruno especially (we need your fierce civil liberty), know how Americans can take a stand against these traffic light cameras? In my great (corrupt) state, traffic light cameras were apparently snuck through the legislature in the 11th hour without any public notice. Now they are a spreading infestation. The state and federal governments have no clue about data security. Their public security cameras can not be trusted in their hands, and thus should not exist. Perhaps I need to practice with a good slingshot...
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#324468 - 22/07/2009 16:53 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: FireFox31]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: FireFox31
Quote:
Send user story back to user for additional info.
Um..... If that's how the software development industry works, let me continue to keep my distance.

Really? All of those questions are focused on making sure you deliver what the user really wants, or needs. If I tell a landscape architect "I want a nice green yard with trees," I expect the person to ask me a lot of questions to figure out what my taste is. Who is it benefiting, if he plants a bunch of pine trees, and I hate pine trees because the sap drips all over everything, and have to rip out all his work to start over?

Current software development is kind of split into two camps -- one is to specify everything up front, go off for a few years, and come back with the end result. The other is to iterate incrementally, with each iteration adding some feature that adds business value. The problem with the first is that things change between the time you gather requirements and write the specification, and the time the final project is delivered. The problem with the latter, is that so many people get hung up on the "oh, we incrementally add features" that they forget that you still need to have some idea of why you're adding all those features, and what your end goal is.

I'd design something completely different for someone who wants a large open space in their yard, so they can host weekly BBQs/raves, than I will for someone who's enamoured with British garden mazes. Yet both styles fit the description of "a lovely green backyard with a variety of trees." Both can be done incrementally, but you have to know what you're incrementing towards. It's no different for software development.

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#324471 - 22/07/2009 17:26 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: canuckInOR]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
I'd design something completely different for someone who wants a large open space in their yard, so they can host weekly BBQs/raves, than I will for someone who's enamoured with British garden mazes. Yet both styles fit the description of "a lovely green backyard with a variety of trees." Both can be done incrementally, but you have to know what you're incrementing towards.

That's a good point. If you do what the Agile community calls Big Design Up Front -- if you go out and buy a truckload of little trees and plant them all over -- then in 20 years' time what you'll have is a stand of trees all of which are 20 years old. If your intended style is "formal English parkland", then that's fair enough -- but if you were more after "natural-looking woodland" then what you need to do is stagger the planting so that you have trees of all ages at any one time. Plant early, plant often.

Peter

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#324472 - 22/07/2009 17:43 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: canuckInOR]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: FireFox31
Quote:
Send user story back to user for additional info.
Um..... If that's how the software development industry works, let me continue to keep my distance.

Really? All of those questions are focused on making sure you deliver what the user really wants, or needs.

Most software development methodologies spend most of their effort in dealing with a customer who cannot communicate what he wants effectively, largely by requiring feedback from the customer as the project progresses. When final code gets written varies, and there are varying levels of optimization for disposable work, but they all depend on the customer providing feedback.

But where this all falls down is that all of the development paradigms, at some point, assume that the customer knows what he wants. In many cases, the customer simply doesn't know with any sort of detail and you'll get positive feedback up until the end, when they then determine that it's all wrong. Or marketroids get in the way and corrupt communications from the customer to the developer, vice versa, or both.

I'm not saying that there's a solution for this problem; I'm saying that you're expending a lot of effort to reduce the effects of a similar, but distinct, problem, assuming that it will solve both.

It's like trying to herd cats.


Edited by wfaulk (22/07/2009 17:47)
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#324474 - 22/07/2009 18:22 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: FireFox31]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: FireFox31
Quote:
Send user story back to user for additional info.

Um..... If that's how the software development industry works, let me continue to keep my distance.

My example above was just a very quick slice of the entire agile development model. In this particular case, the user story lacked acceptance criteria ensuring everyone understood the goal. The proper action was to reject it, instead of wasting a sprint of time going the wrong direction.

My personal preference for development is the agile method. If it is done properly, it can bring a lot of benefits to the process. Openness is a big part of it, allowing everyone a chance to ensure they are on the same page. It was actively encouraged that everyone participate in the review days to see how the game was progressing at my previous place of work.

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#324499 - 23/07/2009 11:27 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: wfaulk]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1522
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: FireFox31
Quote:
Send user story back to user for additional info.
Um..... If that's how the software development industry works, let me continue to keep my distance.

Really? All of those questions are focused on making sure you deliver what the user really wants, or needs.

Most software development methodologies spend most of their effort in dealing with a customer who cannot communicate what he wants effectively, largely by requiring feedback from the customer as the project progresses.

You just described a large number of normal interactions between business and customers. The majority of my customers don't know exactly what they need and the first part of the process is helping them figure out what they need, then the methodology we'd use to get there.

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#324878 - 05/08/2009 01:19 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: FireFox31]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
How about cameras (not yours) in your own home, with private security firms monitoring everything you and your family do? Every now and then they'll also come around to check up on you.

The Sin Bins... I couldn't have made this up if I tried.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#324879 - 05/08/2009 01:24 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
I couldn't have made this up if I tried.

Maybe not, but apparently someone else did:

Originally Posted By: Ed Balls
the idea we are planning to put CCTV in families' homes is complete and total nonsense
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#324886 - 05/08/2009 12:02 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Damn, that's good to hear. So was this a complete fabrication or has some minister backed down due to backlash? Is the "Daily Express" paper noted for messing up their fact checking when they publish stories?
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#324889 - 05/08/2009 12:58 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: hybrid8]
boxer
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
I'd say that they never bothered about facts getting in the way of a good story!
(I'd attribute that to whoever first said it, but I can't google it!)
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#324891 - 05/08/2009 13:24 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
It seems to be related to this (page 6):
Quote:
Intensive support programme in supervised accommodation

Families in this type of provision receive 24-hour support and supervision from staff in accommodation provided by the project. Families are likely to be involved in many structured sessions complemented by daily unstructured observation. If the family complies with interventions and behaviour improves sufficiently then they will be able to move into one of the above.

Apparently in severe cases, they will temporarily move a family into a supervised housing project. There's no mention of cameras, only "supervision from staff". (Though it seems unlikely that there wouldn't be some cameras, at least in common areas.)

I won't comment on the quality of the paper. I don't know, despite my suspicions.


Edited by wfaulk (05/08/2009 13:24)
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#324892 - 05/08/2009 14:07 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: wfaulk]
tahir
pooh-bah

Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1896
Loc: London
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
I won't comment on the quality of the paper. I don't know, despite my suspicions.


It's too hard to wipe your arse with, can't think of any other use for it or the Daily Mail.

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#325415 - 24/08/2009 21:47 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: tahir]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
Thought this was relevant today-

1,000 cameras 'solve one crime' (BBC)


Found on slashdot.
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#325418 - 24/08/2009 21:55 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: Robotic]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Wow, I wonder who else said something along these lines... wink

Quote:
"It creates a huge intrusion on privacy, yet provides little or no improvement in security"


Interesting tidbits...

Quote:
The internal police report found the million-plus cameras in London rarely help catch criminals.


1 Million. London. Wow.

Quote:
Nationwide, the government has spent £500m on CCTV cameras


I'm sure that doesn't include expenditures by local municipalities/counsels.

Last bit...

Quote:
A Home Office spokeswoman said CCTVs "help communities feel safer".


I wonder if they'd feel the same knowing only 8 out of 269 suspected robbers (London stat?) were captured with the aid of CCTV.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#325419 - 24/08/2009 22:18 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: hybrid8]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
Sorry, did someone say something?
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#325420 - 24/08/2009 22:22 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: andym]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
An alternative take on the matter....

Originally Posted By: slashdot poster
Sure, but how many crimes did it prevent? I always considered cameras more of a prevention, i.e. only idiots commit crimes in front of cameras.

Obviously, another question is how many crimes simply moved to areas without cameras.
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#325424 - 24/08/2009 23:32 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: andym]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
1 Million cameras in London. Are there actually any areas without cameras? Look, let your tax man spend your money on as many cameras as they like.

I'd be happy to see a study or report indicating an increase in crime in the 2 or three dark alleys in London not monitored by a camera. Also mentioned in the article is a little tidbit about the images from those cameras not being used effectively for crime prevention/solving.

It would be a lot cheaper to just put up dummy cameras if all crooks care about is seeing a box with a lens. Or maybe just some signs that say thee are cameras watching.

These reports are beautiful ammunition for the argument against CCTV here in Canada and in the US, afaic.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#325429 - 25/08/2009 07:59 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: hybrid8]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
1 Million cameras in London. Are there actually any areas without cameras? Look, let your tax man spend your money on as many cameras as they like.

As I'm sure you have guessed there aren't likely to be 1 million CCTV cameras in London.

The totally flawed "report" that we talked about earlier in this thread estimated (very badly) a figure for the UK of 4.5 million or about 1 camera per 14 people. Anyone who has thought about this "report" for more than a few seconds knows that the figure is not far from just being made up. The figure was made by counting cameras in a busy urban area and multiplying out to the whole country.

Using the 1 in 14 figure, London with a population of 7.5 million would have 0.5 million cameras. And that is from and extremely dubious starting point.

If there really were 1 million cameras that would mean that across Great London (600 sq miles) there would be 1600 cameras per square mile. Given that there are significant areas of Great London that are fields and parks, the actual figure for the populated bits would in fact have to be much higher.

So, does anyone who spends any time in London actually believe that there are 2000+ cameras per square mile ?

And to answer the "are there any areas without cameras", the answer is yes. Most of the residential areas in London don't have any cameras. Given that most of London is residential areas, it makes the 1 million figure look even more ridiculous.

That BBC report says:

"The internal police report found the million-plus cameras in London rarely help catch criminals.

In one month CCTV helped capture just eight out of 269 suspected robbers."

I'll bet that the 1 million cameras figure isn't in that police report at all. The journalist has taken the 8 out of 269 bit and added it to a dodgy estimate with the end result that it makes it look like the police have said that London has 1,000,000 CCTV cameras frown
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#325430 - 25/08/2009 08:18 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: andy]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: andy
As I'm sure you have guessed there aren't likely to be 1 million CCTV cameras in London. [...] The figure was made by counting cameras in a busy urban area and multiplying out to the whole country.

Over here they quote 7,431, which does appear to be the result of asking all 33 London borough councils how many they have. Those numbers don't include privately-owned cameras (in shops, for instance) whose views include public areas, but it's hard to believe that there's 993,000 such.

Peter

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#325431 - 25/08/2009 08:30 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: peter]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I finally found the report in question.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.urbaneye.net%2Fresults%2Fue_wp6.pdf&ei=TLmTSpeYGM2OjAeg-OnnDQ&usg=AFQjCNF_9yjlzfqr3FLnhUaQOiWLHHXM2g&sig2=pCh8-yftX5AAfgYR-L7ysA

The section that all these numbers come from is:



(sorry about the image, the PDF doesn't allow copying)

They basically surveyed 269 shops/offices on a busy London high street.

Even by their figures, of the 500,000 CCTV cameras they think London has, 85% of them are in private businesses. Elsewhere in the report they reveal that the London Borough of Wandsworth has just 210 open street cameras, which equates to 1 open street government operated camera per 1338 residents.
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#325432 - 25/08/2009 08:35 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: andy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I should point out for those that don't know, Putney High Street is a small single road of shops (with one small shopping mall) surrounded by a huge area of residential streets that almost certainly have bugger all CCTV cameras.
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#325433 - 25/08/2009 08:44 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: andy]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
I've just surveyed the immediate area around my house and not found any CCTV cameras. Therefore, by extrapolating from that data I can reasonably assume that there are no CCTV cameras at all in the UK that are attached to houses.

Making the data fit your story is an understatement for this. I guess its served their purposes though because the story has gotten quite a bit of publicity.

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#325434 - 25/08/2009 08:48 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: tman]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I'll bet when most people read about CCTV cameras in the press they immediately think about the on street cameras. The articles that quote the 4+ million cameras never take the time to point out that 85% (according the original report) of those mythical cameras would be inside private businesses.


Edited by andy (25/08/2009 10:52)
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#325435 - 25/08/2009 10:33 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: andy]
tahir
pooh-bah

Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1896
Loc: London
We've got a dummy one at work, does that count? One at home too, looks real, maybe it was once hooked up to something.

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#325437 - 25/08/2009 11:13 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: andy]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1522
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: andy
The totally flawed "report" that we talked about earlier in this thread estimated (very badly) a figure for the UK of 4.5 million or about 1 camera per 14 people. Anyone who has thought about this "report" for more than a few seconds knows that the figure is not far from just being made up. The figure was made by counting cameras in a busy urban area and multiplying out to the whole country.

Are you trying to tell us that a journalist/analyst used dodgy figures and methodology to come up with a story/report? I'm shocked! wink

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#325438 - 25/08/2009 11:29 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: Tim]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
We have nearly a dozen CCTV cameras in the offices at work. Really helped to figure out which of the cleaners were stealing TFT's.
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#325439 - 25/08/2009 11:29 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: Tim]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
I was going to do some cheesy calculation based on extrapolating out to the entire world from the data in that report but I've found something more interesting. The US Census Bureau publishes that the world has an estimated population of 6,779,885,336 at the time I looked. They have a note to say that they don't actually know the population down to the last person but it is still a little silly to publish it like that. Each time you refresh, the number slowly increments.

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#325443 - 25/08/2009 12:12 Re: Giving back to the empegbbs knowledgebase [Re: tman]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
According to that site we hit 6 billion in 1999 and will hit 7 billion in 2012. Now that is scary.
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