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#344198 - 13/04/2011 08:23 Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck?
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
I'm looking for a wireless mouse and keyboard that doesn't suck. That is:

  • It must have the Ins/Home/PgUp/Del/End/PgDn cluster in the right place, and right order.
  • It must have proper function keys. That is: not remapped to do odd things, and not half-size or half-height.
  • It must have a Windows key.


I would prefer one with media keys, but not that fussed. I'm not bothered about Bluetooth vs. whatever RF, as long as it works with Windows 7.
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-- roger

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#344199 - 13/04/2011 09:57 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
You might want a Caps Lock and Num Lock LED as well. I know my wireless keyloard does not have one and that indeed sucks

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#344200 - 13/04/2011 11:43 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Wow. That's oddly hard to find.

I only found one — Kensington PilotBoard — and then realized you probably wanted a UK layout, and they don't seem to sell a UK version of that.

Check to see if HP sells one. They sell a US keyboard that matches your specs, but their site seems hosed right now and I can't get it to load to search for either one.
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#344201 - 13/04/2011 12:24 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: wfaulk]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Wow. That's oddly hard to find.


Yeah. Most modern keyboards tend to mess up the function keys (which I need because I use Visual Studio, and a lot of the keystrokes are function-key based), and the ins/del cluster, which just freaks me out when Del and PgUp/Dn are not in the right place.
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#344202 - 13/04/2011 12:24 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Redrum]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Redrum
You might want a Caps Lock and Num Lock LED as well. I know my wireless keyloard does not have one and that indeed sucks


Oddly, I don't think I'm bothered about that, but I might be once they're missing smile
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-- roger

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#344203 - 13/04/2011 14:39 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
I'm still very happy with my Logitech DiNovo keyboard + mouse combo (not the Edge variant, the classical DiNovo), but I don't know if they still sell it.
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#344204 - 13/04/2011 14:54 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Roger
  • It must have the Ins/Home/PgUp/Del/End/PgDn cluster in the right place, and right order.

Just to clarify what that means, is this the right order?

I understand what you mean about the function keys. It used to be that on laptops you would see the alternate functions on the F-keys, and you had to hold down something like an Fn key to use them. I see a lot of laptops these days that do the opposite, where you have to hold down the Fn key to get the F-keys, and I hate that.

I have the Logitech K800, which I've really been liking. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to meet your requirements. The F keys are slightly more than half-height, but I think they're contoured in a way that makes up for that. They have a good feel IMO.

The only negative I have for this keyboard is that the battery runs out pretty quick because of the backlight. I love the backlight, but while I probably replaced the couple of AA's in my old wireless keyboard every 12-18 months, I probably have to recharge my K800 every other week. It's not a big deal, though, I just hook up a micro USB cable overnight and it's done. Or I can keep working on it while it's charging.

You didn't specify any requirements for the mouse, did you? Anything you're looking for there? I like my Logitech Performance MX quite a lot.
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Matt

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#344205 - 13/04/2011 16:06 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I'd imagine he'd prefer a UK keyboard layout.
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Bitt Faulk

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#344206 - 13/04/2011 17:57 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
I'd imagine he'd prefer a UK keyboard layout.

Yes, I see. I wasn't familiar with the UK layout. I was only linking to that image to verify what he was talking about in the section I quoted above. He said he wanted that cluster in the "right" place, but how do I know what he thinks is the right place?
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#344207 - 13/04/2011 18:02 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: wfaulk]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
I'd imagine he'd prefer a UK keyboard layout.

Meh... the paint on the key caps doesn't matter, you can set your layout to whatever you like. smile

(says the guy touch-typing dvorak on a qwerty keyboard)

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#344208 - 13/04/2011 18:26 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: canuckInOR]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
I always wanted to play with Dvorak. I even set up my favorite free typing tutor, Stamina, to use it, but never got around to it.
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#344209 - 13/04/2011 18:28 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: canuckInOR]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Anyone know why the US and UK layouts are so different? Wikipedia somewhat explains it with the need to type £ and € commonly instead of $, but what about historically before the euro? Why the extra keys, and different enter for example? Is it mostly just legacy from wanting one physical layout with different key caps for multiple languages in the European area?

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#344210 - 13/04/2011 18:28 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: canuckInOR]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR

Meh... the paint on the key caps doesn't matter, you can set your layout to whatever you like. smile


Ah, but what does matter is the position and number of keys. And that UK layout has a different arrangement than my US keyboards and many other keyboards I've seen. As a quick example, there's an extra key between the left shift and Z keys.

And if you use that keyboard without a UK layout at the software layer, you're going to have to start swapping keycaps around.

But unfortunately (or fortunately?) it's impossible to make a single keyboard perform exactly the same way in every locale because of the software layers that remap the key codes. Not when using HID or key codes anyway. I suppose someone could make a keyboard with a micro-controller that spit out specific unicode strings. Then you'd be stuck with what was written on the keycaps.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#344211 - 13/04/2011 19:47 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Dignan]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted By: Dignan
I understand what you mean about the function keys. It used to be that on laptops you would see the alternate functions on the F-keys, and you had to hold down something like an Fn key to use them. I see a lot of laptops these days that do the opposite, where you have to hold down the Fn key to get the F-keys, and I hate that.

Yep I think that it's quite silly to have to press Fn-F2 ro rename or Fn-F5 to refresh but be able to adjust volume or screen brightness with just F1, F2 etc particularly when many laptops also have dedicated media keys for volume at least and brightness is not something that you change every few minutes. Dell's (at least a studio 17 has) have a setting in the BIOS to swap it back to original sane settings.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#344212 - 13/04/2011 19:51 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Robotic]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Robotic
I always wanted to play with Dvorak. I even set up my favorite free typing tutor, Stamina, to use it, but never got around to it.

You can't "play" with dvorak, you commit whole hog. Typing is all about muscle memory, and playing will never get you to that point.

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#344213 - 13/04/2011 19:53 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: canuckInOR]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
As a "C" programmer (and mac user) I prefer the US keyboards to the UK ones, mainly because if I'm in bootcamp I can create "#" characters naturally rather than having to use Ctrl+Alt+3, I hardly ever use the £ sign.

Adrian

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#344214 - 13/04/2011 20:12 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: canuckInOR]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: Robotic
I always wanted to play with Dvorak. I even set up my favorite free typing tutor, Stamina, to use it, but never got around to it.

You can't "play" with dvorak, you commit whole hog. Typing is all about muscle memory, and playing will never get you to that point.

I agree. The point you make is exactly why I haven't done much towards it.
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#344215 - 13/04/2011 20:36 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: canuckInOR]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR

You can't "play" with dvorak, you commit whole hog.


I think I would probably just start learning Chinese instead, it seems a lot more achievable. wink
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#344216 - 13/04/2011 22:42 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: hybrid8]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant


Good luck, Bruno!
laugh
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10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)

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#344217 - 13/04/2011 22:47 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: hybrid8]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
I think I would probably just start learning Chinese instead, it seems a lot more achievable. wink

I do have a copy of Windows 3.2 if you need it.

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#344218 - 14/04/2011 00:05 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: drakino]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1038
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
I have a copy of Windows 2000 in Traditional Chinese. None of that commie pinko simplified crap...

You're welcome to it.

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#344224 - 14/04/2011 08:18 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Dignan]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Archeon
I'm still very happy with my Logitech DiNovo keyboard + mouse combo


PgUp/PgDn key cluster's not right.

Originally Posted By: Dignan
Just to clarify what that means, is this the right order?


Yes.

Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Meh... the paint on the key caps doesn't matter, you can set your layout to whatever you like. smile


As Bruno points out, the UK keyboard actually has different key layout. Relative to a US keyboard, the backslash moves from above Enter to between Left-Shift and Z; the # symbol is on a key next to the Enter key (Shift+3 gets you a £).

Originally Posted By: sn00p
As a "C" programmer (and mac user) I prefer the US keyboards to the UK ones, mainly because if I'm in bootcamp I can create "#" characters naturally rather than having to use Ctrl+Alt+3


This doesn't make any sense. On a real UK keyboard, # gets its own key.
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-- roger

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#344225 - 14/04/2011 09:05 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: Roger

This doesn't make any sense. On a real UK keyboard, # gets its own key.


Yes....but UK mac keyboards don't, infact you won't even see the # symbol anywhere, you have to know that it's on the "3" key. (Alt+3 in Mac OS and Ctrl+Alt+3 in Windows)

Hence why as a C programmer I prefer US mac keyboards.

Adrian


Edited by sn00p (14/04/2011 09:06)

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#344226 - 14/04/2011 09:06 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Roger

Originally Posted By: sn00p
As a "C" programmer (and mac user) I prefer the US keyboards to the UK ones, mainly because if I'm in bootcamp I can create "#" characters naturally rather than having to use Ctrl+Alt+3


This doesn't make any sense. On a real UK keyboard, # gets its own key.

It does if you are using a UK Mac keyboard, which doesn't have a dedicated # key (or a key with a # symbol on it at all).
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#344227 - 14/04/2011 09:42 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: andy]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: andy
It does if you are using a UK Mac keyboard, which doesn't have a dedicated # key (or a key with a # symbol on it at all).


Wow. That sucks. Does it have double-quote on Shift+2, etc.? I can only find pictures of what look like US mac keyboards.
_________________________
-- roger

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#344228 - 14/04/2011 09:43 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: sn00p]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: sn00p
Hence why as a C programmer I prefer US mac keyboards.


Use ??= smile
_________________________
-- roger

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#344229 - 14/04/2011 09:54 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: Roger

Wow. That sucks. Does it have double-quote on Shift+2, etc.? I can only find pictures of what look like US mac keyboards.



Double quote is near the return key shared with the apostrophe. 2 is the @ and euro symbol.

Adrian

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#344230 - 14/04/2011 11:33 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: Roger]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: Roger
Does it have double-quote on Shift+2, etc.? I can only find pictures of what look like US mac keyboards.


Here's a full-sized (wired) UK Mac keyboard. Open the image in a new tab or window to see the full size (~900 pixels wide)



The PgUp cluster is correct and it still has an extra key between the left shift and z, though different glyphs. There are also a number of other changes making this distinctly different than the previously posted UK keyboard.

BTW, what are the symbols on the key below the ESC used for?


Edited by hybrid8 (14/04/2011 11:42)
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#344231 - 14/04/2011 11:51 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: hybrid8]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Originally Posted By: hybrid8

BTW, what are the symbols on the key below the ESC used for?

Those seem to be the 'plus minus' and 'paragraph' symbols. Not used all that frequently. The paragraph symbol I used most frequently in legal documents. The 'plus minus' symbol is used even less.
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#344232 - 14/04/2011 12:27 Re: Wireless PC keyboard that doesn't suck? [Re: BartDG]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Since it wasn't (originally) immediately clear, I'm talking about the Mac keyboard below.

To me it would seem like a good move to standardize (at least for the UK) on the US layout with minor keycap changes. For instance in the UK you'd place the £ up top at number along with # - and you'd type them with inverse modifiers compared to a US layout. Shift and Option in Mac OS. Similarly I suppose for the € which requires Shift+Option+2 in the US layout. It can be swapped with ™ which only requires Option.

I really can't stand that janky return/enter key on the Apple UK keyboard.


Edited by hybrid8 (14/04/2011 13:57)
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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