#353181 - 11/07/2012 19:30
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I wonder why Google just never released a standalone maps program for iOS if they were serious about delivering vector and navigation to the platform. They have plenty of other iOS applications.
It seems highly likely, to me at least, that their deal with Apple to supply mapping data for iOS also included a clause to stop them doing their own app.
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#353183 - 11/07/2012 19:53
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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..I also find myself navigating with the satellite layer enabled from time to time, which does use quite a bit of data, and which you can't really pre-cache since the data volume is quite large (and varies depending on what zoom level you're at.) Dedicated GPS navigation systems use "preloaded maps", and have lots of detail including 3D buildings etc.. all in just a few GB of flash for entire continents. Same deal for "proper" GPS navigation software for Android --> the marketplace has several, including what appears to be a very good one based on TomTom maps (preloaded, of course). Cheers
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#353184 - 11/07/2012 19:56
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Apple is a software and hardware company, and have been using both to differentiate new products for as long as they've been around. It's something I can accept for the most part, but there are plenty of times where some of the decisions leave me feeling burned.
Thankfully, third party apps are generally better than Apple-supplied apps. Apple's built-in iOS apps actually kind of suck, especially considering they've barely changed in 5 years. The issue is in deep system integration. Apple's apps have it and most third party ones don't/can't.
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#353191 - 11/07/2012 21:25
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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It seems highly likely, to me at least, that their deal with Apple to supply mapping data for iOS also included a clause to stop them doing their own app. Doesn't matter now for the built in maps, since iOS 6 will have Apple provided maps from the companies they acquired. Vector based for all iOS 6 devices, and driving directions for people with newer hardware. And I think everyone would be happy if Apple came out with their own mapping application, and Google released their full mapping application. But the problem for me would still be that you wouldn't get to choose which one is your default app.
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#353195 - 11/07/2012 22:44
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Bingo Matt! iOS has needed a default app API forever. Microsoft was mandated by governments to make this painless in Windows. IMO, iOS is getting to the point where to a developer, it's practically a monopoly. You can possibly make a living doing mobile apps for some other platform exclusively, but striking out iOS is a huge (potential) loss to the bottom line.
That said, I'm not sure the default app thing will have as much of an appreciable impact for maps. I can't even think of a single time I've ever been directed to the maps app via another app, unlike with mail, safari, photos/camera roll, phone, messages, etc.
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#353197 - 11/07/2012 22:54
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Even if they have a monopoly (which I don't see), they don't have to add defaults. Microsoft didn't have to either because they were a monopoly. They were forced to because they abused their monopoly power to gain an unfair advantage in a new market.
I would agree though, it would be nice to be able to change defaults.
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#353201 - 12/07/2012 00:05
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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I may be totally wrong, but I'm pretty sure that if you have a data connection when you start your route, your route will be cached on the phone and you won't simply lose it if you go through a dead spot. The problem is that you probably need a data connection if you make a wrong turn and need course correction. But in a case like that, you'd need to cache a good deal of data if you were doing a 500 mile trip and needed all possible detours along the way. Chances are, in those cases, that at some point you'll be able to get signal back somewhere and correct your course anyway.
Yes, you are right about creating a route and you will be OK if you stay on track. However if you make a wrong turn and keep going (reminds me of a Bruce Springsteen song) you will need a data connection to get back on track. Or if you get to your destination and then want to go somewhere (maybe to a restaurant) you need a data connection again. However for me I have a phone that isn’t a phone. I have a Samsung wifi 5.0. It’s an android machine with no phone or data connection other than wifi (and no monthly bills). When traveling I use my Verizon MiFi (an internet connection that isn’t a phone either) but since this is also my home IPS I often don’t take it with me. So being able to have a totally “off the grid” GPS navigation system is a big deal for me.
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#353206 - 12/07/2012 03:45
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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With the maps you actually need deeper integration for defaults. You really need to be able to change the tile source that is used for the maps in the Apple apps. i.e. you need to be able to swap out the map tiles within Find My Friends, iPhoto and Find My iPhone with another source And of course that is never going to happen I'm just praying that Apple have something up their sleeves to make their maps actually usable before launch. I'm not hopeful though. I'd publish examples of how bad their maps are, but I suspect the NDA forbids me from doing so.
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#353210 - 12/07/2012 12:11
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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AFAIK, Apple don't actually own any map data and have not acquired any map data companies. The companies they've acquired have, to my knowledge, all been focused on map presentation technologies.
IMO, letting Nokia acquire Navteq and TomTom acquire Teleatlas were two huge mistakes for both Google and Apple.
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#353211 - 12/07/2012 15:17
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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That is my understanding too. Part of the problem with the iOS 6 maps is just down to presentation, which they at least could fix. Though I fear that they won't, I think someone at Apple thinks maps with not a lot of info on them are somehow better than those with more info On the data side I guess I'm holding out the hope that they can merge in some data from OSM or some other source. Bing is notable in that in the UK it uses NavTeq, but it clearly doesn't use just NavTeq (unless NavTeq have a lot of detail that TomTom choose not to surface in their own apps). Or in th UK maybe they could do a deal to get the Ordnance Survey vector data. But I suspect that is wishful thinking for version 1.0 at least. And unfortunately even if they did manage to do all of that, there would still be no StreetView
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#353215 - 12/07/2012 22:15
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Maybe it's being spokesmodeled by Bob Bobson.
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#353218 - 13/07/2012 00:04
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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For me, I think a 7" tablet might be just The Right Size(tm). Anything phone sized is too small, requiring my reading glasses to use the darned thing. And anything as monstrous as the iPad is simply to bulky for easy portability. Or so I think. The $250 (16GB) Nexus tablet does have my interest, but I'll start with the Galaxy Nexus phone (with reading glasses) and work my way up from there perhaps.
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#353222 - 13/07/2012 05:31
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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The $250 (16GB) Nexus tablet does have my interest Mine's on pre-order. Should be turning up any day now. I'll let you know how I get on with it.
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#353224 - 13/07/2012 12:08
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Rumor has it Apple will to the 8" thing sometime later this year. I say it's 60-40 at this point given the evidence - they've scrapped far-along plans too many times to count over the years. That will probably be a more reasonable size than 7" for tapping and dragging around the screen. I'm still a phone + notebook person though. Or simply take the phone and deal with the tradeoffs.
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#353226 - 13/07/2012 12:28
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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I'm still a phone + notebook person though. Me too, at present. Especially when the 10" tablet things feel (despite being lighter) nearly as bulky as the netbook and yet lack a physical keyboard. That's where I think there's room for a more reasonable tablet size -- I mean, if they're going to omit the keyboard, then at least make the danged thing small enough to more easily tote around! Cheers
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#353227 - 13/07/2012 12:30
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Bruno, what are you using for mobile data access -- which provider/plan etc.. and how much data does your device typically log over a monthly billing period?
Thanks.
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#353228 - 13/07/2012 13:04
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I don't have mobile data plan. I don't leave wifi zones long enough to warrant paying a fixed amount per month ($80+) and no one has anything remotely interesting in PAYG data in this area. I used to have a $15/mo iPad plan, but that long ago stopped working on the iPhone and the Bell techs couldn't explain to me why that was.
On my street I get coverage from almost top to bottom with access to multiple neighbor's access points. Set up the same way with other friends, then I use free ones where I can and also some premium ones I have access to because of certain memberships, etc.
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#353230 - 13/07/2012 13:51
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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This is the problem with measuring screen size only by the diagonal measurement. Worked fine when everything was the same aspect ratio, but even the various 7 inch Android tablets aren't holding to the same ratio. This is a good illustration, including the rumored smaller iPad. Even if the iPad was 7 inch instead of 7.85, it'd still have more screen area due to the 4:3 form factor. http://yfrog.com/z/h36j2npUltimately it comes down to the size of tap targets. Browsing on the Fire is a PITA with web buttons/links, due to the device telling web servers it runs at a desktop resolution. Phones get around this a little by telling sites they run a pretty small resolution. I wonder what the Nexus 7 does.
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#353231 - 13/07/2012 14:25
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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I don't have mobile data plan. I don't leave wifi zones long enough to warrant paying a fixed amount per month ($80+) and no one has anything remotely interesting in PAYG data in this area. That's a decent strategy, especially given that Mobilicity (and probably also Wind?) doesn't have coverage in your area. They all cover me here, but I'm going to use the device on Telus for the first two months until my contract is finally over with. Two choices for data: $10/month for "flex data" (MBs), or $35/month for a heavier duty version (GBs). I think the "$10/month" flex plan is good for about 500MB at a $30 cost, so it may be the right one. We'll see. Either way, Telus shares HSPA+ with Bell (and vice-versa), so DSL-speed data is available under that plan just about anywhere I'm likely to go inside of Canada.
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#353233 - 13/07/2012 14:31
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Yeah, there's a pricing anomaly in those plans, which makes the "$10/month" flex data plan the better of the two:
$10 for up to 100MB +$10 for the next 150MB +$10 for the next 250MB +$0.02 per MB after that ($20/GB).
Expensive compared with wireline data, but probably okay depending on how much the phone uses with a typical set of apps.
Cheers
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#353234 - 13/07/2012 14:37
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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The other plan looks better for use as a near replacement for wireline:
$35 for up to 1GB +$10 for the next 1GB +$15 for the next 2GB +$15 for the next 3GB +$0.02 per MB after that ($20/GB).
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#353235 - 13/07/2012 14:39
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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MMm.. or maybe a non-flex plan:
$35 for up to 2GB +very expensive after that.
or
$60 for up to 6GB (definitely not for me) +very expensive after that.
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#353236 - 13/07/2012 14:45
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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If you go with one of the <1GB plans, make sure you set up your phone to avoid doing background downloads over the phone network. There are all kinds of apps that would happily consume your bandwidth, if you let them. Luckily, the biggest things, like app updates, have a "WiFi only" switch.
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#353237 - 13/07/2012 14:45
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I forgot to mention that for voice I'm with Speakout Wireless (7-11) which operates on the Rogers network. Prices used to be quite a bit better than they are now, but it still makes the most sense for me. I can get by on $100 for about year. Air time credit lasts a year and any top-up amount will roll remaining credit for another year.
I do wish the iPhone has two sim slots, so that I could more easily shop for data elsewhere without having to give up this PAYG. I didn't have much luck with the dual sim adapter I tried last year.
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#353294 - 16/07/2012 14:50
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: hybrid8]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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#353295 - 16/07/2012 15:10
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Impressive. Seems like Google has patched up a lot of the rough spots of Android. Might take a second evaluation pass at it myself soon.
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#353299 - 16/07/2012 16:12
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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#353300 - 16/07/2012 16:20
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I carry a Ken Onion Leek at all times. This is the reason. My Nexus 7 is coming tomorrow via UPS. Ken Onion is standing by....
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-Rob Riccardelli 80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#353303 - 16/07/2012 17:50
Re: new goodies from... Google
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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It's a funny video. But it's also extremely telling of Google's retail business acumen.
You know what's also funny? All the pundits saying they didn't think it was possible to make a good tablet for $200. Why's that funny? Because Apple has been doing it for a few years now. They just don't SELL it for $200 to you or me.
You see, to stay in business selling a tablet at $200, it better cost you no more than $100 to make it.
Edited by hybrid8 (16/07/2012 17:53)
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