#5553 - 20/10/1999 04:46
empeg unit add-on IO board
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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I am considering producing a PCB for an add-on IO system for the empeg, which would plug into the serial port. What I am posting for is to find out what people would like to see in such a product, and get an idea of how many would want to buy one if I did it.
This is not an official empeg Ltd product in any way, incidentally.
The current specification list is as follows:
Processor: PIC16C77, 8k EPROM, 368 bytes ram, 8 off 8-bit ADC ports, uart, I2C, SPI interfaces
4Kbytes non-volatile EEPROM
battery-backed RTC
optional 2-axis accelerometer
a number of 12-volt switch inputs
a number of 12-volt power control outputs
a number of TTL digital IO ports
possibly interface ports for various control stalks
Can anyone think of anything missing from this list?
There are a number of possibilities for producing and selling such a product, ie. circuit diagrams and photoplots for producing PCBs,
bare PCBs, PCBs and parts kits, or fully-built unit. What would people prefer? My preference would be bare PCBs plus programmed PICs, but this obviously depends on the ability of the purchaser to source components and build the board.
What I need to know is: (A) are there enough people interested in such a thing to make it worth doing, and (B) how much would they be prepared to pay.
Thoughts?
Patrick.
Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.
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Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#5554 - 20/10/1999 06:37
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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RTC: Damn good idea, so long as the empeg can pick it up and display the time.
This would mean associated discovery and clock management software on the empeg.
One of the input channels of the ADC could do with an electret mike and a suitable pre-amp to be used for speed/ambient noise detection (to allow the playback volume to be jacked up).
Fused outputs would be a good idea, in spite of the semis being more likely to die before the fuses. Alternatively, relay-based outputs would be fine.
The digital I/O should (if at all possible) be opto-isolated.
If the control stalk interface was jumperable to select type, this might be useful. If you include the Renault control stalk i/f, you have at least one customer ;^)
A couple of properly isolated RS232 ports might be fun (scrolling rear window LED displays, etc.). Mind you though, this would need a bit of extra RAM to be much use; any chance of a bit more RAM?
A board design laid out to match a commonly available casing (Farnell? RS?) that could be used for a build-in would help.
Some control software on the empeg might be needed for basic functions, but I suspect you are looking for a hardware only package here - most of the smart cookies should be able to figure out nice things to do with it anyway ;^)
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#5555 - 20/10/1999 07:56
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: schofiel]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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The idea is that the onboard peripherals would be driven by a VERY simple OS, which would basically just be a simple request/response type system. IE. send a command, read the result back, or send a command, then receive a data stream until further notice. The RTC could be set to send a time update every second, for instance.
At least one of the ADCs will have a preamp on, yes.
The 12V IO would be done in a robost manner. Outputs would be via the same sort of solid-state switch that the auxilary output on the empeg already uses, which is pretty bomb-proof anyway. Resettable fuses are a possibility, but they're a bit expensive. Relays are much too expensive.
Opto-isolated TTL I/O is, again, possible but adds to the price. A cheaper solution is a socketed, sacrificial buffer, and common sense.
The control stalk interface is subject to variation, since I'd need to get several different ones and try them. They're likely to be either a simple serial protocol, variable resistors, or switches, so the standard interfaces on the proposed board would handle them anyway.
The main serial port to the empeg would be normal RS232 line levels. There is only one hardware UART on the 16C77, but software ones could easily be implemented as long as the baud rate wasn't excessive. The processor would be run at around 20MHz, so it would handle up to, say 4800 baud for GPS systems, without much trouble.
Ram is more of a problem. The internal RAM of the 16C77 is limited, and for cost/simplicity reasons I'd like to stay with a single-chip solution. It would be possible to add an external static ram chip, but this would eat up about 20 of the 33 available IO lines.
I'm planning on using a standard eurocard (160mm x 100mm) board size, which would fit dozens of standard boxes, some of which are very nice even though quite cheap.
Patrick.
Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#5556 - 20/10/1999 08:55
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Excellent. Put me down for one, please, with a possible second to follow.
UPDATE: I neglected to answer regarding pricing; if I was going to buy, I think I would have a preference for a bare board, supplied with a pre-programmed PIC, for which I could source the components and build myself. This would let me choose which parts of the board's functionality I would actually use by only building in what I needed, giving slightly better control over the cost.
I have no idea what price a Euro card size board costs to produce these days - but a board plus a PIC? I'd happily pay up to about say, 20 quid ($30?). Have you any idea of what sort of price range you are pitching at?
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#5557 - 20/10/1999 10:54
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: schofiel]
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addict
Registered: 22/07/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: Florida
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Any possibility of making it a USB Master?
I know you'd need more than a PIC/Microcontroller, but It might be worth the extra cost if we could add on USB devices through the IO Board. Plenty of cheap microprocessors offer built-in USB support (ie. MPC823). It might not be feasible, but it's an idea...
Jason
_~= Dearing =~_
"WAY too happy about having #99."
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_~= Dearing =~_
Gettin' back into it thanks to slimrio!
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#5558 - 20/10/1999 11:29
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: Dearing]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Unlikely in the extreme. USB mastering circuitry is very non-trivial, and the software is worse. There aren't, to my knowledge, any 'cheap' microcontrollers that implement USB master services. The MPC823 is a PPC chip, and requires quite a lot of support hardware. Most of the other such chips are similarly complex/expensive. A 16C77 is only a few dollars, and includes pretty much everything that is needed bar power-switching and preamps, etc, for the thing I have in mind. If I start looking into producing a PPC based system with USB mastering, etc, I'll end up redesigning the empegCAR main board again, which would take even longer and cost as much. Not really useful. Sorry.
Patrick.
Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#5559 - 20/10/1999 21:28
Exactly!
[Re: pca]
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journeyman
Registered: 18/08/1999
Posts: 90
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ USA
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What I told the empeg folks we needed. That single serial port just doesn't cut it for flexibility.
One thing I'd like to see added to your list (and you may be thinking along these lines already) is a pass-through serial port or the ability to have your bo act as a mux which would break out a data stream from the empeg into multiple serial ports.
Thanks! It's people like you that will make this empeg platform like no other.
=-Clarke
_______________________________
List 351, empeg 00045, 10gb, Amber
_________________________
______________________________________
Queue 351,
Mk I, 30GB
Mk II #60000022 80gb, Blue - docked
Mk2a, 80GB, Bruface, lighted buttons and dial
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#5560 - 21/10/1999 00:22
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board (+ethernet?)
[Re: pca]
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new poster
Registered: 06/07/1999
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
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Oddball thought; is there enough room for a simm socket on a Eurocard?
If so you could add a ucLinux simm (http://uclinux.org/simm/), this is a simm
with a processor running Linux, with 8MB ram, RS232 serial port, and 10BaseT ethernet.
Hence hook the RS232 up to the pic (or direct to the empeg), connect the
ucLinux simmm up to a network, and who needs usb :-)
It sounds rather too simple, so I'm sure I haven't thought of something!
Jim
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#5561 - 21/10/1999 02:08
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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journeyman
Registered: 19/09/1999
Posts: 97
Loc: Denmark, Kbh Ø
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What about getting empeg in on it and design an ver II of the radio with the strong*ARM 1100 + 1101 chip (maybe 1110 + 1111)
as the 11*1 chip has bild in USB host, two ps2, 2 serial, 1 parallel and a VGA (640,800,1024 in 8bit color)
the ver II coudt be using remote display and be placed in the back and there by ileminate the space problem (more space for the motherboad, HD and connections)
this model coudt be the fuctor in car system (WAP,GPS,GSM,SMS,VIDEO)
Mark
emaks rouls #10677
_________________________
Mark
wait for mk III with a USB Host/slave
(USB->GPS)(USB->Bluetooth)(USB->You name it)
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#5562 - 21/10/1999 05:10
Re: Exactly!
[Re: Clarke]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Err, seeing as it was Patrick & myself who designed the hardware in the first place, we're aware of the lack of "hacker-style" io on the empeg - but we couldn't put *everything* on there as it just jacks up the price for the vast majority of people who would never use the extra bits - hence the docking serial port.
Hugo
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#5563 - 24/11/1999 08:24
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Hi there Patrick, did you get anywhere with this? I am still interested...
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#5564 - 25/11/1999 06:30
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: schofiel]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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I have been so busy recently with the MkII PCB, plus some other OEM designs we've been working on, that I haven't
really had a chance to do much work on this board. I have pretty much decided to use the PIC16F877 microcontroller
instead, which has the same facilities as the 16C77, but is both noticeably cheaper and flash upgradeable. I'll finish
the design as soon as I have a chance.
Patrick
Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#5565 - 25/11/1999 06:56
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Excellent! Look forward to seeing the results of your work (when you have the time, of course).
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#5566 - 18/12/1999 07:34
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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veteran
Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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...any chance of adding a 12V--> 18V power convertor (to increase the empeg's base voltate), as well as a 18V --> 12V power convertor (for the amp's remote line)?
...proud to have one of the first Mark I units
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#5567 - 09/06/2000 07:44
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
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I would kill for a data acquisition card that I could run cabling all through the car. Infinite possibilities with this one...
Any idea on the price range yet?
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#5568 - 09/06/2000 17:07
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: Tim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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You'll have to drag Patrick away from his kit car before getting this out of him :-)
Rob
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#5569 - 10/06/2000 11:46
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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I am trying to gently coax him away at this very moment 
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#5570 - 12/06/2000 05:27
Re: Exactly!
[Re: altman]
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addict
Registered: 03/08/1999
Posts: 451
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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Hugo writes: In reply to:
... but we couldn't put *everything* on there as it just jacks up the price for the vast majority of people who would never use the extra bits - hence the docking serial port.
My brother and I have been considering the possibility of a chain of devices for specific purposes that would chain along the serial connection. Each box would basically recognise commands sent to it, and would pass data back to the empeg in its own packaged format, and would pass along any data that wasn't meant for it (i.e. not interfering with any other box).
Now, to me this means communications protocol. We know that there are various ASCII characters already used - F for forward, B for back, or something like that, yeah? Well, let's say my GPS box always precedes its commands with "/G", and commands sent to it are always prefixed by "\G". The software running on the empeg can recognise these characters and send the appropriate command to the relevant daemon; likewise, the daemon can send a message to the box easily enough.
The beauty of this system, IM(NSH)O, is that you can have a virtually unlimited number of boxes (as long as there's a modicum of control on the protocol side) and they don't interfere. Nor does the empeg need a separate interface for each box that someone might plug in. This, to my mind, means that the radio controller could even be one of these boxes, just plugged in through a standardised interface (and with aerial in and audio out to the correct inputs on the empeg).
Or has someone already thought of this?
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
_________________________
Owner of Mark I empeg 00061, now better than ever - (Thanks, Rod!) - and Karma 3930000004550
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#5571 - 12/06/2000 07:35
Re: Exactly!
[Re: PaulWay]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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For this you do need special serial hardware so you can use it in multidrop mode - this is what a lot of car changer busses do.
I did come up with an actual protocol to run over the serial port when docked - the single character commands were just a debug thing which people started to use. The protocol is much more extensible and rather more useful :)
Hugo
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#5572 - 16/06/2000 21:42
Re: Exactly!
[Re: altman]
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addict
Registered: 03/08/1999
Posts: 451
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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In reply to:
For this you do need special serial hardware so you can use it in multidrop mode - this is what a lot of car changer busses do.
Is that because you're running the one set of wires all the way along? I would have thought it would be better to have each unit with separate in and out ports so that each unit is acting like a local relay.
In reply to:
I did come up with an actual protocol to run over the serial port when docked - the single character commands were just a debug thing which people started to use. The protocol is much more extensible and rather more useful :)
I have to say that the enormous usefullness of this is enough to make me think all third party projects should put themselves on hold and sort out the specs of this. Yeah, we end up with a bus similar to all the other busses around (I wonder if we could have fiber... :-). But it's open API, open protocol, and that means it's much more flexible and much more usable than all the other proprietary car bus standards out there.
Think, people, think!
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
_________________________
Owner of Mark I empeg 00061, now better than ever - (Thanks, Rod!) - and Karma 3930000004550
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#5573 - 02/08/2000 20:38
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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new poster
Registered: 02/08/2000
Posts: 16
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Totally cool. I'd happily pay $60 for a PCB with a programmed PIC!
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#5574 - 09/08/2000 06:23
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: UncleSocks]
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journeyman
Registered: 06/07/2000
Posts: 91
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
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Ok, you got me interested but could someone please enlighten me what it is that you are talking about..? :) I think I have a picture about it but I just wanted to be sure before I start thinking of the possibilities..
Antti 'Amarth' Luostarinen
#14229
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#5575 - 13/09/2000 16:46
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: schofiel]
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journeyman
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 50
Loc: CALI
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*bump*
sort of intrested in seeing how far this idea got, ould be awesome if we could add on other componets such as gps and what not to directly interface with teh empeg. naybe even work out a cell based web like tracking system (ie im at work hop on the web issue a command to my empeg to have it fireup and start palying by the time i get to it.. or even sms message to my phone to do the same.. just kidna intrested in seeing the possiblitiys of an add on brain or so (i am not a guru..yet.. so i cant and wont recite off micro controller and chip #'s)
Im as confused as a babby in a topless bar...
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Im as confused as a baby in a topless bar...
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#5576 - 04/10/2000 07:14
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Given that Patrick seems to be mooching the boards again , does this mean that he is reading this and may now have time to try his hand at this I/O board?  One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#5577 - 04/10/2000 18:30
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: schofiel]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Given that Patrick seems to be mooching the boards again , does this mean that he is reading this and may now have time to try his hand at this I/O board? I've been very busy over the last few months, what with empeg related work and various medical problems (I won't go into details. Thank me for this  ), so I haven't had a lot of free time to spend on the IO board. However, I have been thinking about it, and the design is getting more universal. This is tech speak for insanely complicated. At some point in the relatively near future, when the current round of empeg designs dies down a little, I hope to come up with a firm set of specs for the thing, and I'll post them here for comment. patrick Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.
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Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#5578 - 04/05/2001 16:49
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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PATRICK! One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#5579 - 04/05/2001 17:26
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: schofiel]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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ROB!!
Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#5580 - 04/05/2001 19:50
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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MOTHER!!!!
(oh, hang on, this ain't the Freud BBS!! sorry!)
Geoff
---- -------
Got one of the first Mark 2 empegs...
_________________________
Geoff
---- -------
Mk1 Blue - was 4GB, now 16GB
Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
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#5581 - 05/05/2001 05:16
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: pca]
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enthusiast
Registered: 10/10/2000
Posts: 350
Loc: Copenhagen SW, Denmark
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(In order of importance)
- GPS-interface
- Keyboard interface
- Serial Out to a "dumb" display
- Cabriolet up/down detector
- CD-changer in
- CD-changer out
- Mobile phone serial port interface (or even Bluetooth interface! ((Yes, I have a bluetooth enabled phone))
- HAM radio TNC-interface, APRS?
- An interface that will produce a "beep" on the empeg-audio
- Ambient noice detector with volume or equalizer change
I'd pay at least 100$ for all this functionality :-)
I'd prefer a kit with all parts, but I could do the soldiering myself.
Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)
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#5582 - 05/05/2001 05:27
Re: empeg unit add-on IO board
[Re: jane]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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I'd prefer a kit with all parts, but I could do the soldiering myself.
Ah, the military is interested!
Patrick.
Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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