From: http://id.essortment.com/historyofpizza_rmgf.htm

In reply to:

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...Pizza spread to America, England, France and Spain very rapidly after its Italian birth. It was little-known in these respective countries, however, until World War Two. After occupying Italian territory, many American and European soldiers tasted pizza and brought the memory to their homeland. In America, Italian immigrants had been selling pizza in their stores, and the first pizzeria had been opened by Gennuardo Lombardi in 1905. The American GI’s popularized this feature of most Italian neighborhoods, drawing pizzerias out of Italian neighborhoods and into the hearts of every city in America. In fact, the square “Sicilian pizza” is an America invention! Real Sicilian pizza, made in Sicily, has no cheese and anchovies.

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"Speaking of that (and getting off-topic here, feel free to reply in the Off Topic forum), is Italian pizza significantly different than U.S. pizza?"
Tfabris (from another post in the general forum)

That depends on whats considered "American Pizza".
In my mind Dominos, and Pizza Hut aint it.
Total bastardizations of the original.
Pizza should not have an inch thick crust unless its the sicilian variety, in which case it should be slightly doughy.
And pizza should NEVER have extra cheese baked into the crust. Just what Americans need, more cheese.

Unfortunately with the prevelance of these chains I'm afraid that they are becoming what people consider "American Pizza" which is a shame.

A traditional hand made pizza can be such a treat. Whenever I move to a new city one of the first things I do is seek out the local pizza place, and try them out. Right now in Boston the best I've found is The Same Old Place in Jamaica Plain. Great Pizza hand made by a family of italians in a small storefront.
mmm tasty...

I grew up in NYC (unoffical Pizza capital of the US) and I guess I'm somewhat of a pizza purist/snob.
Oh well...

Ill step off the soap box now.


Z~

Actually, in the 30 minute micro-research I did to post that, it noted that Boston and New York have had a long standing pizza rivally (being from the MidWest, I always thought Chicago and New York were the only rivals..). The Boston style is described as having a thin dough in the middle and thick crust around the edges.. that would explain your distain for it!

From: http://www.ultradave.com/pizzahistory.htm

In reply to:

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Italians baegan to bring their pizza recipes to the United States in the 1800s, and pizza began showing up on the menus of restaurants and bakeries in Boston, New York, and Chicago. Perhaps most important in the history of pizza was the evolution of the Boston style pizza. A Boston style pizza has thin crust in the middle, a thick edge of around the outside, a combination of mozzarella and white cheddar cheese, and a tomato based sauce that is hard to match outside of Boston. "MMMM GOOD!" Why was the Boston pizza so important? It was important because I would have been stuck with New York pizza if the Boston pizza did not evolve. (I do my part to maintain the rivalry.)

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EDIT:

and from: http://members.aol.com/GLilli/piz.html

In reply to:

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Pizza supply houses began to emerge providing dough, sauce and toppings to the pizzerias. They fulfilled the need for consistency and reduced labor cost, at the expense of high quality ingredients. Consequently, all pizza began to taste the same because all the pizzerias began to use the same manufacturers.

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I thought we agreed a long time ago that we wouldn't discuss pizza in any forum including OT.

Too divisive.

Pizza good.

Me want.

> Real Sicilian pizza, made in Sicily, has no cheese and anchovies.

I had always heard that Italian pizza doesn't include cheese, but when you order a pizza in Italy nowadays, it definitely includes it. I didn't go as far south as Sicily, but every pizza I ordered from Venice, Florence, and Rome all had cheese. And most of the places I went had more Italians that tourists in them.

All in all I found it to be a little bit different, but not so much as to make it a new beast. The spices they used were different, and sometimes they used some cheeses that I thought were a little odd. The bread was also a little different, and they make it pretty thin. Of course the cutting is entirely up to you. The toppings they choose were quite odd. One place I went has sliced hot dogs (no lie) on their pizza.

Whatever you do, don't order pepperoni. It means peppers over there and I got burned once (almost literally) in doing so. Some would say if you want pepperoni order the spicy proscuitto (sp?) but I found it to not be even close.

I have, on occasion, found pizza in the states that was damn close though. If you go to enough Italian resteraunts you will find something that is petty similiar.

Right now in Boston the best I've found is The Same Old Place in Jamaica Plain. Great Pizza hand made by a family of italians in a small storefront. mmm tasty...

Aaaah, a nostalgia moment. I lved about 5 blocks away from TSOP from '78-'87. My reference pizza joint is actually the admittedly modest hole-in-the-wall Pino's in Cleveland Circle (may they never change!).

I grew up in NYC (unoffical Pizza capital of the US) and I guess I'm somewhat of a pizza purist/snob.

In understand. I commuted to NYC in '99 for 6 months and loved that aspect (a place called Suttons Pizza on 1st Ave around 63rd, particularly). I get a bit grumpy about pizza because it's so hard to find here in the Northwest.

I've had pizza in Italy and it was pretty good, but not anywhere near my ideal (if you need a fork, it ain't what I'd call pizza). On the other hand, there's something uniquely evocative about eating oven-baked pizza in a cafe about 50 feet away from where Gironolamo Savonarola was burned at the stake!

Ill step off the soap box now.

I was kidding about the divisive nature of pizza. I think it *is* possible to discuss civilly -- as long as no [censored] mentions pineapple!

Pineapple.

You just couldn't resist could you?

Pineapple has no business being anywhere near a pizza...

My favourite ever pizza place is in Sheffield, England. I think it is actually run by a bunch of Greeks, but they make the best (and strangely cheapest) pizza I have ever had. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately for my waist line) I now live 200 miles away so they no longer deliver.

Oh and it's called "Nibbles Pizza".

Pine [censored] .

Oh, [censored], I just knew it! Here I was trying to be civil about the whole pizza thing and the Rapid Response Team has to stick his thumb in my eye by mentioning the P-word. The P-word, dammit. (OK, I can only blame myself. I had to go and mention the damn P-word).

But that won't stop me! The oven mitts are off!

Fabris, Ima calling yooooo out!

Virtual pepperoncini at 50 nanometers!

...the P-word...

Oh, come on! Hawaiian pizza has got to be just about the best that there is! I love it. Gimme more!

mmmmm.....

//matt

Hawaiian pizza

Arrrrrgh.

Give it to me straight: Are you really from Massachusetts or are you just part of Fabris' West Coast Pizza 5th Column?

Are you really from Massachusetts...?

born and raised my friend. I do love Hawaiian pizza, but don't get me wrong, I'll eat anything.

//matt

Ok, now the word to a REAL italian

Real pizza is the Pizza Margherita: it is made like all pizza of a thin layer of paste, covered by a layer of tomatoes (better if roughly cutted) and NOT cheese, but Italian Mozzarella. It is then flavored with only two spices: basil and origan.

In our market I see some boxes with 'American Pizza' written on it... ok it is not the real pizza! It has on it almost everything!!! Pizza is not a piece of bread covered with all comestibles you found in kitchen: it must have a precise flavour!

BTW for the types of pizza the base is always the same, then changes the 'top' ingredients: sicilian has normally caper and olives, napoletana has caper and anchovies, diavola (devily) has spicy salame, prosciutto e funghi has ham and mushrooms, and so on...
I can't remember as an usual pizza, one with pepperoni - however, you could ask to the 'pizzaiolo' to make one special for you

I f you have any other questions, feel free to ask... we have not as many technology as US, but in the 'pizza range' there is no equal

Oh, and if someone of the BBS people will come to Italy, let me know! I will take you to eat a very special pizza

Stefano, what part of Italy are you from? Does that make a difference (like in the toppings used) because I didn't see any while I was there.

> NOT cheese, but Italian Mozzarella

Perhaps I am being dense, but isn't Mozzarella cheese?

> It is then flavored with only two spices: basil and origan.

They use quite a bit more of both than most places in the states.

I truly enjoyed the Italian food (and Italy in general), especially since I had just come from France where you can't find anything decent to eat from an American's viewpoint short of french bread and funky cheese.

especially since I had just come from France where you can't find anything decent to eat from an American's viewpoint short of bread and cheese.

Whoa. Just which France did you visit???

> Whoa. Just which France did you visit???

Haha, OK, maybe others like that stuff the French call food, I am not a fan. And I swear, Paris has less non-native food restaurants of any other major city in Europe or America, so you are not given much of a choice.

I'm from Arezzo, near Florence, Tuscany (central Italy) - the city of Roberto Benigni's "Life is beautiful" - do you know?
Yeah there's differences in making pizza from north to south italy, but it's all far from the american one
At very south Italy, they tend to made it more thick and soft; at north and centre instead we tend to made it more thin and crispy. BTW at Naples (capital of pizza) they have both thin and thick type of pizza.

Mozzarella is a particular type of cheese, but it's better for pizza. On 95% of pizza you find a like-mozzarella melting cheese that is not so good like the real one.

I agree with you about french food: I was in there three times for visiting Euro Disneyland and can't find any decent food to eat

And I swear, Paris has less non-native food restaurants of any other major city in Europe or America

Hmmmm. There sure are enough Thai, Italian, Chinese and <fill in the blank> places, but in Europe I would have given that award to London (limited experience, though). I'd almost guess that NYC, LA, Chicago, San Fran would beat Paris, too, but then there's maybe a problem with defining what qualifies as "native" American food. OK, if we count the Burger Kings my analysis is doomed!

I'm no gourmet, but *lots* of great chow in France, Paris included, though perhaps Paris isn't the most balanced example of that. Italy? Great food. Best food I've ever had? Barcelona and thereabouts.

> I'm from Arezzo, near Florence, Tuscany (central Italy) - the city of Roberto Benigni's "Life is beautiful" - do you know?

I went to Florence, but did not have an opportunity to visit the Tuscany countryside, though I hear it is beautiful.

> Mozzarella is a particular type of cheese, but it's better for pizza.

Mozerella is the standard cheese that Americans use for Pizza too, though perhaps it is not quite identical, because it sure tasted different to me.

All-in-all, I found it more similiar than different than some American pizza, at least the stuff you can get from Italian restraunts here. Pizza Hut doesn't count.

> in Europe I would have given that award to London (limited experience, though).

I found London to be quite cosmopolitan. You can find every kind of food in great quantities there. For instance, I tried Ethiopian food there, which I never even heard of before. Didn't like it all that much, but there were several restaurants there.

> I'd almost guess that NYC, LA, Chicago, San Fran would beat Paris, too

I live in L.A., and I swear this city can not be beat for food. Even leaving out Mexican food, which could be argued is the native food food of L.A. nowadays, there are just tons of different communities here and lots of restaurants for each one.

> Best food I've ever had? Barcelona and thereabouts.

Never been there, it is certainly on my list though. I hear it is a party city.

OK, now on to the next topic:

American mexican food or Mexican mexican food?

Pizza is an (North) American dish. If you had ordered pizza in Italy ~30-years ago, you would have been served olive oil on bread (no cheese or tomato sauce). Because their dairy and produce is much better than the mass produced cr_p they sell here in the US, their current pizzas are fantastic.

BTW - The burrito is also American.

What's American Mexican food? Taco Bell? I'll pass.

I think I prefer the original, though hard shell tacos are pretty good, which of course is not a true Mexican dish. Though not from Taco Bell of course.

I spent 2 weeks in the mountains in central mexico. A town called Tlaxco.
While there I was served Gusano's on tortillas with peppers and sausage. Know what a Gusano is? Check the attachment.

They were tasty though.


Z~

Heres an even more graphic one.
Just in case you were still curious...

Fresh out of the plant, into the fire, onto a tortilla, and into my mouth.

Z~

Dude, there was a worm in your nacho. Maybe you should go on Fear Factor......

Maybe next time 'round Ill tell you about "Pulque".
It's alcoholic!


Z~

I really don't think I could handle eating bugs. Who knows, never tried them. Then again a cheeseburger from Mc Donnads is probobly just as untastefull IMO.

-Greg

This thread has taken an ugly turn.

I'm not telling you this Stefano, this is for everyone else... I've eaten Pizza (and derivatives) in a few cities in Italy. But apart from that, I also know a bit about food in general.

Mozzarella - *REAL* mozzarella, isn't the typical "cheese" most Americans would think of. First, you could be talking about buffalo milk. Next you could be talking about FRESH. Not that slab in a plastic shrink-wrap that looks like any other Kraft product. The US also doesn't have some of the cheese selection available in other countries due to its pasturization requirements.

In Toronto you can get Pizza at any number of places that is pretty much the same as you could get in many places in Italy. There are all the same garbage fast-food places as in the US of course.

Damn, in Firenze (Florence), I had a calzone with an entire mozzarella inside (at least the size of a baseball). And that was my second plate. My first was an enormous platter of gnochi (mmm!) with a side of beans (hey, you have to have them when you're in the region). Needless to say, I didn't finish the calzone.

If you want to sample the best foods from all nationalities in one place, there is absolutely no other place on earth to do it other than New York City. The second best for variety would probably be Toronto. You can find "authentic" in some US cities, but you have to look very carefully. Even in NYC. And certainly in Boston (though their Italian neighborhood has some excellent restaurants). Toronto has a fresh-enough supply of immigrants that you can get pretty much exactly what they're making in whatever country, the same way it's being made that same month.

Oh, and in Italy (or just plain in Italian), if you want anything similar to American Pepperoni, you're looking for a type of "sausage". So your best bet is to ask for that: "salsiccia." But why bother. You can get so many other things. Just remember, when in Italy, KEEP IT SIMPLE. Italian food is about simplicity. They're just going to look at you funny if you want everything but the kitchen sink in a dish.

Bruno

I pity the fool that eats any of that Prego or Ragu crap.

Why do you hate the US? Don't deny it either. It's obvious that you despise American culture. I'm not talking about what you said specifically in this post but your attitude in general. Is there a reason?

Maybe because the US is very hate-able. I don't see any reason why he shouldn't hold us in utter contempt.

That's OK, though, since Canada's not a real country anyway.

But for what?

Arrogance. Look into your own soul, my son.

And just how am I arrogant?

And just how am I arrogant?

No, he was answering your question. Americans in general, and pretty much our whole nation, is quite arrogant.

Don't you just love so-called 'Americans' who hate America?

If anyone doesn't like it they can leave.

//matt

Hey, I never said I hated America. I just said I understand how others could. We can be really irritating sometimes.

I think that there is a perceived arrogance so some people begin to resent americans. But I believe that your average working american is just like the guy busting his ass in Italy, England, Uzbekistan, or whatever. I think gratefull would better describe many americans. Look at your neighbor; is he an arrogant prick or just your average joe?

Americans in general, and pretty much our whole nation, is quite arrogant

[heavy sarcasm] and apparently some Canadians too. [/heavy sarcasm]

//matt

Arrogant prick, but, then, so am I.

Hey, I never said I hated America

yeah, but did you look at the link? Seriously, I'm starting to think about moving, it looks pretty good.

//matt

Actually, I was calling him arrogant. Most citizens of the United States are, myself included. We're brought up in a very isolated society, where we think the only differences we really bear are the differences between a Southerner and a Yankee. This is a remarkably limited view of the world, and leads to seeing everyone else as backward, or at least forgetting that they might have different viewpoints. I try to contain it, but fail often. Yz33d (what is that supposed to mean, BTW?) falls into it in almost every post. I first thought he was a troll, but his continued existence here would seem to indicate otherwise. He seems to honestly believe that everything that comes out of his mouth is of utmost importance, and seems unable to comprehend others' viewpoints. That, to me, is the definition of arrogance.

Then again, I assume that you have any interest in hearing this, which you don't.

You're point is hypocritical. While you don't want to hear anything I have to say you claim that I don't want to hear other people's opinions, which is untrue. You just imagine the arrogance when you read my posts, perhaps going back to The Future of Empeg.

It isn't obvious what Yz33d means?

You don't seem to have anything to say, yet you think you do. That is my point. The other people on this board are too nice to call you out by name (it's been done pseudo-anonymously before), and I was, but I'm tired of holding my tongue. The vast majority of your posts are very self-serving -- you remind me of the bad comic who laughs at his own jokes while no one else does. I'm not interested in what you have to say because you have nothing useful or interesting to offer; at least you haven't shown me that you do, and you've racked up quite a few posts. And I didn't say that you didn't want to hear others' opinions, but it's true that you seem to only want to hear them so that you can either reassure your own unreasonable self-assuredness, or merely end up backpedalling.

I'm not really interested in this pissing match. It's pointless and only serves my own base interests, but I was tired of not saying anything. I just really wish that I had a plonk file.

And it's not at all obvious to me what ``Yz33d'' means. Maybe I'm just not up on 31337-sp33k, but google returns no references to ``yz33d'', and the only references it has to ``yzeed'' are in Arabic languages, and given your earlier stated prejudices against American aliens, I'm going to guess that that is not an appropriate etymology.

By the way, ``Your point is hypocritical ...''.

Bitt, you're letting him bait you. Don't.

Agreed, I forget how many times I have got half way through writing a reasoned reply to our friend here, before realising there was no point and binning it...

We just hold everyone in contempt including ourselves. It's very fair that way.

Rob

Americans in general, and pretty much our whole nation, is quite arrogant.

They is quite ungrammatical, too. Boo yakasha.

Peter

Jeeez Yz33d! There's Patriotism and there's ... .... there's ... ... .. well I can't quite find a word for what you have.
Hyperpatriotism. There hasn't been one thread you've read where someone has a friendly dig at America (Which should incidentally only be referred to as United States if you're talking about the northern bit below Canada). You wouldn't last two minutes in a Aussie pub if you were an Australian Citizen. Someone makes a dig at your homeland and you take it as a personal attack.
Lighten up a bit and roll with the jokes. In 2.5 years on this board I have never seen so many flare ups. You're refusal to accept the bad points of you homeland along with the good points is (IMO) disturbing.
I personally wouldn't want to live any place but Australia at the moment. But I don't defend it's actions, customs and history to the hilt.

I personally wouldn't want to live any place but Australia at the moment. But I don't defend it's actions, customs and history to the hilt.

I should hope not - you guys were responsible for Neighbours!

Rob

And all that sheep rustling, which is how they ended up being sent there in the first place.

British justice has always been so reasonable, steal a sheep, get shipped to the other side of the world for the rest of your life.

On the other hand - the Minogue sisters - yum...

Sorry, we are still on the Edible thread, aren't we?

I know it isn't very purist, but I make my own pizzas (yup, including rolling my own dough) and am happy to put almost anything on them: Chillies, as many as 8 different cheeses, beans, sausages, chicken, beef etc etc etc

Some taste terrible, but you have to test these things. Most end up being very good. And filling.

Never tried Kylie on a pizza though, could be messy.

On the other hand - the Minogue sisters - yum...

Kylie has a sister?! Oooooooo.... Is she out of beta?

Kylie has a sister?! Oooooooo.... Is she out of beta?

Very much so! She's 31. I'm sure she could still benefit from some further testing, however.

http://www.danniminogue.com/biography.htm

yikes! droool...

I can't figure out if I like the "Can't Get You Outta My Head" song because of the video or not.. but I can't get that damn SONG outta my head! Her sister is much hotter in my opinoin... any good music? Or are these more of the "look but don't listen" variety ala Britney Spears?

Pizza.

This BBS strays more than my 89' Escort with a bad alignment!

I kinda like some Kylie Minogue tunes, even when not accompanied by a video. "Breathe" is a nice dance-ish tune that I've spun at parties on occasion. I would say that either her or her producers have more talent than Britney or her producers.

As for looks, you can't really compare, because the Minogue's are in their 30's and Britney is 18. I personally would not kick Danni, Kylie, or Britney out of my bed.

Well then, I am sorry.

Oh Bruno, you have explained very well how things are - I'm not able to translate some things so I give up after twenty minutes thinking at it

Moreover, I dont' think someone knows about calzone! It's my favourite 'type' of pizza. The simple one has mozzarella and cooked ham inside, and tomato sauce on top.

For the rest, you're right on mozzarella and simplicity - I have to check well what 'rest of the world' guys intends for 'pepperoni'...

It's a good thing I can only see you using that logo on one of your posts. Because, guess what? It very easy for me to change that graphic to something else that might not be so flattering next to your name (not that it matters because you obviously don't have the nads to put up any real info anyway). Don't force me to chase down your ISP to file a complaint of misappropriation of copyright and bandwidth theft.

BTW, I don't hate the US. Some of my favourite cities are in the US. NYC & Boston... I even have family in the US. But, feel free to take away with you whatever impression you'd like.

Bruno

I am a bit of an NYC snob myself, as I usually spend my summers there. You can find decent pizza at almost every corner.
However, I have a deep appreciation for Applewood's in Menlo Park CA. It is a different kind of pizza, like none I have ever encountered (I think the crispy-chewy crust is key to its elusiveness). Absolutely amazing, if you live on the peninsula it is worth the trip - plus they have an amazing selection of great German beers. You might run into me there on my weekly trip with my buddies!

It isn't obvious what Yz33d means?

Is it an anagram for 'Total and Complete a55hole' ?

Her sister is much hotter in my opinoin... any good music?

Dannii Minogue now has a hitsingle in Europe. The first one I can think of, though I've known her for longer (don't remember what from though)

The track is called : "Riva Featuring Dannii Minogue - Who Do You Love Now? (Stringer)". I'm sure you can find it on Kazaa or something. I did, and then I bough it on CD (see ? The system works! )
I already like this track better that anything Kylie has ever made. (and I did like "can't get you out of my head" )

OK, On behalf of the Australian public, I'm wholeheartedly sorry for Neighours, Home and Away and all the other crappy soaps we've inflicted upon the world.

As far as sheep rustlin', we did that when we got here. To GET her we just stole bread and other daily things.

Kylie has definately gotten better over the years in music and in looks (sorry for her version of 'The Locomotion' though). Danii hasnt quite got the talent in singing and career management even they both went through neighbours.

I thought Danii was in Home and Away ?

Apology accepted.

I have to say that Kylie has done a reasonable job with her musical career, and over the years has turned herself from a talentless wannabe into a creditable artist. I don't own any of her music as it's not my cup of tea, but I'll give credit where it is due...

Danni doesn't have much more than looks going for her. I remember she played at an Aussie-themed ball at the University of Southampton in the early 90s to about 12 people, while Rolf Harris packed the same room later in the evening.

Mind you, that in itself isn't necessarily indication of failure. The Students' Union records mention a band played in the Engineers' Ball of 1969, "....to 20 very bored and drunk students". The band????

Pink Floyd.

This reminds me of the line in "South Park - The Movie" where the Canadian goverment mentions that they have repeatedly made formal appologies for releasing Bryan Adams to the public. hehe

We DO thank you for Fosters (even though the sludge we get in the States is made in Canada. Canada makes WONDERFUL beer, but I have issues with Fosters being marketed as "Australian") and of course for Elle MacPherson - the love of my junior-high years. Crocodyle Hunter is amusing as well. What else.. the Holden cars are sweet and Natalie Imbruglia isn't too bad too look at lately - as much as I hated her big hit (or more accurately - hated hearing it 20 times a day).

Bitt, I don't have spell check on this machine, so please make this one exception.

Like I said before, he's an unintentional troll

Best pizza in my opinion-

South Beach (Miami)

Pizza Rustica.

Niiiiiiiice stuff there.

Hi.

I was just about to write down that warning about not ordering "pepperoni" pizza if you expect what is called pepperoni in the US.
If you want that sort of pizza, order a "salami" pizza.
Prosciutto is actually ham. And the traditional cheese used on pizza is mozarella.

Also, if you don't like hot (hmm, spicy) pizza, you shouldn't order a pizza "diavolo" either (my favorite, at least when eaten at my favorite pizzeria: tomatoe, ham, salami/pepperoni, mushroom and pepperoni/peppers and of course mozarella).

Anyway, almost any (good) pizzeria will comply with your wishes for toppings as long as they have the required ingredients.

On a more historical note: The first pizza was _not_ created by an italian, but by some german speaking chef (don't remember wether he was from austria or bavaria) that wanted to mimik the italian national flag to some extend, when cooking for an italian statesman. The white dough (or the mozarella cheese, depending on the historical source) , the red tomatoes and the green herbs (actually only basil and, according to some sources: parsley). So yes, todays Pizza Magheritta is the closest you get to the original pizza.

cu,
sven

And the Iron Maiden gig at the Ayr Pavilion (The Piv) sometime in the mid eighties I think. Not quite a stadium:)

Oh Yeah. Sorry about Fosters. It's Australia's largest exported beer. Coz we won't drink it here. If you want to insult an Aussie overseas, buy them a slab of Fosters. Sorry. We'd much prefer a local brew anytime.

Croc Hunter has only just started playing over here. Can't stand the show myself. The guy is far too intense for his own good. Yes, the MacPhersons are ours, all ours. Keep off.

Sorry to refugees trying to come to our country. You actually would be better off where you are.

Your beer story reminds me of Mexican Corona beer. It seems everyone in the US thinks this stuff is gold. It is actually the cheapest, worst beer in Mexico. The Mexicans won't drink it. It just amazes me how many people drink this swill just because it remind them of spring break or becuase they sponsor volley ball games! I hate that stuff! I'd rather drink Dos Equis or something. Of course... I don't trust any beer that comes in a clear bottle anyway. Except for New Castle. I really dig that beer for some reason. Maybe I just prefer a beer that you can't see through... whether it be the fault of the bottle or beer, I don't care! Most American beer is so bad that we have to drink it so cold that ice almost forms.

We were lucky to have a micro beer movement about 10 years ago in the US that resulted in scores of local pubs.

Anybody remember Pfeiffer beer? check my site (very old and not updated) www.PFeifferbeer.com

(echoes of the standard dialogue: "Tiene usted Dos Equis obscura?"..."No, senor. Solamante Corona o Pacifico")

It is actually the cheapest, worst beer in Mexico.

Oh, with Sol and Pacifico in the running, I'd say it's a three-way tie.

The Mexicans won't drink it.

Why, that's not so. Like Bud, some folks like it. Go figure. Plus, like Bud, Corona and Sol distributors can have some bars and beachfront bars and restaurants locked up. It's Corona or ...or something.

Plus, light, inconsequential pilsner has its place if drunk very cold in a very hot place. Hell, I spent a hot week on a boat in the Bahamas drinking *Busch* of all things, yet I was quite happy. It was the right tool for the job.

Mmm - can't beat a VB in Australia, or a Paulaner in Munich.
Forget all the hyped marketing-led brands and go for something like an Orkney Dark Island, for hand to hand combat, or Skullsplitter Ale, which is an ale for laying down and avoiding.

Jim,

Couldn't agree with you more on that. There certainly is a time and a place for a light Pilsner. I prefer dark, heavy beers, but usually only in the winter. Then I switch to Rolling Rock or something .

What do you mean "locked up"?

There is no such thing as the perfect beer. Only the perfect beer for that situation. Thank God we have so many options!

I prefer dark, heavy beers, but usually only in the winter.

Yes, the last of this year's Sierra Nevada Celebration disappeared from the shelves at the end of January, but a few six-packs of Pyramid Snow Cap are hanging on...

What do you mean "locked up"?

In the U.S. you certainly see places like airport bars, franchise restaurants, and even neighborhood restaurants with a limited number of taps and cooler space where the choices are Bud and Bud Light (Oh, and maybe Killians for the "dark beer!!). Beer distributors still market pretty aggressively, but I don't know if they're allowed by to negotiate "exclusive" contracts the way they used to (I'll lock in a great discount on Angst Lager, so long as it's the only beer you serve).

In Mexico (and some trips to Puerto Vallarta are my only recent experience) I don't know what the trade laws are like, but it sure looks like they allow exclusives or at least serious promotional deals. I've had that "Dos Equis obscura" conversation 30 or 40 times at various beach bars where Sol or Corona banners and sun umbrellas are flying and where the only beers available are what's on the umbrellas.

Mexicans won't drink Corona because they know that the Mexicans bottling it are pissing in it. At least that's what a Mexican told me.

Even if thats not true, It sure smells like it, Corona to me is worst than the Beast

There are many excellent Mexican beers out there. I just don't care for Coronna. The "pissing in the bottle" sounds like a story I would have clung to and passed along when I was in middle school. I'll take a Dos Equis at an authentic Mexican restaurant any day please (with a meal to match!)!

Dos Equis is very good indeed, and if you ever get the chance try a Modelo Especial, its very smooth in its self.

Is that why you have to cover up the taste with a lime??????

LOL

Calvin

Pepperoni, in the US, are not what we call here "peperoni" (which are "Peppers" in english). They are "salame piccante" or just "salame" in Italy. I guess for some reason "peperoni" turned into "pepperoni" in the us and ended up meaning something totally different, or maybe that comes from a different word or language. As a matter of fact, Stefano, if you're in the US and ask for a pepperoni pizza you get una pizza al salame piccante Dont' complain and pay more attention to language differences ;D

I had a chinese beer once. Very sweet and strong.

American-Italian Pepperoni is not exactly Salame Picante though (unless you're thinking of a very specific type, and not just Hot Salami which encompases many varieties). It's not hot or overly-spicy (not as indicated by the normal usage of "Picante" anyway). It's not the same thing as putting some Genoa (Genovese, Venetian, etc..) Salami on a Pizza. American Pepperoni is a cured sausage (salsiccia, but not cruda - it's thin diameter compared to a Salame). Similar, but not anywhere near as good as, Portuguese chouriço and Spanish chorizo (Mexican too, but there is nothing better, anywhere, than Portuguese). Chorizo can be mild or spicy and made more ways than I can count (there are a few staple and very well known varieties). I guess it's slightly similar to some forms of salami, but not any good ones.

And a note about something way back in the thread... Proscuitto vs. "Ham." They're both the same part of the pig. As a matter of fact, using only the single word in Italian, it means the same thing. That is, what is called Prosciutto in Italy, in the US is HAM. In the US what will be called "Proscuitto" is actually "Prosciutto Crudo" (as in Raw Ham). It is cured/smoked, not cooked. It's dark and you can always see the fat when you slice it. "Ham" as in the cold-cut meat, is cooked ham - that's why it's pink. In some other languages the distinction is easier: For example in Portuguese you have Presunto and Fiambre (Prosciutto Crudo & Prosciutto, aka Prosciutto and Ham). BTW, the best Prosciutto in the world, again, Italian and Portuguese. Accept no substitutes. The same can probably be said for Ham too.

Oh, and ham in any way, shape or form, sucks on Pizza by comparison to all sorts of other good things you can put on it.

Bruno

If you think Corona is bad, try a Labatt Blue sometime. It's not as revolting as a Bud, but it's pretty sick garbage.

Bruno

I had a chinese beer once. Very sweet and strong.

And in which state or country did this prosecutable misdemeanor offense occur?

Canada is just a 30 minute drive from me. The beer there is WAY differant than what gets exported to us. Bastards! hehe j/k My favorite has been something called "Keiths" (i think) that I got at a small pub (Kildare House sp?). My friend keeps insisting it is local Canadian brew, but I insist it is Irish. It is an ale I believe. The place was weird too. It was like an Irish style pub, but filled with Scotts.

As far as mainstream beer, I like Molson Canadian. I asked for a "Molson Canadian" at a Windsor bar (Sitting Bull), and the guy made fun of me. "You mean a Canadian?!" he kept saying. I wouldn't blame most Windsorites for hating Detroit area Americans though. I swear most of us can be assholes when we visit (for the 19 year old drinking requirement). I'm glad I wasn't a part of that!

Tony, you crack me up!

33: I think most Chinese beer is made from rice. I think I've only seen it around here in these giant cans! In contrast, most American beer uses a lot of corn as an adjunct or filler.

You're going to get strange looks if you use the name of the brewer when asking for anything from Molson or Labatt. You ask just for a "Canadian" or a "Blue" (well, again, you actually should never "ask" for a "blue" )

Keiths is Canadian as far as I know. It's probably Alexander Keith's. It's from Nova Scotia. I've never tried it. I'll give it a try the next time I have beer.

I was never a big beer drinker - can't stand carbonation. But I'm getting used to it. Mainly because it was a lot easier to dance with a beer bottle in hand than with a mixed drink or a glass of wine. But I definitely prefer draught - you just have to drink enough of it so it doesn't slosh out of the glass while you dance.

I had a nice combo while in SF at an Irish pub. It was a Cider with Guiness on top. They didn't mix (different densities - very cool, like an enormous B52). Tipping it back, the Guiness would stay on top, so you'd still be drinking both at once. Can't remember what the combo is called.

Quebec has some very good beer too (I quite like La Fin Du Monde - 9%). And obviously you can get plenty of good stuff here in Ontario as well - especially if you stay away from Labatt and Molson commercial brands. Take a look at www.beer.com and use their beer finder.

Bruno

I just thought that if I asked for a Canadian in Canada it'd be like asking for a person or something. hehe

The Keiths I drank was on tap and because of this, had very little carbonation. I agree, I don't like too much carbonation. Just enough to give it a good head.

You're going to get strange looks...

I get strange looks no matter how I ask for a beer. Well, I just get a lot of strange looks...

I had a nice combo while in SF at an Irish pub. It was a Cider with Guiness on top. They didn't mix (different densities - very cool, like an enormous B52).

That would be a variation on a "Black and Tan" - essentially, some Guiness-like substance laid in on top of whatever lighter draught that comes to hand. Very pretty. And it can be tasty!

Yes, there are dozens of different salami piccanti (Plural.Singular is "salamE piccantE". Not to be picky, just thought ppl in here might be interested in proper spelling and pronunciation ), you're right. However, I would say that what I tasted in the US as "pepperoni" falls in that large category. I actually tasted US pepperoni several times in several places, both east and west coast , but I admit I do not know exactly what it is and it may very well be classified as a "salsiccia", technically , which, for those who don't know, is slightly different from salame. Consider, however, that the boundary between salsiccia a and salame does not really exists, since it varies from region to region within Italy itself, and both salame and salsiccia are names that include a very large variety of different things.

"I was never a big beer drinker - can't stand carbonation"

but proper beer has no carbonation It's only the new fangled ones which do. The traditional beers had a nozzle on the hand puller which allowed air in to produce a head.

No don't worry, I'm not getting on my real ale soapbox - in general I slightly prefer the lager beers.

Talking of enormous B52's, a Canadian (person not beer) I used to work with introduced me to the Ghostbuster - a double B52 in a small glass depthcharged into a pint containing triple bourbon and coke. Obviously has to be downed in one gulp before curdling ensues

I had a nice combo while in SF at an Irish pub. It was a Cider with Guiness on top. They didn't mix (different densities - very cool, like an enormous B52). Tipping it back, the Guiness would stay on top, so you'd still be drinking both at once. Can't remember what the combo is called.

'round here, that's referred to as a "black velvet". here's the rundown on half/half combos:

black 'n tan: guiness and bass
half 'n half: guiness and harp
black velvet: guiness and cider
snakebite: harp and cider
bassbite: bass and cider

more folks seem to order black 'n tans, half 'n half, or snakebites than the others.

--dan.

In reply to:

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I think most Chinese beer is made from rice.<snip> In contrast, most American beer uses a lot of corn as an adjunct or filler.

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many american "beers" use rice as an adjunct as well...

in fact, i believe anheuser-busch is america's largest single consumer of rice...
--
sancho

BTW, the best Prosciutto in the world, again, Italian and Portuguese. Accept no substitutes. The same can probably be said for Ham too.

Hey! I take exception with that. I cannot get through a whole week without my dosage of salt and fat known as country ham. This is one of the many reasons I could never move away from the south. No Bojangle's, Hardee's, or Biscuitville at which to get a quick fix. Can you even get country hams in other parts of the country at grocery stores? They might be called Virginia Hams or Smithfield Hams.

As traditionally Black & Tan is Guiness and Bass, there are a few companies I have noticed that make a black and tan and bottle it. The only one I have tried is the one from Michelob and well as figured it just doesn't stand up to it,

It was at a chinese restaurant in the US. The owners were too nice to ask to see my ID.

Chorizo (mexican blood sausage) can be very, very good or very bad. I wandered around Tijuana eating that stuff. I can't think of it on a pizza though. With eggs, or in a burrito, mmmmm!! yum!

Calvin

The Spanish Chorizo I have always had is not a blood sausage, just smoked pork an spices. It gets it's color by all the paprika they use to make it. I make a mean Chorizo, vegetable and bean stew.

The range of Chorizo available in Spain is staggering, I nearly fainted when I came across the 4 metre long bay dedicated to Choriza in a large supermarket in Huelva...

Sounds delicious!

I'll have to visit Spain at some point. :-D

Calvin

BTW, the best Prosciutto in the world, again, Italian and Portuguese. Accept no substitutes. The same can probably be said for Ham too.

Ah, I beg to differ! Prosciutto from Dalmatinska Zagora (a mountainous part of Croatia, just behind the first Adriatic coastal mountain range) can be easily compared to that from, say, Parma (though it is a bit different; that from Istria is almost identical). The meat is either dry-salted of kept in brine (regional difference), pressed, briefly smoked in *cold* smoke from several kinds of wood and aromatic herbs, and, most importantly, dried in bora, a cold, dry wind. During clear, sunny winter days with strong bora one can see those hams hanging from the trees.

In Slavonia (flat region neighbouring Hungary) they make excellent smoked ham. It can either be briefly boiled or, much better, coated in bread dough and baked. We are also good with Salame Picante-like sausages (as are, say, Hungarians), but Slavonian 'kulen' is unique. The only ingredients are best pork (essentially ham), salt, paprika and garlic, and it is stuffed exclusively in pork appendix. A kilogram easily fetches $30-$40 at the site of manufacture. Mmmm, time to raid the fridge!