A while back, I posted a replacement for the Anna Vu visual's background. It looked like this:



The problem is, when I created it, I was basing it on a sliced-up image of a larger VU meter that had a different sweep for the needles than the visual. So on this meter, the numbers are essentially meaningless.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what the numbers SHOULD read on this scale, in order to be accurate?

I'd like it to simulate an analogue VU meter where it is allowed to go over 0dB. I mean, no one is going to use this to callibrate anything are they?

It currently does that (0's about the middle), but I don't know much about analog VU meters, so I don't know what the other numbers mean.

+3 dB should be the point where the needle pegs. 0dB would be where the color starts to change. I'm charging up my camera - we have some meters here.

I love this idea.
this is my favorite visual.

Attached pic of VU meter...



Sorry it is so blurry... but +3 is the extreme right point (where a needle would peg) and 0dB is where the color goes to red. This particualy VU meter is labeled like so:

-20
-10
-7
-5
-3
-2
-1
0dB
+1
+2
+3

NOTE: BBS bug... editing a post with a pic replaces the UBB code with html code..

Why would these numbers and that scale be correct for the empeg display?

They wouldn't be. At all! This is an analouge display that I photographed. But, considering that nobody is going to use the VU Meter display to calibrate anything, it is just for fun. I work in broadcasting and all of my co-workers just love that VU meter display!

Yeah, I don't see how we could make an analog meter be accurate on the empeg display and still look like an analog meter. Because the empeg's needles will never go past 0db.

So anything we do will be a fake image.

Okay, how about this RAW file (attached)?

Incidentally, the new RAW file I just posted looks like this:

But I liked the idea of a faked one...

Oh well, I guess the normal VU will have to do for now! (no RAW viewer yet)

I especially like scew heads!

Still two left cahnnels?

ok great, I love it,
now how do I save my current vu meter background for backup, and how do I put tis new one in place ?

Still two left cahnnels?

SHIT.

Okay, I'll fix that...

Okay, attached is the proper file with the correct L and R indicators.

To install these fille onto the player, please see this FAQ entry. Don't bother to back up the original file because you can always get it back by installing an upgrade.

I like the new vu back... but when you have info:line turned on it squishes it strangely. Is there anything that can be done to help this?

Tom

The squishing of the visuals with info:line was a REQUESTED FEATURE that got implemented in a recent version of the software. There is no way to override it other than to use a full-screen visual.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR, PEOPLE!

Yeah... this one can get kinda ugly.... now [bold]who[/bold] requested it!?! heehee I am impressed that it can be done, but prefered it the other way.. guess it serves me right for not visiting the forum during the time it was discussed.

Its only good on spectral plot visuals......oh well. Maybe Hijack could disable it? Anyway just uploaded the new VU meter image and me likes

For what it's worth, there are *two* standards for relating dBFS to VU (and dBu.) From my studio days, I recalled using -18dBFS as my 0VU reference point.

However, a quick Google and perusal turned up both EBU R68 and SMPTE RP155, which define different VU/dBFS standards. Basically, omitting the rest of the curve, SMPTE likes to see -20dBFS == +4 dBu == 0VU, and EBU defines -18dBFS == 0dBu == VU.

Thus, the interested reader could choose either of those. Personally, I'll stick with EBU.

So, based on those specs, what should the numbers in my graphic read?

Tony,

I love the new graphic VU meter. Awesome job.

One thing though... I think the first version has a better color scheme as far as the "Red Zone" goes. The newer version doesn't seem obvious enough.

Maybe it's because in the first version that area is actually brighter, instead of darker... Hmm...

If I'm given an accurate set of numbers to put on it, I'll change the red zone back to white and post it...

Oy. I hadn't looked closely at how the "needles" respond; it looks to me like they're peak reading rather than VU reading.

Anyway, I ran a -14dBFS 1k tone through it, and the needles on the standard Anna VU visual deflected to the right edge of the second segment from the left. So that would be about +4VU on the EBU scale, which should peg the meter. Or, perhaps I'm missing something -- I'm not giving this a lot of thought, unfortunately.

Given that, I think it's probably best to just have a fun little visual, as we have, and ignore what I said earlier.

Mmm.. that's cool. Dunno about the corner rivets, though.

Cheers

I really like the visual-squishing feature, since without it a ton of the spectrum-style visuals get "lost" behind the info-line.

Cheers

I think I mentioned in Wish List that the squishing suits some visuals better than others. IMHO, some should squash (spectrolog), some should just be shifted up (timeshade), and some should be either simply overlaid or shifted so that the centre is still centred (analogue clock, anna vu).

I used to use the "Line" info mode constantly and only switched to "Track" mode when wanting to find out what album a song was from. Now, because of the squish I just toggle between Track and Transient .....

Not that this is a standard, but it is a reference point...on my Sony TC-K444 ES II cassette recorder the meters are labeled Peak Program Meter and marked off as:
- infinity
- 40 dB
- 30 dB
- 20 dB
- 10 dB
- 4 dB (and on a different scale labeled as OVU )
There is a double D Dolby symbol at ~ -3dB
0 dB (this is where the meter goes red)
+ 2 dB
+ 4 dB
+ 6 dB
+ 8 dB

Digging further, from the 3rd edition of Modern Recording Techniques pg245, reads:

In reply to:

---

A peak meter reads higher at point A than at point B, even though the loudness level is the same (A being a sharp transient, vs B a more sinusoidal wave.)

A VU meter reads the rms level and ignores peaks that do not contribute to loudness.

Volume units indicated on the meter are equal to dB for sine waves, but for other waves or complex signals, the VU meter actually reads between the rms and peak values of the signal. For these waves, volume units are larger than dB.

---

There now that clears things up...(ack!) Since sine waves are pretty boring to listen too after a while, I guess we'll have to consign ourselves to seeing something close. Regardless, it looks to me like Anna VU is actually a peak meter but it really doesn't matter much as we enjoy the visual either way. Also, zero VU is considered the standard operating level.

That relates to my one complaint with the "improved" version of this visual in the v2 release--we have seemed to have lost the slight lag that real VU meters have (momentum of getting/keeping the needle in motion) but have gotten a much more responsive display.

Brad's picture shows what are probably the "more standard" VU ratings: -20, -10, -7, -5, -3, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3 w/0 and up in red. I would suggest we use -20, -10, -5, -3, 0, +3.

I would suggest we use -20, -10, -5, -3, 0, +3.

So the last one I uploaded is actually pretty close to OK considering that the end-point marks aren't labeled because of lack of space.

Shouldn't the Anna Vu meter correspond with the volume dB scale? With the overdrive part in "red" ? Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Calvin

Okay to clear up what the visual is actually displaying I'll tell you exactly what the needle deflection means.

Each needle represents each channel (left & right) - For mono MP3s the visualisation library is conned into thinking it has a stereo signal with the same data in each channel regardless of the current visual.

Each needle can deflect by a maximum of 90 degrees. At any point in time the actual deflection of a needle is the decay damped rms of the audio. That is to say that if the rms of the current frame exceeds the decay damped value from previous frames that rms value becomes the new decay damped value, if it does not then the previous decay damped value is used and then decayed by a constant amount.

According to Time's reference this means that the visual is correctly named as the rms signal is used. The decay damping (and lack of attack damping to some extent) can be regarded as the method used to digitally model an analogue VU meter.

Given that the samples used in generating the RMS value are 16 bit signed then the maximum possible rms value (based on a square wave) is 32767.

Because the positioning of 0db sets at what point the rms value is being measured relative to it is important that this point is meaningful. The convention in analogue electronics is to use the rms of the maximum possible sine wave to measure the signal relative to. Our signal is bounded by the square wave maximum so this would be a logical choice (to position 0db at the far right of the scale) - However it is would probably be more in keeping with the theme of an analogue vu meter to use the sine wave to position 0db.

Therefore the position of 0db should be:

(90 degrees divided by the square root of two)degrees from the left of the scale.

The square wave is 3db louder than the sine wave so that positions another point at the far right of the scale.

The far left of scale is -infinity decibels (subject to debate), it just remains to make the scale meaningful between 0db and -infinity db.

Hope all of this makes sense,
Toby.

(90 degrees divided by the square root of two)degrees from the left of the scale.

And this number is?

(Don't have a SQRT button on the Windows Calculator )

Don't have a SQRT button on the Windows Calculator

Tony, your forgetting to apply MS logic to the problem. Go to View, Standard, and there is your SQRT button on the right upper edge. No clue why the scientific one dosen't have it, then again I do only trust RPN calculators anyhow.

ROFL, okay.

Why duplicate functionality? Not that I believe that's the reason sqrt isn't there...

You do have a x^y button that will do sqrt if you give it 0.5 as second argument.

/Michael

Wait, that can't be right. That tells me that 0db should be about 63-64 degrees from the far left of the scale.

SQRT of 2 is 1.414...

90 divided by 1.414 is 63.649...

So that means 0db would be on the left third of the scale instead of towards the right.

I'm doing it wrong or not understanding something.

AFAIK start to end is 90 degrees, mid scale (straight up) is at 45 degrees...

/Michael

He said "from the far right end of the scale".

EDIT: I just re-read it. He said LEFT end of the scale. I am an idiot. All is well.

/me goes to work on the image.

Okay, the 0db marker was pretty close to that point. Just have to move it a couple pixels to the left and mess with it some more. Cool...

Okay, attached is my latest stab at an Anna VU visual replacement.

For those that wish to try it, upload it to the player as vuback.raw into /empeg/lib/visuals as instructed here.

The 0db point is about (as close as I could get it with low-rez pixels) at 64 degrees from the left end of the scale. The right end of the scale is labeled as +3, and the left end of the scale is numbered approximately what Tim suggested.

I think that it is not possible to get it perfectly accurate to the real world, and this is about as close as we're ever going to get it.

And this is what the latest one looks like on the screen:

Very Nice!

Thanks. Now the question is whether or not this meets Toby's criteria to use as the "official" Anna VU visual....

And thanks for the FAQ entry.... that was the first time I sent a file to the player and all went well! (I always get worried when mounting the music partition rw takes several minutes!)

The engineers here at work approve!

EDIT: 1 thing about the FAQ... it doesn't mention to change the Hyperterminal (assuming that is what people mostly use) to Zmodem. I believe (at least in my case - w. a 2 day old install of Win2k) it defaults to ZModem w. Recovery or something similar...

I always get worried when mounting the music partition rw takes several minutes

I think it was Mark Lord that pointed out that one can add the nocheck option to the mount command in the rwm script to speed it up.

You can change the /bin/rwm script to contain the following (the red stuff is the change).
==============
#!/bin/sh
mount -n -o remount,rw,nocheck /drive0
[ -e /proc/ide/hdb ] && mount -n -o remount,rw,nocheck /drive1
==============

If you edit the file on a non-Unix machine, use an editor that can save the file with unix style linefeeds. After (re)uploading, make sure the file is executable, default permissions seem to be 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)

/Michael

Very nice!

I especially like the lower left screw head being rotated...

I was gonna draw four completely different screw head angles, but got fed up.

Looks and works great!

Mmm.. I'd really prefer if the upper right screw were the same orientation as the lower left.. symmetry or something.

It's deliberately asymmetrical.

What's wrong with INV x^2 ?

Besides, *everybody* knows that 1/sqrt(2) ~ 0.707

I knew it was, that's why I mentioned it.

It's one of those subtle things, that I think most people wouldn't notice, kinda like those two thin horizontal lines on Trinitron monitors, only not as annoying.

I actually like it being rotated... I think it gives it more of a quirky, non-mainstream feel.

kinda like those two thin horizontal lines on Trinitron

they should put warnings on the box about those they are annoying

VERY ! cool... I love it, kudos, keep up the good woork

Dude, YOU ROCK!

Nice work Tony! It looks great!
Thanks!

Thanks!

Hey, Toby. Tim likes it. Does that mean it can be the default visual now?

A suggestion here - let alternative versions of a visual to be selected by using the "select mode" button on the remote, like when changing the visuals that sometimes leave trails. Then we can all choose the version we prefer, and the visual selection menus don't end up being any more massive than they are.

Interestingly, I have some audio test signals on my empeg.

When I play a -14db Sine wave reference, the numbers line up perfectly with the expected value, just a hair to the right of the -15 mark.

When I play a 0db sine wave, the needle pegs at +3! I thought Toby had said that only a square wave could push it that high, or was I reading it wrong?

Anyway, I love it! Very cool!

Could you send me the files you are using please?

Thanks

im intrested too!
thx

I have checked this and generated three wav files which you should find attached to this post. They are a 0db sine wave, a 0db square wave (+3b), a -5db sine wave, and a -10db sine wave.

It transpires that the visual was using 1.5 times the rms for its display to expand the needle range for normal sounds into the region above 0db. Actually this should be a multiply by (square root of two) but 1.5 is close enough. This brings the 0db point to the far right of the display.

I have now altered the algorithm so that the scale is as discussed with 0db being the sine wave reference point at around 64 degrees. However, it is up to you, the users which you would prefer. You should not see much activity in the region above 0db unless your audio is clipping.

Tony's latest scale is pretty accurate, even -5db and -10db are nearly in the right place, and he didn't have any theory to work from for that scale.

Toby, you can't attach files >100KB

Rob

Sorry #1 here are the sinewave_0db and squarewave_0db

sorry #2 here is the sinewave_-10db

sorry #3 here is the sinewave_-5db

bloody hell that was a bit of a shag

Watch the lord mayor, china! You do rabbit some jackson.

Rob

Tony's latest scale is pretty accurate, even -5db and -10db are nearly in the right place, and he didn't have any theory to work from for that scale.

Wow.

I assume that means the new version of AnnaVu with the adjusted scaling will be in the next beta, or is there a way to change the existing one (I would think not)? Are you going to have two versions, like an "AnnaVu (Traiditional) and AnnaVu(Accurate)" or similar?

Thanks for your hard work!

Uhhhh.. What?

I don't know really whether the scale should be chanegd for the next beta, that's up to you guys.

Personally I think the old scale looks better as there is more needle deflection. The new scale doesn't show any deflection above 0db unless the sound is pretty screwed up or clipping.

I would recommend that we have 0db at the top of the scale and number it down to -infinity. This should be possible with the wavs I attached to previous posts, although you may require a -40db as well.

If the scale is replaced, can we lose the fake rivets please ?

They are just a little too cheesy for such a hi tech product...

I like the rivets... but the whole thing is so cooooooooooooool that I'd still like it either way. Way to go Tony and Toby.

I think we should lose the rivets because they would not show up illuminated on a real VU meter. The rest of the display looks very realistic.

Rob

My vote is to change the scale to represent a traditional VU meter. Otherwise, it is something else and unfamiliar in its behavior.

Perhaps a poll is in order!

Lynn

Why not just have both! Then everyone can have the one they want :-)

Okay, here is one without the screws.

Personally, I like the screws, they give it that "analog feel". But I aims to please.

But I aims to please

...and you succeed, except when the cheese creeps in

Do Americans understand our reference to the fatty foodstuff in this context???

I thought they invented invented this particular context ?

I kept my screws. I like that version better. Thanks Tony..

The first reference to ``cheesy'' in this context in my OED is from a book called Student Slang by a Gore in 1896, but I'm having a hard time finding any more reference to that, so I can't tell if he was American or English. However, the second reference is from a P.G. Wodehouse Jeeves novel written 34 years later, who was an Englishman living in America, so that doesn't help any more. (Boy, that was all helpful, wasn't it?)

Regardless, yes -- we do know that meaning.

Searching for the definition of "cheesy" on Google leads to some very unsavoury descriptions of medical conditions, put me right off my food it did...

In reply to:

---

I'd really prefer if the upper right screw were the same orientation as the lower left.. symmetry or something

---

ask and ye shall receive...
--
sancho

It's the little things in life that really count.

Thanks!

Hey, Toby. Tim likes it. Does that mean it can be the default visual now?

I'm not trying to bring back a thread from the graveyard or anything here, but what ever happened with this...?

I just installed V3.0 Alpha 7 and it has the old shwaggy Anna Vu in it.

So, I thought I'd mention it.

Recent versions of LogoEdit have an option to replace Anna Vu and Tux Much via FTP. One of the included example is a replacement Anna Vu. I've just gotten in the habit of putting that into place every time I do an upgrade. Right after Hijack.

Here is one of mine I did about a year or so ago.
It still needs some tweaking that I never got around to.
This one looks col especially if you have indiglo gauges.

Okay, that's pretty cool.

Share the bitmap man.

Are you sure you want it? It's no where near accurate and the right side needle goes out side the window.(into the black space in the middle)

It's also got the issue of the white needles not being visible atop most of the white faces. I've made a version with the colors toned down but it doesn't look as good.

Hey, Toby, somewhere in the 3.0 tree, could you make the VU Meter visual draw a black line to the left of the white line for each needle? That way people could make more varied VU meter backgrounds that include white.

Post deleted by Skunk

Is that a white needle on a white background? Can you see it very well?

Once they are moving it looks fine.

If you invert the image you will get the white needles on black.

OK first of all for some reason I can't see the images on the revious posts so I don't know what your original replacement VU background looks like, and I'm just bored right now to hook up the empeg to upload the raw file and check them out, but when I saw the attacment on this post I had a _MAJOR_ deja vu to say the least.

Sometime ago (23/3/04 actually as the date modiffied of the attached file indicates) I found an Anna VU backgroud I think in Brad's site and liked it, so I used it but also started messing with it and ended up with what's in the attached file (it's a logo editor file).

Now, I don't remember if the numbers where there (I DO remember adding some characters to "something" as I used Rio Font Editor to replicate the font exactly but I'm really not sure if it was for this or something else) but appart from the "hole" I added at the bottom of it to make it more real like I'll be dammed if they are not quite the same!!! Go figure.

The funny thing is, if I _DID_ add those numbers to the version that is on my player since March, then I did it completly randomly, just from faint memory of the logarithmic scale on a real VU. I'm sure I didn't mess with the scale points though (that would be work and I was lazy I'm sure). So if by accident I made something that took Tony using a calculator and prolux's feedback, please do let me know so I can go play lotto tomorrow

Also I do remember that brad had 2 versions of the file, one with symetrical screws and one with not but can't find his site right now to verify.


P.S. My vote on how the visual should behave, is both (i.e. "Anna VU" and "Anna VU RMS")

Ah, yes. Now I remember.

I took the bg from the Logo Editor example files and then added the "hole" at the bottom. The one featured in Brads site was the original + the modification he made with the symetrical screws (that I didn't like much and didn't use - sorry Brad).

The characters I remember adding are in the attached file that's Fiat logo home and car images I made for my Uno then and Stilo now (and I might get round to making a nice boot logo someday since nobody in this board seems to have a Fiat - sheesh).

Quote:
Regarding the numbers, if they're the same as my original numbers, then they're just there to look good, not because I took a calculator or anything to it.

Yes they ARE exactly the same (in fact pixel by pixel the same), so I guess it's YOU that shoulg go play lotto So I guess the calculators went out for nothing, sometimes you must just go with luck

OT: Drakino, Any reason why dizar's post count doesn't seem to be working?

to be fixed one day when I get to it and the upgrade to beta 4. Odd glitch from the merge.

I didn't make any of the AnnuVu logos. I think that one was posted in a thread somewhere and I pulled it. The only stuff I did on that site was some of the Escher images and the "Digital empeg" animation (in MS Paint!!) I used to do a boatload of static logos too, but I don't think they got posted except on RioCar.org.

I was not satisfied with my most recent version of the Anna vu background and decided to do some tweaking.
Some improvements include easier to read numbers, better contrast for the white needles and improved bars.

Here are some screen shots of both normal and negatives.

Copy this image to your clipboard.

Open tfabris's Logo Editor
Click on File>Grab Anna Vu and Tux Much from player (FTP)
Click on Edit>Paste Home
(*optional step) Click on Image>Negative Image Home
Click on File>Send Anna Vu and Tux Much to player (FTP)
Done

* For better contrast against the white needle.

Copy this image to your clipboard.

Open tfabris's Logo Editor
Click on File>Grab Anna Vu and Tux Much from player (FTP)
Click on Edit>Paste Home
(*optional step) Click on Image>Negative Image Home
Click on File>Send Anna Vu and Tux Much to player (FTP)
Done

* For better contrast against the white needle.

Copy this image to your clipboard.

Open tfabris's Logo Editor
Click on File>Grab Anna Vu and Tux Much from player (FTP)
Click on Edit>Paste Home
(*optional step) Click on Image>Negative Image Home
Click on File>Send Anna Vu and Tux Much to player (FTP)
Done

* For better contrast against the white needle.

Way to go man!

When you getting that site up?

Thanks.

Animation requests are slow right now so I guess now is a good time as any to work on the site.

A few tweeks..



For some reason, I can't get my image to preview..

(admin edit, you need to click the attachment and get the actual URL of the picture, not the attachments.php handler)

Sweet!
I like it. I'll have to try it out.

Thanks Drakino!