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#76838 - 01/03/2002 12:18 VU Meter numbering?
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA

A while back, I posted a replacement for the Anna Vu visual's background. It looked like this:



The problem is, when I created it, I was basing it on a sliced-up image of a larger VU meter that had a different sweep for the needles than the visual. So on this meter, the numbers are essentially meaningless.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what the numbers SHOULD read on this scale, in order to be accurate?
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Tony Fabris

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#76839 - 01/03/2002 12:23 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
I'd like it to simulate an analogue VU meter where it is allowed to go over 0dB. I mean, no one is going to use this to callibrate anything are they?
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Brad B.

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#76840 - 01/03/2002 12:26 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
It currently does that (0's about the middle), but I don't know much about analog VU meters, so I don't know what the other numbers mean.
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Tony Fabris

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#76841 - 01/03/2002 12:36 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
+3 dB should be the point where the needle pegs. 0dB would be where the color starts to change. I'm charging up my camera - we have some meters here.
_________________________
Brad B.

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#76842 - 03/03/2002 18:17 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
dcosta
enthusiast

Registered: 04/02/2002
Posts: 276
Loc: Massachussetts
I love this idea.
this is my favorite visual.
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#76843 - 03/03/2002 19:08 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
Attached pic of VU meter...



Sorry it is so blurry... but +3 is the extreme right point (where a needle would peg) and 0dB is where the color goes to red. This particualy VU meter is labeled like so:

-20
-10
-7
-5
-3
-2
-1
0dB
+1
+2
+3

NOTE: BBS bug... editing a post with a pic replaces the UBB code with html code..


Attachments
75148-tonysVU.jpg (3308 downloads)



Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (03/03/2002 19:15)
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Brad B.

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#76844 - 04/03/2002 04:09 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
prolux
member

Registered: 17/08/1999
Posts: 151
Loc: Manchester, UK
Why would these numbers and that scale be correct for the empeg display?

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#76845 - 04/03/2002 06:54 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: prolux]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
They wouldn't be. At all! This is an analouge display that I photographed. But, considering that nobody is going to use the VU Meter display to calibrate anything, it is just for fun. I work in broadcasting and all of my co-workers just love that VU meter display!
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Brad B.

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#76846 - 04/03/2002 13:50 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: prolux]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, I don't see how we could make an analog meter be accurate on the empeg display and still look like an analog meter. Because the empeg's needles will never go past 0db.

So anything we do will be a fake image.

Okay, how about this RAW file (attached)?



Attachments
75360-vuback.raw (193 downloads)

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Tony Fabris

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#76847 - 04/03/2002 13:51 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
Incidentally, the new RAW file I just posted looks like this:



Attachments
75361-vuback.gif (213 downloads)

_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#76848 - 04/03/2002 13:52 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
But I liked the idea of a faked one...

Oh well, I guess the normal VU will have to do for now! (no RAW viewer yet)
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Brad B.

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#76849 - 04/03/2002 13:53 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
I especially like scew heads!

Still two left cahnnels?


Edited by bonzi (04/03/2002 13:55)
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#76850 - 04/03/2002 14:02 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: bonzi]
dcosta
enthusiast

Registered: 04/02/2002
Posts: 276
Loc: Massachussetts
ok great, I love it,
now how do I save my current vu meter background for backup, and how do I put tis new one in place ?
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__________ davecosta Hijacked 60GB MKIIa 2.0b13

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#76851 - 04/03/2002 14:15 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: bonzi]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
Still two left cahnnels?

SHIT.

Okay, I'll fix that...
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Tony Fabris

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#76852 - 04/03/2002 14:23 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
Okay, attached is the proper file with the correct L and R indicators.

To install these fille onto the player, please see this FAQ entry. Don't bother to back up the original file because you can always get it back by installing an upgrade.


Attachments
75377-vuback.raw (188 downloads)

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Tony Fabris

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#76853 - 04/03/2002 15:08 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
Liufeng
member

Registered: 14/09/1999
Posts: 149
Loc: Alaska
I like the new vu back... but when you have info:line turned on it squishes it strangely. Is there anything that can be done to help this?

Tom
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#76854 - 04/03/2002 15:22 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: Liufeng]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
The squishing of the visuals with info:line was a REQUESTED FEATURE that got implemented in a recent version of the software. There is no way to override it other than to use a full-screen visual.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR, PEOPLE!
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Tony Fabris

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#76855 - 04/03/2002 15:40 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
Yeah... this one can get kinda ugly.... now [bold]who[/bold] requested it!?! heehee I am impressed that it can be done, but prefered it the other way.. guess it serves me right for not visiting the forum during the time it was discussed.
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Brad B.

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#76856 - 04/03/2002 15:50 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
acurasquirrel
member

Registered: 10/01/2002
Posts: 186
Loc: Georgia
Its only good on spectral plot visuals......oh well. Maybe Hijack could disable it? Anyway just uploaded the new VU meter image and me likes

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#76857 - 05/03/2002 18:55 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
mgraven
new poster

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 21
Loc: SF Bay Area, California
For what it's worth, there are *two* standards for relating dBFS to VU (and dBu.) From my studio days, I recalled using -18dBFS as my 0VU reference point.

However, a quick Google and perusal turned up both EBU R68 and SMPTE RP155, which define different VU/dBFS standards. Basically, omitting the rest of the curve, SMPTE likes to see -20dBFS == +4 dBu == 0VU, and EBU defines -18dBFS == 0dBu == VU.

Thus, the interested reader could choose either of those. Personally, I'll stick with EBU.

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#76858 - 05/03/2002 19:09 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: mgraven]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
So, based on those specs, what should the numbers in my graphic read?
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Tony Fabris

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#76859 - 05/03/2002 20:28 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
Diznario
enthusiast

Registered: 17/10/2001
Posts: 265
Loc: Portland OR
Tony,

I love the new graphic VU meter. Awesome job.

One thing though... I think the first version has a better color scheme as far as the "Red Zone" goes. The newer version doesn't seem obvious enough.

Maybe it's because in the first version that area is actually brighter, instead of darker... Hmm...


Edited by Diznario (05/03/2002 20:32)
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Dario
MK2 in an Impreza 2.5RS

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#76860 - 05/03/2002 20:42 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: Diznario]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
If I'm given an accurate set of numbers to put on it, I'll change the red zone back to white and post it...
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#76861 - 06/03/2002 00:43 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
mgraven
new poster

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 21
Loc: SF Bay Area, California
Oy. I hadn't looked closely at how the "needles" respond; it looks to me like they're peak reading rather than VU reading.

Anyway, I ran a -14dBFS 1k tone through it, and the needles on the standard Anna VU visual deflected to the right edge of the second segment from the left. So that would be about +4VU on the EBU scale, which should peg the meter. Or, perhaps I'm missing something -- I'm not giving this a lot of thought, unfortunately.

Given that, I think it's probably best to just have a fun little visual, as we have, and ignore what I said earlier.

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#76862 - 06/03/2002 08:49 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13879
Loc: Canada
Mmm.. that's cool. Dunno about the corner rivets, though.

Cheers

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#76863 - 06/03/2002 08:52 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13879
Loc: Canada
I really like the visual-squishing feature, since without it a ton of the spectrum-style visuals get "lost" behind the info-line.

Cheers

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#76864 - 06/03/2002 09:16 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: mlord]
tms13
old hand

Registered: 30/07/2001
Posts: 1115
Loc: Lochcarron and Edinburgh
I think I mentioned in Wish List that the squishing suits some visuals better than others. IMHO, some should squash (spectrolog), some should just be shifted up (timeshade), and some should be either simply overlaid or shifted so that the centre is still centred (analogue clock, anna vu).
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Toby Speight
030103016 (80GB Mk2a, blue)
030102806 (0GB Mk2a, blue)

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#76865 - 06/03/2002 09:18 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: mlord]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
I used to use the "Line" info mode constantly and only switched to "Track" mode when wanting to find out what album a song was from. Now, because of the squish I just toggle between Track and Transient .....
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Brad B.

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#76866 - 06/03/2002 10:49 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: tfabris]
time
enthusiast

Registered: 20/11/2000
Posts: 276
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Not that this is a standard, but it is a reference point...on my Sony TC-K444 ES II cassette recorder the meters are labeled Peak Program Meter and marked off as:
- infinity
- 40 dB
- 30 dB
- 20 dB
- 10 dB
- 4 dB (and on a different scale labeled as OVU )
There is a double D Dolby symbol at ~ -3dB
0 dB (this is where the meter goes red)
+ 2 dB
+ 4 dB
+ 6 dB
+ 8 dB

Digging further, from the 3rd edition of Modern Recording Techniques pg245, reads:
In reply to:

A peak meter reads higher at point A than at point B, even though the loudness level is the same (A being a sharp transient, vs B a more sinusoidal wave.)

A VU meter reads the rms level and ignores peaks that do not contribute to loudness.

Volume units indicated on the meter are equal to dB for sine waves, but for other waves or complex signals, the VU meter actually reads between the rms and peak values of the signal. For these waves, volume units are larger than dB.


There now that clears things up...(ack!) Since sine waves are pretty boring to listen too after a while, I guess we'll have to consign ourselves to seeing something close. Regardless, it looks to me like Anna VU is actually a peak meter but it really doesn't matter much as we enjoy the visual either way. Also, zero VU is considered the standard operating level.

That relates to my one complaint with the "improved" version of this visual in the v2 release--we have seemed to have lost the slight lag that real VU meters have (momentum of getting/keeping the needle in motion) but have gotten a much more responsive display.

Brad's picture shows what are probably the "more standard" VU ratings: -20, -10, -7, -5, -3, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3 w/0 and up in red. I would suggest we use -20, -10, -5, -3, 0, +3.

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#76867 - 06/03/2002 11:49 Re: VU Meter numbering? [Re: time]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31164
Loc: Seattle, WA
I would suggest we use -20, -10, -5, -3, 0, +3.

So the last one I uploaded is actually pretty close to OK considering that the end-point marks aren't labeled because of lack of space.
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Tony Fabris

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