A question for Empeg guys:

It seems that I will have no option but to mount Empeg in my Twingo in the original radio slot, which is angled at some 70 deg, almost vertical (despite valiant efforts on Rob Schofield's part to help me find some other solution). Hugo has previously warned against that, due to disk shock mount geometry. Now, the question is: how much do you reasonably expect that mounting to affect disk drive's life (10000 miles a year, almost exclusively city)? Would it affect my warranty?

Thanks!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196

The shock mounts aren't designed to work at that angle, so the disk wouldn't get much (if any) protection against vibration and shocks. I don't have any empirical data on this, but I consider it likely that the disk life would be considerably reduced.

In addition, the drives themselves are not rated to be mounted at such an angle.

Your warranty is invalidated if the player is installed or operated outside of our published tolerances. We take a sensible approach to the warranty, so if something entirely unrelated to the mounting angle were to fail then that wouldn't be a problem. If the disk failed, and it was apparant that the unit had been mounted near to vertical (this would be quite obvious due to the nature of the rubber mounts) then we may well charge for the replacement.

There is also a slight chance that mounting the unit vertically could cause excessive wear on the mounts, and the metal disk tray could become detatched within the unit. This could cause all kinds of unfortunate results.

Of course you may never experience a problem, but I thought it fair to point out the possible pitfalls.

Regards

Rob

If the disk failed, and it was apparant that the unit had been mounted near to vertical (this would be quite obvious due to the nature of the rubber mounts) then we may well charge for the replacement.

Fair enough. I will continue trying to figure something out...

Thanks!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196

So did rob finish scaring the wits out of your installation? ;)

Have you considered an underdash kit, like the kind from Crutchfield's? Not very "positional" pretty, but it'll be at the right mounting angle.

Calvin

Hey Bonzi... I know some stuff about twingos, I helped a friend installing a second DIN unit on his dashboard (some "plastic" surgery is needed) and we were able to get a perfect 90º mount. The problem is that you lose your ashtray and cigarette lighter. This was done in a 95' Twingo, so if yours is the newer model, I'm not sure if it will work, as the dashboard has been redesigned. Any help you need, feel free to ask. Bye!

Have you considered an underdash kit, like the kind from Crutchfield's?

No room, Calvin. Thanks, anyway!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196

I know some stuff about twingos, I helped a friend installing a second DIN unit on his dashboard (some "plastic" surgery is needed) and we were able to get a perfect 90º mount. The problem is that you lose your ashtray and cigarette lighter.

I am beginning to think this is the only solution (unless I think of the way to make a decent enclosure right in front of driver). Loosing the ashtray and lighter is not a problem (though both my usual passenger and myself do smoke), and I think that this part of the dashboard did not change from '95 model. I might find some A/C ducts behind the ashtray, but it should be possible to reroute them.

Will you be so kind to give me more info on your 'surgery'?

Thanks!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196

I was going to chime in here earlier, but I thought I should wait it out and see what your decision ended up being, based on Rob's comments.

It looks like you're a little bit panicked about finding a proper mounting spot in your vehicle, so I'm going to throw in my two cents. I don't know what a "Twingo" is, or what its stereo mounting slot is like, so I'm going to base this reply on the following assumptions: 1) That the place you're intending for the installation is actually meant for a DIN-sized stereo, and 2) The installation spot is more vertical than horizontal.

Now, I don't want to contradict anything that Rob said, and I don't intend to. But you have to understand that Rob is doing his best to stay within the boundaries defined by their business needs: i.e., they can't replace units or drives that were mistreated. So he can't say "the Empeg is very tough, and so are the drives we install, don't worry about it", even though it would be a true statement.

Assuming that the Mark2's will have a similar shock-mount system to the Mark1's, here is how it works:

The platter which holds the drives has four soft rubber mounts which seem (to me) to travel in all directions, not just up and down. The mounts are held into the frame via friction- i.e., they "snap" into place in their mounting holes.

But when I opened my Mark1 to add the second drive, I discovered that the rubber mounts had become "unsnapped" (probably when I dropped it once), and that the drive platter was mostly being held in position by the IDE ribbon cable which connected to the drive. Also, I noticed that the IDE ribbon cable was rubbing against a jumper on the motherboard and some of the insulation had rubbed off of it at that point. The drive platter was basically held in place by cabling and components on the interior of the unit. It had apparently been this way for a long time, and I didn't know about it. And the unit functioned flawlessly the whole time.

See, the clearances inside the Empeg are very small. Even with the rubber mounts, there's not much "travel" to them, so they don't completely absorb the really big shocks anyway. In fact, the mounts seem to have better travel in the front-back direction than the up/down direction, making a vertical orientation sound more plausible. The mounts help absorb the shocks a little, but the Empeg is also depending on the laptop disk drives to be tough. Which they are.

I ran my Empeg in a rough-riding car, daily for months, without the rubber shocks being functional at all. This would definitely qualify as mistreatment, but I haven't had any electronic or mechanical trouble with it.

So how rough does your Twingo ride? How smooth are the roads on which you drive it? The Jeep owners on this BBS probably have drives in the same situation as mine: Their rubber mounts might have come undone, too, and therefore aren't doing anything much at this point. (In fact, I just rechecked mine, and two of the four mounts had come undone again.)

So the only real question is the vertical orientation of the laptop drives. Does anyone here on the BBS know anything about the internal workings of laptop hard disks? What goes wrong if you turn them vertical? I seem to remember some folks piping up on the mailing list about how tough they are...

Oh, and Rob, I'm sorry I hadn't mentioned the mounts coming undone before. It didn't seem to hurt the unit or anything...

Tony Fabris (http://www.jps.net/tfabris)
Empeg #144

I may be incorrect about this, but I think the problem with a non-horizontal mounting is less about shock protection and more about stress and wear on the drive spindle bearings.

The bearings are designed to run with the disk spindle in a vertical position -- they are only designed to accept thrust loads from that direction, the thrust being supplied (under normal conditions) by Uncle Gravity.

When you tilt the drive, the weight of the disk platters (admittedly small, but so are the bearings!) is applied at an angle the bearings are not designed to accept, at least not during continuous operation. The shock mounting is just to protect against brief, transient bearing loads caused by sudden accelerations in more or less random directions.

That said, I have no information (theoretical nor empirical) about how tough these drives really are. For all I know, running them at an angle will reduce their MTBF from 200,000 hours (or whatever) to 199,000 hours -- or maybe it'll give an anticipated life measured in minutes instead of years. Bonzi -- are you willing to experiment and let us know the results?

I have heard of disk drives (full size desktop drives, not laptap drives) that were spec'd to run either horizontal or vertical -- but NOT anything in between.

tanstaaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

orientation of the laptop drives

Bonzi, also note that the platter that holds the disks is mounted at an angle: look at the two small screws at both sides of the player -- the rear-end of the platter is higher up that the front-side. This makes sense if you consider that the DIN slotes of most cars are not entirely horizontal, but slope down a little. The Empeg seems to anticipate on this, and as a result of the sloped platter, the disks should spin nearly horizontal.

Henno
ex 00120

One point - we got the shock mounts redesigned for the mk2 so that they pull through & fit without any glue and simply will not come undone (we've tried!). The HDD cable is now custom in the mk2 aswell - a 2-drive cable comes with all units, so user drive upgrades (out of warranty, obviously!) are just a matter of getting the right screws.

The new display board has no chips on the back of it, and the new wiring harnesses mean the drive bay has a lot more freedom to wiggle and absorb shocks. Leaving aside the bad batch of 6G drives (which would fail even if they were sat on a desk!), we've only ever had 1x4g and 1x10g fail in the field out of all the mk1's, so we're pretty happy with the mountings.

Hugo

One point - we got the shock mounts redesigned for the mk2 so that they pull through & fit without any glue and simply will not come undone (we've tried!). The HDD cable is now custom in the mk2 aswell - a 2-drive cable comes with all units, so user drive upgrades (out of warranty, obviously!) are just a matter of getting the right screws.

The new display board has no chips on the back of it, and the new wiring harnesses mean the drive bay has a lot more freedom to wiggle and absorb shocks. Leaving aside the bad batch of 6G drives (which would fail even if they were sat on a desk!), we've only ever had 1x4g and 1x10g fail in the field out of all the mk1's, so we're pretty happy with the mountings.

Hugo

May I take these words as a basis to believe, Hugo, that you would perhaps venture to express, unofficially of course, shall we say, ah, certain lack of anticipation of problems concerning non-horizontal mounting of Empeg, warranty considerations notwithstanding ?

Cheers!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196

There is still one more thing that nobody has concidered. The drive still carries a manufacturers warranty. More then likely you will have no problem getting it replaced under warranty from the manufacturer because they will have no idea what it was used for.
I work at a computer store, and have sent back LOTS of hardware to the manufacturer that was misused and abused by the customer, and 99% of the time the manufacturer will replace it with no problems (as long as their is no visable physical damage to the outside).
So anyways, does anybody know the brand and model of hard drives that are going into these Empegs? Will there be versions available that do not include a hard drive at all?
If you have any further questions about sending back a HD to the manufacturer, please let me know.

Thanks
Craig

I have heard of disk drives (full size desktop drives, not laptap drives) that were spec'd to run either horizontal or vertical -- but NOT anything in between.

So did I. Actually, I think that IBM says something like that in tech specs of their Travelsomethings, the very discs used in Empeg (or about to be used); additionally, they recommend that disks be formatted in the same orientation they are going to work in (I remember, some 12 or 15 years ago with CDC Wren V disks (5_1/4", ESDI, 300MB, 18ms, $6k), that this was really important).

Bonzi -- are you willing to experiment and let us know the results?

I am, unless I find a better solution (Empeg is great, but I am not going to change my car to provide it with more comfortable home), but what good for is a sample of one :)

BTW, this spelling checker is ridiculous. It does not recognise IBM (or Empeg, for that matter), and suggests that I should be called Boo :)

Cheers!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196

The drive still carries a manufacturers warranty.

Ah, good thinking! So, even if Hugo decides I have been naughty and misstreated the drive, IBM or Toshiba or whoever might still replace it (the drive, that is)

Speaking of that, Empeg guys, do you get warranty for the drives you buy in bulk and for how long (the drives bought in retail here in Croatia usually carry a 3-year warranty; I know because one of mine croaked recently in its 37th month :)

Cheers!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196

BTW, this spelling checker is ridiculous. It does not recognise IBM (or Empeg, for that matter), and suggests that I should be called Boo.

Not to mention that it's American-English instead of UK-English. I'm sure it'll give the Empeg guys fits when they use words like "colour" and "specialise".

Still, it's much better than having no spell-checker at all. PaulH said that he's planning on adding some common BBS words like "Empeg" to the spell checker dictionary, so that'll help.

Tony Fabris (http://www.jps.net/tfabris)
Empeg #144

Your description of the Mk2 mounting system sounds neat. I'm looking forward to being able to upgrade my Mk1 to the newer display board. That should give my drives a little more wiggle room.

Question: If I wanted to re-glue the rubber mounts, what should I use? Obviously the glue that they initally used didn't hold them all that well. I was considering RTV silicone, what do you suggest?

Tony Fabris (http://www.jps.net/tfabris)
Empeg #144

If I was doing it, I'd personally want to open the empeg and put some foam cushioning in at the back of the unit to ensure the drive tray couldn't hit the back of the case sharply.

It'd void the warranty, and I'm not sure what the effects would be on drive life from running them in a strange orientation, but ensuring the drive won't hit anything solid from large vertical shocks (potholes, etc) would be a good move.

Hugo

Well, I'll make a 2nd data point. I've got a 2002 Maxima and I don't wanna take out the in-dash 6-disc changer. I'm thinking my best bet is to mount it underneath the armrest. I think the only mod I need to do is not use the sled (it doesn't quite fit) The player alone looks like it will fit if I cut a hole in the bottom for the docking connector, serial & RCAs... kinda making my armrest into a docking bay for the unit. Not the best place to be able to see the display or use the controls, but it should suffice.

As far as being vertially mounted goes, if the HD dies, I can see if Fujitsu will replace it, if not, I'll go buy another HD.

speelliunk cheeker?

I've got a 2002 Maxima and I don't wanna take out the in-dash 6-disc changer.

Trust me on this one, you want the empeg in the dash where you can see it. "Hide-away mounting" of the empeg is just too much trouble. Dump that CD changer, you will not miss it.

Everyone who has ever talked about "hide-away mounting" their empeg is simply being resistant to the idea of giving up CDs. But the whole point of the empeg is so that you CAN give up CDs. Trust me, it's so much better than a CD changer that once you use it in your car for a while, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.

If you hide it away, it'll only be a pain in the ass to use and you'll miss out on all the features that make it so truly great.

The only time I can understand a hide-away empeg is when the dash has no place to install a stereo at all. For instance, I saw a 7-series BMW with an integrated NAV system console where there was absolutely no way an aftermarket stereo was going in there at all. In that case, I could understand kludging a hide-away empeg if you had no other choice.

Of course, in that case, the best solution would be a trunk-mounted MP3 changer, not an empeg. What would be cool is if the empeg guys make a trunk-mounted MP3 changer for just this scenario. Hmm!

Of course, in that case, the best solution would be a trunk-mounted MP3 changer, not an empeg. What would be cool is if the empeg guys make a trunk-mounted MP3 changer for just this scenario. Hmm!

They HAVE a trunk mounted unit prototype gathering dust on the shelf. See here

Damn, I try to indicate jokes and sarcasm, but it just never comes through. This time I tried the wink icon and it still didn't work.

Heh...I just thought I could actually tell you something about Empeg that you didn't know...
Should've known better

If I had the option of putting my CD changer in the trunk, I'd do that instead. I do want to be able to use CD for when I'm either on vacation and buy new CDs or out and pick up friends who have CDs so I don't have to wait until I get home to rip 'em. If I had a laptop with me to rip and push music over, I'd be all set (except for CDDB).

The other issue is that the stock HU is double high and the sides are tapered so it'd look really goofy to put the empeg in. In the armrest, I'd still have (mildly inconvenient) access to it... flip up the lid and there's the empeg.

Playing with it on my desk by my computer, I can certainly see how much I will want easy access to the empeg. I'm gonna mull it over some more and see if I can get one of the guys on the Maxima board who's already got an empeg to post some pix.

Grab a cheap portable CD player, and have the AUX line on the empeg easially accessable. Works onders, until you leave that portable CD player in a hotel in Austin.

Lately if it became absolutly critical for anyone to play a CD, I have my laptop with me most of the time. It doubles as a ripping machine as well .

The best solution though to avoiding friends wanting to use a CD is to get them to buy empegs. That way the only decision that has to be made is who's empeg goes into the dash for the current trip.

Post some pics of your Maxima interior and I'll see if I can make some suggestions.

Get a few shots of the dash from a few angles (the entire dash).

My brother is working on something for his Licoln Town Car which might be useful for your car as well.

Bruno

Sure, suggestions are always welcome!

I posted some pics in my yahoo photo album. (hope that URL doesn't just work for me) Click once for a large thumbnail and again for the whole 1600x1200 thing.

The spot below the air controls (where the coin tray is) looks wide enough from the front, but I haven't taken the dash apart yet to see what it's like on the inside. This would also mean moving the hazards button somewhere and doing something about having a cut-out where the bottom half of the coin tray is.

The other spot is up top. Looks like if the part of the dash between the vents and the clock were cut out, there might be room up there, but I'd have to find out from other Maxima owners what's under there.

My biggest concern is finding out how feasible it is before I start... I don't want to cut a hole and then find out later that there's something in the way. This is the first *new* car I've ever bought and it's only a week old.

From what I can see in your pictures I can make the following simple suggestions:

1. Toss that nasty-looking BOSE head unit and replace with an appropriate DIN kit and the empeg.
2. As above, but put the BOSE into your arm-rest or if it fits, into that pocket on the forward sloping part of the armrest.
3. As #1, but it looks like your factory unit may fit a DOUBLE DIN - this will allow the empeg plus an aftermarket head.

You may want to do some searching over at the www.carsound.com forums and/or also ask some local installers what they have done with aftermarket heads in the past.

Don't mount the empeg vertically and don't hide its very useful display. Hiding the face of another head, including the stock one is much better alternative (though more wiring will likely be involved).

Bruno

I would recommend one of these options:

• Toss the Bose (as Bruno suggests) and replace it with single-DIN unit with a single CD slot. Perhaps you will need here and there to listen to *one* CD (freshly bought etc), but you really won't need a changer. Either route empeg through HU, or use one of those Sony relays that will connect empeg to the amps when it is in the car, and CD-HU otherwise. You could even use Y-leads on CD-HU preamp-outs and thread them to empeg AUX in. That way you will be able to listen to CDs through empeg, and will still have something to listen to when you just hop to the grocer's and leave empeg at home.
• Investigate those climate contols. I think that one BBS user modified his car (Corvette?) by ripping climate control board out, bundling its wires into a nice umbilical and installing it into armrest pocket. Empeg went to its place, of course.
  

Good luck and keep us posted.