I am moving to a new apartment next week, and am considering my options for TV. The basic cable package around here with digital cable ends up being around $42/month. DirecTV seems to be around $31 plus some miscellaneous fees. I don't care about most of the extra channels or whatever, but I was considering going the DirecTivo route.

The one thing I'm concerned about with DirecTV is rain fade. I've heard varying accounts of how much the weather affects DirecTV reception, so I'd like some input from anyone out there who's got one. It still remains to be seen if I will be able to find a place to mount the dish where I can see the DirecTV satellite.. How do I figure that out? DirecTV's page says my Azimuth angle is 228. I'm guessing that measures 228 degrees from due north, but in which direction?

Anyway I pulled up an aerial view of my soon-to-be apartment complex and I circled my building. This image was pulled from MapQuest which I am pretty sure orients all of their images with due north facing up. The red line facing southwest-ish is my back patio, the green facing southeast-ish is my bedroom window on the first floor. I figure one of these is where I'll put the dish, since I read the satellite is somewhere in the Southern hemisphere.

So, after all that, is there anyone who, after looking at that picture, and knowing something about DirecTV and the fact that my azimuth angle is 228 degrees, has any idea if I'd be able to get to the DirecTV satellite? My elevation angle is like 37 or so, and I'm very certain that I have that angle unobstructed all the way around. I'm just concerned about finding a good place for the dish, I read that putting it in a window can cause problems. Also, some comments on the effects of rain and snow would be helpful in my decision.

Thanks, all.

I can tell you that my dish is sitting on the floor of my deck and I get high 80s signal strength.

If you plan on getting Tivo, DirecTV wins hands down due to the dual tuners. If your TV is 32" or less (non XBR) I would also recommend DirecTV.

Cable wins if most of the programming you watch is on the analog signal and you have a high-def TV. Lots of digital artifacts appear on DirecTV when you have a good TV.

Yeah those features sound pretty sweet. Artifacts, eh? Any more artifacts than you see in digital cable?

Oh, another thing, what do I do about a second TV if I go the DirecTV route? I guess it's not like cable where you can split it or use it on two TV's without another box... What's the extra charge for a second box?

The one thing I'm concerned about with DirecTV is rain fade.

"Rain Fade" is a misnomer.

The more accurate term would be "Gigantic booming thundercloud directly over your house slinging tons of hail and lightning into your yard fade".

In other words, when I had DirecTV, only the harshest of high-energy thunderstorms would block my signal, and only briefly. This is going to depend on how well your dish is aimed and whether you're too far off-axis from one of their more focused target areas (supposedly they boost the satellite power towards the more rany areas, I have no idea how).

The total amount of time that I lost signal due to weather was approximately 1/100th the amount of time that I lost signal due to cable company problems. (I switched to DirectTV one 4-day Thanksgiving weekend when the cable went out Wednesday night and stayed out all the way through Sunday. And they did not answer their phones that weekend, which is actually illegal according to FCC rules. Owner went home late on Wednesday and forgot to press the "forward" button on the phone...)

Basically, I will do my best to avoid giving cable companies any more of my money if I can help it. So yeah, the DirecTivo thing would be good for you if you can handle some data compression artifacts in your TV picture.

Your only concern is whether or not the aparment complex will allow you to install the dish. I don't know where the laws currently reside on that subject, as I've had my own home since DirecTV has been available. But once upon a time, your apartment manager had every right to disallow you from mounting the dishes on the apartment building, and I don't see why that would have changed in recent years.

With DirecTV you split the signal with a multiswitch. Good ones include Spaun and Channnel Master. I have a 2x4 multiswitch. This means it takes the two leads coming off the dish and makes them into 4. There is also 2x6 (6 outputs), 2x8 (8 outputs), etc. If you see a multiswitch that starts with 3x that means it has an input for an antenna or cable and will integrate the signal into the DirecTV cable. This is good if you cannnot get locals from DirecTV.

A decent 2nd box costs about $50 and you pay for it once and can buy it anywhere (unlike cable where a box will cost you $400 or a monthly rental fee).

Well, i don't think i can answer any of the questions you asked, but i can tell you something from my own experience. I have Dish Network (which i think sometime soon is gonna buy Direct TV, so you might wanna get DISH) and my two dishes aren't affected by rain at all. Its only rained hard down here (So Cal) about twice, but both times, i didn't get signal loss.

Also, i used to sell this stuff and we'd sell them to people living in apartments, and they'd come right back the next day returning them because the managers of the apartment wouldn't let them put it up. Some places are really anal about this stuff, some it might help to ask first.

Your only concern is whether or not the aparment complex will allow you to install the dish. I don't know where the laws currently reside on that subject, as I've had my own home since DirecTV has been available. But once upon a time, your apartment manager had every right to disallow you from mounting the dishes on the apartment building, and I don't see why that would have changed in recent years.

Hmm. If it turns out that the correct angle to mount it is outside on my patio, I was thinking of just stashing it in between some shrubs and such. I didn't ask them yet and there's nothing in anything I signed that states "no dish", so they really can't make me follow anything I didn't sign. I wouldn't be bolting it into the stucco or anything.

Lots of things to think about here. I'm *kinda* leaning towards cable just because I can split it off to my hearts content and get all the analog channels on my PC's TV card, additional TV's, etc.

Apartment boards are full of a-holes that have nothing better to do than bitch about everything. I bought a non-penetrating flat roof mount for my dish. It takes 6 cinder blocks to hold it down so the wind won't blow the dish down. The dish faces directly into the barrier around the deck and still works. I had to do this after they threatened me with legal action for fastening my dish to a support post for the deck above. Here's a pic i just too (dark out, had to adjust levels on the pic):

IIRC, azimuth is the vertical angle between the horizon and the satellite. But then 228 degrees doesn't make any sense.

Rain fade does apply to Uplinks (sending signals to a transponder on the satellite.) Splitting a signal may increase the chance of signal loss on downlink if it is a poor split.

The dish faces directly into the barrier around the deck and still works.

No, it doesn't.

With those small dishes, the LNB is off-center from the dish, so the signal path isn't directly in front of the dish. It's actually a lot higher than you think. It works like this:

Yes, I understand how it works. It's just odd to see it in such a position and actually get signal.

Check out this link - it is the FCC fact sheet on installing antennas. Some good information about having satellite in an apartment building.

Good link, thanks.

Basically what it says is that if you want to install it on your apartment's patio-balcony (as pictured in the photo earlier in the thread), they have no right to stop you, and you're golden. Cool.

However, you probably won't be allowed to bolt it outside the window on the outer wall of the apartment, the FCC document specifically says this isn't protected by the rule.

As far as installing it on the patio is concerned, I have read that a good way to do it is to mount your antenna pole in one of those large 25-gallon paintbuckets , and fill the bucket with concrete. Then you have a very-hard-to-move-accidentally single large base that should sit very nicely on your patio without budging. Bolt the antenna to that pole, and you're all set.

You could even set that inside one of those large clay planter pots, fill that with soil, and plant flowers around the dish.

My neighbor has their Dish Network dish in the cement pot. There have been times I come home and the dish is on its side from being blown over by wind. If you can use the non-penetrating flat roof mount without signal loss, that is the way to go. You can get it from Parts Express.

One other option for installing the dish in an apartment building is to ask the installers (if you get it professionally done) if they have the industrial strength suction cups that attach to a window. This will allow you to have the dish on a window without having to drill any holes in an outer wall. There is an additional cost for this type of installation but it helps you get around drilling holes in an apartment wall.

So, now what do you do with the wire?? Well, those installation companies also have 'flat' wires that can run into the apartment at the base of the window while still allowing the window to close and lock securely.

The only reason I know all of this is I was having a big problem with my management company about installing the dish so I did a little research. There are ways around all those limitations they try to impose on you...

If all else fails you can go the route of this determined individual and install your dish inside the apartment.

You have that nice railing....! You can get 2 boards of wood, put one on either side of your railing and put some bolts through a hole in the railing and then mount the dish right on the boards. More secure that way.

Calvin

I used to have Dish network and I never ever had it go out in any sort of weather. Rain fade, what's that? Now that I live in a complex where dish is not allowed, Cable service goes out at least once or twice a week. I get artifacts and crap and no service lots of times.

Calvin

You have that nice railing....!
Umm, ok. I wouldn't exactly call it nice. I don't think that railing has been changed since the place was built in the early 70s.

and put some bolts through a hole in the railing
I don't know where you condo is, but I would like to move there. I have a non penetrating mount because altering anything on that deck is against the rules. The only things you are allowed to fasten to the deck are hooks for hanging plants and flag holders.

You are also nlot allow to have anything hanging over your air space. Once the flag-displaying holiday is over, you must take your flag down. So, even if i were allowed to make a hole in the railing, the dish would likely be just outside my airspace. Damn these cuffs are tight.

Oddly, I have pre-rain fade. I can tell when a storm is coming when my DirecTV starts getting choppy. Usually by the time it's overhead, my reception is fine again. I don't usually see any of that, though, unless it's a pretty heavy rain. It doesn't necessarily have to be a thunderstorm, but it's got to be coming down pretty hard (again, not necessarily here ).

Bitt, usually heavy rain is preceded by heavy winds... perhaps your dish is just getting tossed around a bit?

I don't think that's it (we get pretty strong winds on occasion outside rain, and it doesn't seem to be affected then), though I suppose it's possible.

I've always heard that the DirecTV guys would boost power to areas that had heavy atmospheric coverage (don't know if this is an old wives' tale or not), and I figured that their algorithm for that didn't take into account the fact that their signal would be shooting in at an angle, and not from directly above. But that's probably more just an insane rationale for a weird problem. It still goes out less than cable ever did, and I refuse to pay Time-Warner any more money than I have to.

(I used to have a problem that if it rained in the summer my DBS went out for a good while, but not in the winter. I finally figured out that it was weighing down the leaves on the big trees around me and making them droop into the LoS to the satellite from my dish. Moved the dish 20 feet or so and it solved the problem.)

Just to echo the others here, I have lost signal 3 times to my Dish Network system over the past 3 years. Each time, it's followed by me walking outside with a broom to knock the 6 or so inches of snow away from the dish. Keep in mind this has only been snow that could actually stick to the dish, and there are things you can spray on them to help prevent this if you frequently get snow.

Rain has never dropped my signal below usable in the summer time. The big thing Dish warns about winter install though is any trees in the way could block out the signal come spring time with new leaves.

And yes, go the DBS route, it's well worth it to avoid cable companies.

just my 2c.
I am a brit living in Texas who has not had the years of 'the cable company is crap' indoctrination. But have lived in the UK where cable is non-existant and the satellite companies are the only game in town, so most of them are crap.
By comparison, the US companies seem to be light years ahead in customer service.
The only problem I have with cable is the lack of choice. If you have a good one, like Time Warner here in Austin then its great. But if you are stuck with a bad one, like Comcast in NJ then you are screwed.
A few examples CC never turned up for an appointment let alone be ontime. TW have shown up on time every time they have been.
CC rarely answered the phone and never pleasantly, but TW answer in a few rings and I have always spoken to well trained folk.
TW also has controllable Movies and HBO so you can fast forward and rewind etc.

Conversely I have never had anything but hassle from satellite in the UK so wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!

Just my 2c and experience so far.......

Just so that you know, Time Warner cable in Austin is not necessarily going to be the same as TW cable elsewhere. Most of the time, they just purchased a local cable company, and not much changed. For example, here in Raleigh, there is TW cable, and it's better than when it was Cablevision, but it's still pretty bad.

DirecTV's page says my Azimuth angle is 228. I'm guessing that measures 228 degrees from due north, but in which direction?
That's correct. You should measure this angle clockwise from North.

I'm just concerned about finding a good place for the dish, I read that putting it in a window can cause problems

There is a special polycarbonate material I read about a few years back that has a significantly lower signal degredation characteristic than glass. Due to the inconvenience of having the dish indoors and the likeliehood of needing a larger dish to compensate for signal loss it is not a popular alternative.

One thing that may help you is to drive around the area and look at where other peoples dishes point to get a feel for where you would need to point yours.

As I thought Bitt, if you have crappy local cable co then nothing can stop you going to satellite.
Thats my big problem with cable, no choice. Which is fine if they are good but not the other way round.
In England, when satellite first arrived, we had one choice, Sky or broadcast TV.
Not much choice
Although broadcast digital TV in the UK is light years ahead of the US.

If you use the two boards and a bolt method, it doesn't damage the railing. But it sounds like regulations are pretty tight there in your country. Time to move back to the United States.

:-p

Calvin

The DTV satellite (multiple satellites, really) it about 200 miles due south of texas. And I honestly can't remember the last times I lost reception. Oh wait, yeah, hurricane Allison. Then again, I get 98-99% on most transponders. I will say this: when setting up for the first time, using the signal meter can be a pain if you don't know which transponder you should be watching. Since they went to spot-beaming about 3 mos ago, some of the transponders will appear "dead" to you. They aren't, they just aren't pointing at you.

Mason

Well, thanks to all for the interesting and informative discussion.

Sadly, I went with digital cable anyway. Reasons:
1. I live in a 1st floor apartment, so no matter how I mount my dish, someone can intentionally or accidentally mess with it, knock it over, etc.
2. I live below one of the model apartments, which means the rental agents and apartment landlords will be walking around my place all the time showing the model to potential renters. I know the law is on my side if I put the dish on my own patio, but I didn't want to have to fight them and have them try to find some convenint "other reason" to evict me.
3. To add all the channels I get on digital cable now (at least the ones I care about) would have actually cost more than my cable service. Factor in adding a 2nd DirecTV box for my other TV, and it just wasn't cost effective.

My next thought is that I might want to get a ReplayTV 4000... I'm going to start another thread to ask for comments from anyone who owns one, rather than have this one split off into another tangent.

I think you will regret choosing digital cable, but that is just my opinion. It just doesn't seem to have the options DirecTV has for movies and sports. But if you are not into either of those, you won't mind at all having digital cable.

Well, between movies and sports, sports is more important to me. As far as I can tell, all DirecTV offers that digital cable doesn't have is the NFL Sunday Ticket, and the only NFL games I really care that much about (Eagles games) are already on the normal channels anyway. I don't care about the Bengals playing the Chiefs. Digital cable offers the NBA and NHL packages, which are more important.. And as I was flipping through the channels (*s*l*o*w*l*y due to digital cable's crappy channel guide and crappy cable box which slows things down) I saw an insane amount of sports channels like ESPNNow, ESPNNews, etc. which I never had before. The local Fox Sports Net channels aren't of much interest to me, so I wasn't going to go with that package (besides they black out all the basketball/hockey games so they can sell you the season packages.)

I think only regret so far with digital cable are the stupid clunky box which takes 2-3 seconds to flip channels. But it was a much easier install than DirecTV would have been. At least channel-flipping on my other TV's is fast since I'm not using their dumb box.

I wish they'd send out a firmware upgrade or something to make the damn thing faster flipping between channels. What do they have, an 8088 inside those damn things?

Yeah I was going to mention that the channel flipping sucks, but then I thought maybe not all boxes are like the one I had. I guess they are. Well, for me it's all about hockey, so I agree that the center ice package is essential, which is on digital cable. I hope it works out for you.

New Hughes and RCA boxes flip very quickly. TiVo boxes move like the dead.

TiVo boxes move like the dead

Is that because of the 2 sec. long pipeline between the ins and outs?

Yes, but, honestly, if you get a TiVo you won't ever flip again. I don't have the time to watch the stuff it records for me as it is.

I wish they'd send out a firmware upgrade or something to make the damn thing faster flipping between channels. What do they have, an 8088 inside those damn things?

No, they've got a 4004 in there, with a hamster in a wheel providing power.