Check out this story here. This story takes place in Texas where people can practically walk around with an anti-aircraft gun on thier shoulder. The scarey part is that no one is saying "why the hell was that guy driving with a gun?" A law was just passed in Michigan allowing concealed weapons... I think I may pack up and head towards the Ambassador bridge..

Anyone have Bruno's phone number? I need to know of any good Mexican restaurants...

As much as I dislike the idea of "just anyone" owning a gun, and as much as I think that such a death was senseless and bad...

If a man at a stoplight walked up to my car and smashed in my driver's side window while I was sitting in the driver's seat, I would think that I'd be completely within my rights to defend myself. The act of walking up to my car and smashing in my window is a clear threat to my life, I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way.

I'm sure the story is more complicated than that, though. We're only hearing the story third- or fourth-hand. There were probably circumstances leading up to the incident that gray the issue. But just on the face of it, I think my statement above stands.

One thing that was brought up in that other discussion thread is the usual people-who-don't-know-about-guns statement of "Why didn't he shoot-to-wound the guy, he didn't have to kill him." These statements are always patently absurd. The purpose of a handgun is to kill another human being, although hopefully only in self-defense. Once you have decided to use the gun, assuming that you really are protecting your own life in that situation, it would be folly to try to shoot-to-wound your attacker. Someone who is trying to kill you will continue to do so even when wounded, with redoubled efforts. So if you're going to pull that trigger, it is only logical to "make it count".

To answer your specific question...

The scarey part is that no one is saying "why the hell was that guy driving with a gun?"

Precisely to defend himself against freaks who would try to walk up to his car and smash his window and threaten his life. And as I said, as much as I find the idea distasteful, it is completely within the rights of the gun owner to do so.

One of my best friends has a concealed weapon permit because he is a sound engineer and travels with hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment. A single carjacking could net the perpetrator a small fortune, while instantly bankrupting my friend. I respect his right to protect himself in this manner. He is a level-headed person, very intelligent, and I do not in any way feel unsafe when I am in his presence and he is carrying his weapon. He is also not the kind of person who is likely to involve himself in a road-rage-related incident as described above. So I am not particulary worried about him becoming a news headline.

Good points.

If the driver's side window had been smashed out - that would be different. But it was the passanger's window. Even if he had reeeeeally long arms, he wasn't trying to joke the guy. I think the man just wanted to mess up his car. That's hardly self defense.

I think people that carry large sums of cash (people who have to make nightly deposits) or property (as in your friend's case) are perfectly justified to carry a weapon.

Personally, I think that most normal people, if they follow common sense would never have to carry a weapon.

Smashing windows is stupid too.

Smashing windows is stupid too.

My thoughts exactly.

Did they say this was in Texas? If so, I would think that the guy who smashed the window (and was subsequently killed for it) is a Darwin Award candidate. You don't go threatening Texans and expect to get hospitality in return.

Then again, didn't they say that the window-smasher was driving with his daughter? Then it's too late, he's already passed on the stupidity gene.

Hehe, true. Yeah, it was in a Texas section of another site. I was looking something up (you can find out what I was searching for if you examine the url closely) and came across it. In all seriousness, the one I feel bad for is the daughter... sigh.

The act of walking up to my car and smashing in my window is a clear threat to my life, I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way.

My immediate assumption in that circumstance would be that he was going to steal my stereo or wallet or whatever I had on the passenger seat at the time. That's the kind of thing that has been known to happen around here (well, not in Cambridge ). Even with the media hysteria about road rage, it would not occur to me that the person wanted to kill me. If he clearly wanted to cause me harm, or damaged my beloved car then I may well lose my temper and in that case I would be GLAD not to be carrying a gun. In the cold light of day I would not consider the death penalty to be an appropriate response.

This is a perception that seems to be incredibly common in the US and not very common in the UK. If someone looks like they're going to start a fight with you here, you do not immediately escalate that in your mind to attempted murder. You may have no doubt that they want to harm you, so you either run away at great speed or kick them very hard in the balls depending on how you fancy your chances. In the US it seems as though the first thing to go through someone's head is that their aggressor is going to try to kill them - and if you have a gun, your first reaction may well be to pull it. This would seem to be a self fulfilling state of affairs.

I blame Hollywood.

Rob

This would seem to be a self fulfilling state of affairs.

Good point.

If I was trying to break a guy's window, I would break the passenger side window because it would be the side away from traffic. If I had to back up far enough to make a swing like that, i could get hit by a car.


Calvin

And you'd clearly just be involved in damaging property - not attempted murder.

I don't know what the law is in Texas, but in Louisiana if you are apparently being car-jacked you can shoot the guy dead and walk away scotch-free. And I like it like that. I believe you have the right to protect your property. And I guaruntee you we have less car-jackings this way. So don't go breaking people's windows.

Sure I feel sorry for the little girl, but not just because her dad got shot, but because she had such a foolish father.

If you don't hurt other people, you won't get hurt. And if someone does try to hurt you, then you are free to defend yourself. When you take away someone's right to defend themselves, people lose respect for eachother. Think about it, if you declaw a cat you're not gonna respect him as much as before (in a physical sense.)

That's "scott free".

Yes sir, Officer.

No but seriously, thanks for correcting me. I like to know when I'm wrong.

I definitely think the guy was incredibly stupid. Again, the circumstances may have been different, but according to his account, the father was an idiot and the shooter wasn't thinking.

Honestly, would you think a guy in a Mercedes was trying to kill you?

There really must be something else to this story because I can't conceive of anyone thinking it was a good idea, even in the heat of road rage, to smash someone's window in simply for tailgating. Obviously he forgot the umpteen different ways they teach you in driver's ed on how to safely escape a tailgater.

The whole situation is stupid.

Maybe he spilled his espresso.

It's a self feeding cycle. When you know other people are walking around with guns, it's much easier to jump to the conclusion that someone smashing your window might have a gun as well and might attempt to use it on you. When you live in a society where guns are fairly rare, and indeed the police don't even carry them, then your fear of being shot is a tad less i'd say, therefore you don't have that thought pop in your head of someone attacking you having a gun... you probably just figure you might get in a good fight.

Guns begat guns etc...

Honestly, would you think a guy in a Mercedes was trying to kill you?

If he had no neck, was dressed in an Italian suit, and answered to the name "Guido", then the Merc would simply complete the picture and reinforce that fear.

I dunno, what did the guy use to smash the window? A crowbar, a very large rock, what? If someone came at me with a crowbar, even from the passenger side of the car, I would feel my life being threatened.

I seem to recall that the car in question was a CR-V. My wife drives a CR-V, and honestly, there's little difference in distance and perceived threat to the driver, regardless of which side the attacker's coming from. Those things are not very wide at all.

You know what happens when you assume?

Frankly, someone who decides to live with causing someone else physical harm isn't going to care about your theory. They're going to think about what they need to get what they want, and guns are a lot scarier than fists. You can run away from fists and blunt objects.

However, I don't feel that it's a reason to carry a gun yourself or use it.

You know what happens when you assume?

No, what?

I'm assuming that he assumed you knew.

Ok, the real reason I want to move to Canada is for the babes with French accents, the beer and better hockey coverage on channel 9.

Don't forget the donuts.

Calvin

Is the Canada thing because they aren't allowed to have any firearms over there?

French accents??? Boy Brad, you're a long way from French accents in this part o' the country....here the accents are mainly Carribean and East Asian

I met a few from Montreal last summer. They are pseudo-French but they won't admit it!

Actually, my "first" was from Techumpse, Ont.... way back when. So I know the accent quite well. Hell, I'm only 20 minutes from the border! :P

Ah, yes. Tim Horton's. I've seen a few around in Dayton, Ohio where I work. I'll have to stop in some time and try them out.

If you don't hurt other people, you won't get hurt.

Oh, yeah. Sure.

Nobody ever got hurt by stray bullets flying around in a drive-by shooting.

Nobody ever got hurt when some clod with a blood alcohol level of .30% crashed into their car.

Nobody ever got hurt when he rattled the doorknob on "his" apartment, only finding out when bullets came through the door that his apartment was actually in the (similar-looking) building next door.

No clerk ever got hurt when somebody held up a liquor store.

Nobody ever got hurt when... oh never mind.

Just where do you go to buy your rose-colored glasses, anyway?

tanstaafl.

Hey Laura

You'll have to make a trip to Ontario sometime....the Tim's in the states just aren't the same I'm afraid. Don't be fooled by imitators ha ha

"I'm an American. I demand the right to carry a gun"

"What for?"

"Protection!"

"Protection from what?"

"People with guns"

Or:

American citizen - "I need a gun for protection"

"Protection from what?"

"Americans"

Citizen of civilised country: "I need a gun for protection"

"Protection from what?"

"Americans"

Or:

Glock 9MM - $735

Honda Accord - $16000

Human life - worthless

God. Americans and their culture of homicide as a rational response to day-to-day life.

Patrick.

(I know a lot of americans and generally respect other peoples religion, but gun worship is a bit much.)

Being Canadian didn't help those poor sods killed by American 'friendly' fire today. Just a thought.

K-Mart.

Ummm ... actually, that's ``scot-free''. Unless you're also a big Mister Miracle fan.

So effectively you're saying that theft should attract the death sentance, and that the victim should act as judge, jury and executioner.

I used to have views like that when I was a kid, but I'm pleased to say I got over them.

Rob

Bitt, I thought that Scott Free was from some guy named Scott (last name) who "got off" for something due to a technicality... I should have paid more attention in high school..

EDIT: Any btw, those were Canadian soldiers, not civilians. It is tragic for sure. Unfortunately, this stuff happens a lot because of the sheer volume of military exercises that are conducted everyday. Thankfully, it happens far less than it used to.

There are two reasons that Canada can offord to have such a light military (IMO). The first is because Canada has virtually no enemies (the whole Terrance and Phillip thing is water under the bridge). This is partly because Canada isn't in a "power position" so they do not have to engage in foreign policy that conflicts with other powers. Now, while the US has certainly had some foreign policy blunders, if you look at things in the context of the cold-war, the "big picture" makes more sense. The cold war that most of us grew up in was quite stale compared to that of the 50's and 60's.

But the second reason (again IMO) that Canada can have such a light military is because it neighbors the USA. The border between the US and Canada is the longest (in mileage) non-militarized border in the entire world. Not only would a foreign power have to cross an ocean to attack Canada, they would have to get past the USA. And if anyone ever attacked Canada (or the UK or other NATO nations such as Germany) the US would respond with immediate action (with the support of the attacked nation). So Canada sort of has a proxy military. And why we keep bailing France out of messes when they turn a cheek to us, I have no idea (and I'm 25% French), but I assume it is because we were just affraid that the UK was next.

How's that for steering this Off-Topic AND generating Flame Bait!

Ouch! The corrector stands corrected!

So effectively you're saying that theft should attract the death sentance, and that the victim should act as judge, jury and executioner.

From my, admittedly very shallow, understanding of Texas law, that is pretty much the case. You not only have the right to defend your life, but also your property, with deadly force.

Good? Bad? Right? Wrong? Well, I'm not sure. Their state, they make the laws.
Generally crime is declining in the US. Interestingly enough, the level of violent crimes is generally lower in what's known as "shall issue" states (unless there's a specific reason like mental illness, prior convictions etc, a concealed carry license is yours for the asking - and normally a gun class and proficiency test.), compared to states that doesn't issue such licenses or are very restrictive about it. The states that have the largest drop in violent crime rate are the ones that recently instituted "shall issue" laws. Quite well documented by, IIRC, John Lott in "More guns, less crime" Here's what a google search returns. Usenet newsgroups talk.politics.guns, rec.guns and alt.politics.usa.constitution.gun-rights all seem to have many references too.
AFAIK noone has been able to refute his data, though many in the anti gun movement have tried.

/Michael

Here is the link to the story in the Houston Chronicle. Interestingly, the guy who got shot (after blocking the guy with his Mercedes) was in a coma about a year prior. "Family members told Peters that Peacock, a stockbroker, had been in a coma for a period of time about a year ago. " You have to wonder where that came from. Another interesting quote is "Vinger added, "The answer to road rage is in the mirror. You can't fix what others are doing. So fix what you're doing.""

For what it's worth, every law enforcement offical I know vigorously supports the concealed weapon permit, which always suprised me.

Where the hell do you live? Every cop around here (that I've talked to) says it is crap.

Really? Texas here. What about you? I'm telling you it stunned me to hear them say it. I mean vigorously!

I thought that Scott Free was from some guy named Scott (last name) who "got off" for something due to a technicality... I should have paid more attention in high school.

Well, there was a very famous man named Dred Scott whose later life centered around his struggle to escape slavery, and marks one of the most embarrassing legal cases in United States history. He sued in federal court to become a free citizen based on the fact that he has lived for significant periods of time in free states. When the case eventually got to the Supreme Court, the court found not only against Mr. Scott, but that, as a slave, he didn't even have the right to bring a case in federal court. The decision also voided the Missouri Compromise, which had prohibited slavery in new states north of Missouri. All of this was likely a significant impetus to the US Civil War.

But Mr. Scott was never granted his freedom by the US judicial system. He was eventually freed by his owner, only to die a year later of tuberculosis. So I don't think that using him as a frame of reference for freeness is appropriate.

Not that you suggested that this was what you based this on. But it's the only Scott case that I can think of.

Hey Brad

In light of the fact that I've just retired after a twenty year career in the Canadian Infantry Corps, I would say in my professional opinion that your're way off on the reasons Canada has such a pathetic Armed Forces today....However I won't get into those reasons here in this forum. If we ever have a beer sometime, I'll offer you some of my insights if you're interested....

And for all here, those poor guys that were killed yesterday were members of my old Regiment (Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) and if I didn't retire when I did, undoubtedly I'd be in Afghanastan right now myself...

Rest In Peace Comrads.... you've done your duty.

John

John, I'd love to get your opinion on that. I've talked to a few people here and there about it (1/3 of my co-workers are contracted in from a company in Canada.) I have to admit I have a few gaping holes in my knowledge of Canadian politics.. We are so damn close to one another we have to get a beer sometime soon.

I'm glad you retired when you did. (That was just recently wasn't it? I remember your Bosnia customs crisis...)

g' night

Well, certainly France has a long history with the United States. My passport is in English and French for some reason, etc. Wish I knew more about this.

Calvin

More information on the victim... Has an arrest record in Harris County for DWI and spent 45 days in jail and also driving with a suspended license. Two separate offenses. My speculation is he was drunk at the time of the incident.

No mention in the press about a daughter being in the car.

What really got me going was the story a little further down the page posted by: wrx_in_efx

That stikes me as pure madness!

How so?

Well the guy was pretty dumb for ramming the mustang, eventhough the other guys deserved it.