Decided to see if I can make a little cash on one of my backups. Will ship worldwide...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1349970183

I hope you asked both Tony Fabris and Mark Lord for permission to use those photos... It's not right for someone to be making extra money off people's free work.

And a fair warning to anyone out there who ever try to link to an image on RioCar.org for things like this, I will ensure the auction is either canceled, or the image is changed to something else.

I am sending an e-mail to the auctioneer at this time, asking him to remove the image from the auction. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I had not clicked on his auction link so I had not noticed the unauthorized usage of the image.

Not that I plan on using any of these images anyways but..

If you toss pictures into the public domain (post them to a newsgroup/website) with no copyright notice do you really have any right to be upset when others use them?

The auction is for a pretty reasonable price and the pictures are mearly giving the purchaser an idea what they are getting who does it hurt?

Would I get in trouble for linking to riocar.com on an auction as the community behind this player could boost the bid?

-NiCKEL

If you toss pictures into the public domain (post them to a newsgroup/website) with no copyright notice do you really have any right to be upset when others use them?

Posting an image on the web does not make it public domain. From ebay's own guidelines:

"Contrary to popular belief, the fact that material is posted on the world wide web does not mean it is in the "public domain" or otherwise free to be taken, copied or used by others. Creators of web content probably have copyright, trademark and other rights in the material they create. Copying, modifying and possibly linking to content created by others could expose you to legal liability.

No Copying Allowed! When you prepare your listings you generally should use only material (text, photographs, etc.) and trademarks/names that you created or own yourself or licensed from the owners.

No Unauthorized Linking to Photos! You cannot link to somebody else's picture (so it appears in your listing) without the owner's permission."

If he does not remove the image, I will begin the process of contacting ebay to have the auction nullified, based solely on ebay's own usage guidelines for its members.

Well as you would note the disclaimer says
"Creators of web content probably have copyright"
and
"possibly linking"

It is in eBay's best interests to warn in the brodest possible sense as to avoid having liability themselves.

Of course IANAL and I don't have a problem with you compaining to eBay.

I was just a bit taken by it. I thought that under a community group like this; were people take parts of what others do, polish it a little, possibly throw a clock in it, and pass it on; that copying stuff would be the norm not the exception.

I used the riocar images of a remote and fashia in Lojack, should they be removed?

Is RioCar's poliy/opinion or copyright and redistribution covered in the FAQ?

-NiCKEL

P.S. I am not trying to be a bastard or anything I am just curious as to were the lines are drawn.

The page it probably came from does have a copyright notice on the bottom. But, at least he's hosting the pic on his own server. Still wrong, but nothing so terrible the guy should have to change the auction. Just my opinion, but Tony is in a different position than me. I would be pretty mad if someone posted pics of my install on eBay.

The reason he should change the auction is because the pic misrepresents what he is selling. If I was selling a used Honda Civic on eBay, I wouldn't post pics of some other dude's ricer in my auction. The person buying this might be disappointed when he discovers that applying the button hack is so difficult.

I was just a bit taken by it. I thought that under a community group like this; were people take parts of what others do, polish it a little, possibly throw a clock in it, and pass it on; that copying stuff would be the norm not the exception.

I think the difference with this is the person is using the material to make money and with the software projects they are not.

I also hate it when people sell stuff on ebay and don't take their own pictures because I like to see the item I am buying. At least they could have used a picture of an unmodified empeg.

Well if that is the case, that this is purley an issue because money is involved, it improves the situation somewhat.

In regards to posting pictures of a different item than the one your selling, I have done this myself on a couple of auctions but definetly agree that the picture used should be a fair representation of the item for sale. Even though the picture was marked as being of a different unit I could see how it would be misleading.

As for the making money factor, the moded fascia picture is of an item being _sold_ by a list member. Doesn't showing it off on ebay just provide more exposure, and therefore, more sales for the person making it?

He wasn't attempting to charge a premium for having the addon software and fascia he was simply informing the buyer of the available options.

I thought that under a community group like this (...) that copying stuff would be the norm not the exception.

Normally, I would agree with you. This particular instance, however, is not in the community sharing spirit and is explicitly against ebay's user guidelines. I'm taking a stand on this particular instance because I've seen other ebay auctions which contain similar (and also worse) abuses, and I think an example should be set.

Also, as mentioned before, I think it's wrong to show a modded player for an auction which isn't selling a modded player.

Also, I've seen auctions where all they're selling is public-domain information... "Buyer receives a link and instructions on how to download porn from the internet." If I'm not mistaken, these are also against ebay guidelines, and showing a picture of a modded player and saying "Buyer will receive links on how to do this to the player if he wants to" is dangerously close to this line.

Well, i guess first of all, that this is a somewhat or prety much a debatable topic. =) Yea blah blah you know, but personally, i don't think what he did was right. When i browse around eBay, and see stuff like that, it disgusts me and i boycott them. But there are billions of others out there that get sucked in by these 'wow' factor auctions and get all crazy... jack up the prices and etc. To me that's just sorta a anti-friendly community thing here... and my opinion is he's trying to make some profit. It's the way things go i guess, but i like how we get to share resources like this for the love of hobbies like this... not for profit.

Oh but then in contrast to what i just said, there are actually some pros to it! i realize that but i ain't going to blabber on. i don't post a lot but this post got me to try and express my opinion with my crappy english skills. =)

I just have to add also if the seller cared about the community aspect of the BBS why wouldn't they have just offered it for sale here instead of ebay

I might have to change my back to my old sig with a little change:

Old:
Buying a tuner for $400 off of Ebay is supporting terrorism.

New:
Showing a modded Empeg while selling an unmodded Empeg on Ebay is not supporting terrorism. They would rather have the guy who turned himself into a car seat.

In reply to:

---

To me that's just sorta a anti-friendly community thing here... and my opinion is he's trying to make some profit. It's the way things go i guess, but i like how we get to share resources like this for the love of hobbies like this... not for profit.

---

And to all,
Since when did trying to turn a profit become wrong? Do you think the empeg team wasn't making a profit? Do you think Darkstorm isn't making a profit? It bugs that the same people who get mad when someone says that the empeg isn't worth $1500 to them also get mad when someone tries to sell their player for half that. Geez, do you want the guy to give you the player or you won't be his friend? If you don't think the price is reasonable, don't buy it. There's no reason to rag on him about it. If you buy stock, and the share price goes up, is it so wrong to sell it for what it's worth?

And as for the picture thing, sure he didn't take the picture and you (tony) should have some say in it, but I just don't see how it's that big of a deal. it's kinda like a kid bringing a ball over to someone's house but not letting anyone else play with it for the sake that it's HIS ball. I think if you put something up on the internet, you should expect to share it at least to some extent. If you put a water fountain up in a park, don't expect other people not to use it.

I'm not trying to incite a riot here; it's just my thoughts.

Do you think the empeg team wasn't making a profit?

*cough* No comment!

Rob

It's not wrong to make a profit.... this guy stole pictures of a modded player... A: He stole the picture... B: The player he's selling isn't modded... First used the picture without permission and used it to falsely advertise what he was selling (granted he does have written that it isn't the picture shown, why not just use a picture of a normal empeg).

Like I said nothing wrong with turning a profit... I could probably sell translucent buttons; I've made the molds... I've got the materials... Hell... I could even sell all the parts for all the hacks being that I have all the digikey part numbers, minus the volume knob board. But I won't because that is someone else’s work and idea. If he wants to sell it and make a grotesque profit that is great... at least properly advertise the product he's selling and take his own damn picture!

I used the riocar images of a remote and fashia in Lojack, should they be removed?

I thought I gave permission for that. If not, then consider this it. I'm fine with Lojack using images off the RioCar.org site, as it;s a great resource to the community. The main problem I had with the above auction is that he us using the work of Tony and Mark to try to make more money, when neither Tony or Mark have charged this community for their services. And the hack is misleading with no normal pictures of what is being sold.

Is RioCar's poliy/opinion or copyright and redistribution covered in the FAQ?

No, it's covered at the bottom of every page generated on that site:

Copyright © 2001-2002 riocar.org
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters.

An e-mail address is there as well for anyone to contact me with on any questions.

To answer the linking question, do what you will. I don't believe in trying to destroy the <A HREF tag like some people do. Just don't steal the content. Ironicially, many of the early auctions did link to RioCar.org when on the front page were stories detailing cheeper methods of obtaining the empeg. So many of the auctions were just blindly copying each other, and it probably hurt them more then they know, as my logs show plenty of referrals from eBay.

okay, I come in this morning thinking that many people are interested in my auction, but i have a line full of flames with some supporters.

First, I will apologize here to Tony and Mark for using a picture from their website without asking permission. I have replaced the picture with just a generic rio car picture. (I'm not even sure If am allowed to use that, someone let me know and I will take it out)

My opinions which may differ from yours is that I was using my auction as free advertising for the neon faces and lighted buttons. I am very certain that there are 100s of people that have an empeg that never check this site or riocar.org to know that these are available. I do not believe I was using false advertising saying that you would get an empeg with with the following accessories, just showing what it is capable of being upgraded to as it was stated in the auction.

I think if I would have asked permission first, this wouldn't really be a problem, so now I learned my lesson. I hope everyone's cool with this and we can get on with our lives.

I didn't mean to slam you, for that I apologize my response was more a retort to the "whats wrong with making a profit remark".... I didn't mean to paint you as a jerk trying to falsely advertise something, stealing pics and what not, it seems to me by your response you simply didn't realize it would be such a big deal, like I noted you had in bold writing that it wasn't the player shown... but there are a lot of silly ebayer's that would bid on something like that just because of the pretty picture...

Thanks, Darwin.

To answer some other points brought up in this thread:

- I never took the extreme position that the pictures were "stolen". Simply that they were used without permission.

- I do not deny anyone the right to make a profit. I see no problem with using the ebay service to sell items, provided that the ebay guidelines are followed.

I have replaced the picture with just a generic rio car picture. (I'm not even sure If am allowed to use that ... )

All that hard work dismissed off hand as a generic picture *sob* I'm not going to let you use it now!

Rob

PS Just kidding, good luck with the sale.

Since when did trying to turn a profit become wrong?

Yz, I think you missed the point. Again.

Nobody is saying that making a profit is wrong. What is wrong is making a profit by misrepresenting the item for sale and for using unethical practices in promoting the sale.

Do you think the empeg team wasn't making a profit?

They were making such a huge profit that they had to sell themselves to Sonic Blue in a last (ultimately unsuccessful) attempt to keep the player in production.

sure he didn't take the picture ... but I just don't see how it's that big of a deal.

Sigh... now how did I know you were going to say that, Paul? Let's just say that you and the vast majority of participants on this bbs have radically differing viewpoints concerning personal morality, and leave it at that...

tanstaafl.

So we're cool then?

What's this "we" stuff, Kemosabe?

There's a lotta love here...

Can you feel it? Can you?

How I really found out about the neon face plate was from an earlier auction like this. Also from all of the other empeg auctions on ebay anybody with any sense of what they are buying (unless they are impulse buyers) added with the note at the bottom of the picture would realize that the original empeg looks a little different. Another thing, if I buy something from a wholesale company and sold it through ebay I would have it dropshipped directly to the buyer. Doing it this way I would not be able to take my own pictures of the product. In other cases you have no way of getting in contact with the person who originally had rights to the photo. In this case though I can understand one getting a little aggitated without permission. Sometimes though, I think people should chill out a little bit.

The Mad Man himself

What the hell does kemosabe mean?

never seen The Lone Ranger? Toto always called him Kemo Sabe ...

This article says it means anything from Trusted Friend, to Faithful Friend, to Trusted Scout.

My purpose for using it was as a reference to the old gag:

"Indians! Looks like we're in trouble, Tonto."
"What you mean WE, Kemosabe?"

Toto is the little dog from Kansas. Tonto is the indian guy. Tonto means "idiot" by the way, in various european languages. Sad really.

Calvin

It's possible the writers of the show just made kemosabe up.

The article I linked was BY the writer of the show, and he cleary states that it wasn't made up and that it's got a specific meaning.

hmmmm........he could be lying.....