I think this thread has lost touch with reality somewhat.

1. 99.99% of empeg thefts will result in the player NEVER getting connected to the internet. I would bet serious money that almost all stolen empegs end up in a trash can.

2. If you get a lead on someone who you think has stolen your empeg it seems almost impossible to get any action (short of visiting them yourself). I have supplied names, phone numbers and even addresses of people who I'm 99% certain have stolen players (direct from empeg in this case - card fraud) to the police in three major western countries. We were rewarded only with token interest, and as far as I know none of the information was acted upon. Maybe it would be better in the case of a theft from your vehicle, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Rob

Re. point 2 - from experience, I agree totally [see my earlier post way up this thread about CC fraud].

The UK police fell way short of my initial expectations, heck we even offered to set up a product delivery against a known bad card so they could nab the thief and they were not interested at all (it's the bank's loss, hey, wait a minute no, it's the merchant's loss, ah too bad).

I'm not trying to bash the UK police here but the whole theft/fraud thing here is totally wrong.

Good point, which shows why it might be wiser to let the police do their job, but still, I think if someone steals something from you then you have a right to take it back.

In reply to:

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99.99% of empeg thefts will result in the player NEVER getting connected to the internet. I would bet serious money that almost all stolen empegs end up in a trash can.

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Yeah, that's my guess as well, which only makes the whole thing that much more annoying. I'd almost prefer having someone who knew what the hell they had on their hands to steal it...

Reminds me of the time my Apple Newton was stolen. I can still picture it sitting in some trash can somewhere. *sigh*

On the bright side imagine the poor fuckwits face as he tries to feed it a CD as a couple of people have tried with mine.

Wrong. If whoever bought that Empeg from the thief in good faith (and I don't see why this wouldn't be so when you buy something via Ebay), then the Empeg IS HIS property and WILL REMAIN his property, EVEN if the thief gets caught afterwards.

IIRC, in the UK, if you unwittingly buy a stolen car, it still belongs to the original owner. The police can take it from you and give it back to the original owner, without reimbursing you for it.

I am definitely adding the word "fuckwit" to my vocabulary!

I Totally agree with your comments about the law enforcement not being interested in stolen goods, unless it's a traffic offence they just don't care!

BUT

If someone broke into my car I'd feel personally violated and if there was any way to find out who it was then believe me I'd get the boys in the back of a truck and pay them a visit!

I work hard for my posessions and someone that smashes their way into your car with no regards for what they are doing has no values and should be stopped, even if that means using extreme force!

I think that emplode/jemplode could check serial numbers and maybe offer a little hope for crime victims, even if only to block updates or trash the hard drive of the computer trying to run the stolen goods!

Personally, I take my player out of the car every night, but I know the grief I felt when someone done thousands of pounds worth of damage to my car to steal low value accessories, probably just for beer money!

IIRC, in the UK, if you unwittingly buy a stolen car, it still belongs to the original owner. The police can take it from you and give it back to the original owner, without reimbursing you for it.

Could be, I'm not up to date on UK law. But over here it's like that. Of course, I did say when the stolen goods are bought in good faith.
A car always comes with certain documents through which you can almost immediately tell if something's fishy or not. If those documents are not ok, or they are missing completely, accompanied by an offered price that is way less than the car is worth (even second hand) then the law states that that should have rung a bell.

If it didn't and you buy the car anyway, you'll loose the protection of the "in good faith" clause, and the car can be taken away from you. ('cause the law figures "nobody can the that stupid") You'll probably even get sued yourself for fencing (is that the correct term?) stolen goods (and rightfully so I say!)

Hahahaha... I can definitely picture that!

On a related note; I had a fun time explaining the empeg to my insurance agent:

"And then there's the additional laptop hard drive that was in there..."

"...laptop hard drive...???"

The fact that I still have all my original receipts and they decided to simply reimberse me for the original purchase prices made the exercise downright enjoyable.

I am definitely adding the word "fuckwit" to my vocabulary!

Make sure to use "assmonkey", too. I'd like to see that one in greater circulation.

If your goin to use assmonkey, you have to put down one of my favorites, no talent assclown

The police need permission to enter either from the owner or a judge. They can't enter any place willy nilly. Note: The police can enter any public location without permission, such as donut shop. I point this out because you don't seem to understand the difference between a private residence and a public location owned by a private indivdual. (different) :-p

Calvin

Just Cause.

I guess it's the worst half of a halfwit?

g

True police cant, but Game Wardens can, where police have to have facts to gain warrants Game Wardens work completely on suspicion and always have the final word. It would be scary if police had that power.

I'm gonna register my empeg as a pheasant, and myself as a game warden

The Police can enter a premises on reasonable suspision of illegal acts and get an entry warrant later.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Stolen property is stolen, no matter what the buyer knows or says. There is no "good faith" law - the original owner gets the property back and the buyer is screwed.

I don't know where you get this strange idea that a buyer can keep stolen goods. Please provide a reference in law.

I'm saying this is the law in Belgium. I don't know what the law is in Canada (according to your profile that's where you're from)

I'm not going to look up the exact article in my books of criminal law because that would mean :
1) a lot of work for me
2) you wouldn't be able to verify it since I don't believe you have those books too

That, and it would be very difficult for me to provide an exact translation from dutch into English of those articles without altering their meaning (even slightly).

I guess you just have to take my word for it, if you don't believe me that's fine by me. But as I've said before, I've been dealing with these kinds of things on a daily basis for the last five years now, so I guess I do have some knowledge on the subject.

In reply to:

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no-talent assclown

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Ah...from "Office Space"...one of my favorite movies. I second that one.

Speaking of law..here's some offtopic law stories:
http://www.archervalerie.com/lawdis.html

It doesn't matter if it's in good faith or not; the buyer was receiving stolen goods (whether they knew it or not).

This has happened a lot with japanese car imports recently. People buy a jap imported car - sometimes for prices in the $40,000 range, and get it taken away by the police and returned to japan. NO compensation, unless they can sue the dealer they bought it from and get the money back. Because of the demand for fast RHD jap cars (supras, imprezas, etc) this has been happening a lot. One sensationalist TV programme was saying that up to about 25% of all the jap imports were stolen, but there was no easy way of checking the stolen registers in other countries.

Hugo

Here in Switzerland for example it does matter whether you bought it in good faith or not. If you bought in good faith you can keep it, no matter if it's been stolen before.

Marc

Hi Rob.

It doesn't matter if it's in good faith or not; the buyer was receiving stolen goods (whether they knew it or not).

Depends on what happened. If it got stolen, then you are right. However, german law seems to indicate (from the quick browsing of relevant paragraphs I just did, german law: BGB §§986-1003,1007), that there is some order in the claims to be fulfilled.

Let's say A originally owned a good, B stole it from him an C bought it from B. If this is the case, A has the right to demand the good from C. However, C has the right to hold on to the good until his claims regarding this good are fulfilled (i.e. B paid him back). Also, A has the opportunity to demand compensation for the stolen good from B, but if he does so, he looses the right to demand the good from C. Compensation for the good itself left aside, A can always demand compensation for lack of use from B.
If A's insurance already paid for the good (and as such, A got compensated for the good) and C bought the good in good faith, noone can demand the good from C, neither B nor A's insurance.

If the good was lost, and C found it, C must deliver the good back to A, but has the right to hold it back until he got 3-5% of the goods value (5% on values below 500EUR, 3% above 500EUR and for animals) plus his expenses.

If the good was lost, found by B and bought from B by C, it get's more complicated again (but similar to the first (theft) variant, except A can't demand compensation for a lack of use).

Also, if the good was lost, and C found it, C has to indicate his finding to the appropriate governmental agency. Six month from the date of indication of the finding, C gains the full rights on the good, no matter what, even if B stole the good from A and lost it.
In other words: If you buy some stolen good (even in good faith), and the original owner finds you and can proove his rights, you are loosing the good. If you find a stolen good (and don't know it was stolen), and the original owner finds you 6 month and one day after you reported your findings to the officials, you keep the good. Obviously, if you know the good was stolen for some reason, or get to know that it was stolen within 6 month after your finding (and reporting it), you can't keep it.

And I really expect that Belgian law is really similar to german law.

cu,
sven

I strongly suggest to you and Archeon that you check current law. I know this was the case in Germany too, not too long ago (well, some time within the last 10 years or something). But as you can see from my rather lengthy post above, it isn't the case anymore.

cu,
sven

I like the post about registering your empeg as a pheasant and yourself as a game warden.. for those of you ignorant to this, here in the states a Game Warden is probably THEE most powerful law enforcement officer when it comes to search and seizure. They can walk in to anyplace at anytime (I believe without a warrant even) to conduct a search and its legal.

On another note.. if I had my player stolen, had it set up for internet access and actually saw it online one day, I probably would make the trip to its location and try to steal it back. Fair is fair, there is no honor amoung thieves, turn about is fair play, what goes around comes around and all those other used up cliches.

(deleted)

But a search for what? Animals? For instance, if they see a guy that looks like a stoner, can they go in his house and look for pot based just on looks? For some reason I think their special powers may have more to do with checking for illegal hunting and fishing.

Hi Sven,

The law as I state it was still the law as it was practiced five years ago, when it was thought to me (in school) by the district attorney of one of the major cities in Belgium. I don't believe the law has changed since then. (not sure though)

Just for fun, I pulled out my book of criminal law, edition '98-'99 in which it states (roughly translated) :
Book of criminal law, as written 09/06/1867, err. 05/10/1867, err. 02/12/1964/
Book two, title IX, crimes commited to properties
art.505 :
With a prison sentence of 15 days to five year and with a fine of 26Bfr to 100.000Bfr are being punished :
1) those who fence stolen, embezzled or by criminal acts optained goods or parts of them;
2) those who have bought, traded, have in their possession, keeping, or management goods of which they should know of should have known the origin;
....

... in other words : if you're in the possession of stolen goods of which can reasonably be assumed that there was no way for you to check their origin (like with goods bought from ebay) then you can't be charged with fencing and you get to keep to goods.
When it comes to cars, that's something entirely different, because cars come with official documents, serial numbers, licence plates,... all of them are sources that can be checked. So if you get burned there that "reasonable assumption" is not in effect.

Keep things in perspective guys, after all, this discussion began about a stolen Empeg, not a stolen car.

Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm merely stating it as it's been taught to me.