Well, Bush and the Republicans Congress have shredded another amendment to the constitution:

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,61341,00.html

Basically, they couldn't get the Patriot Act II passed, so they slipped it in without anybody knowing. It allows the FBI to issue subpoenas to just about anybody it wants, and can orderthose receiving it not to discuss it. I'm sure you feel a lot safer knowing the FBI has no judicial oversight at all; basically we have just created a secret police organization.

So, let's recap, shall we:

Amendment 1: "Congress shall make no law respecting[...]the right of the people peaceably to assemble[...]" - Gone, Bush has repeatedly denied people this right if it is anywhere near him.

Amendment IV: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized". - Gone, thanks to this new law.

Amendment V: "[...]nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." - been gone for a while, with drug war forfeitures.

Amendment VI: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial,[...]" - Gone, trials can be secret and held by a tribunal, if they are held at all. Jose Padilla is an American citizen that has been locked up without access to the outside world, is not allowed to see a lawyer, and with no charges being filed, for more than a year now.

"[...]to be confronted with the witnesses against him;" - Gone, due to national security reasons, the government can deny defendants access to witnesses now.

"[...]and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense." - Also gone, Padilla has never been allowed to see his lawyer.

Amendment VIII: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." - Gone, another victim of the drug war, three strikes laws, and the death penalty.

Amendment X: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people" - Gone a long time ago. Congress can claim any powers they want nowadays.

Even if you take my very liberal bias into consideration, doesn't this scare even you conservatives?

... doesn't this scare even you conservatives?

Your linked article said that 15 Republicans broke party ranks to vote against this on Friday. They ought to be commended, but I have a feeling that might not be the reaction of the GOP.

Amendment VIII:..........the death penalty.

I would just like to point out that the death penalty was in full effect when that amendment was made. And the methods by which it was executed (no pun intended) were much more "cruel and unusual" at that time as well.

doesn't this scare even you conservatives?

Perhaps I'm confused here. I thought right wingers and conservatives were for individual and state's rights and it was the bleeding heart liberals that wanted to hand the world over to the federal government on a silver platter? Ever heard of the libertarian party?

Then again I am from the south, and we seem to run our parties backwards from the rest of the country.

But in regard to your post, yes these are attrocities and yes they do scare me. A bit.

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Even if you take my very liberal bias into consideration, doesn't this scare even you conservatives?

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Oh, hell yeah. I've been scared since this whole thing started.. A story:

I grew up an 'airline kid' - both parents worked for Eastern Airlines (anoyone remember them?) so as a kid, I got to fly around ALOT. I grew up with the idea that when you fly, you respect the attendants, pilots, and crew. Security back then was nothing - noone would've dreampt about doing anything on a plane. I've bene flying less and less ever since '89, when Eastern went under.

Last year, my work sent me down to Ft. Lauderdale to fix a client's machine. One day trip - fly in in the morning, fly out that afternoon. Everything went peachy, (even with the client. That shoulda been my first hint..) Got back to the airport, and got the biggest scare of my life. Not formyself, but for the 'freedom' we have..
I was third in line thru security. Two guys in front of me, a lady behind me, and a line behind her. I'm starting to put my things in those huge microwave trays, when someone starts pulling closed the security gates. Three guys in army drag show up out of nowhere, with machine guns at the ready. They tell us to "get back". So, we do. (I wasn't going to argue looking down the business end of /that/.)
After a few minutes, the lady behind me starts whining something about her kid, getting louder and louder. This makes the guys with firepower nervous. ("My son's in there! I need to get to him! Please! Let me thru!"). The guards finally push us back even further, the mom getting hysterical. Finally, the guy in front of me- right before *I* was going to say something- turns around and tells her to "Please shut up, How'd your kid get in there ahead of you?" Which does shut her up. At this time, another army dood walks in with a dog. They dissapear behind the gate, only to come out ten minutes later carrying a box. "Sony DVD Player". They leave with the box, and eventually open up security. 40 minutes, wasted, standing there feeling like I somehow got transported to Russia in it's high-day.

I've flown since, but only once or twice. Now, I drive. Give me open road, where if they want me, they'll have to catch me.. In retrospect, what I said was true - I was more scared for 'the way of life' than I was scared for my life or whatnot. I mean, like hell I'd want to bring a child into THIS mess..

My thoughts, noone elses. Flame if you want. 'Show I feel.
Me.

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> Perhaps I'm confused here. I thought right wingers and conservatives were for individual and state's rights and it was the bleeding heart liberals that wanted to hand the world over to the federal government on a silver platter? Ever heard of the libertarian party?

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Well, it is not a 1 dimensional line but a 2 dimensional grid. Personal liberties on one axis and economic beliefs on the other.

See http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

Conservatives like Bush believe in almost complete freedom for corporations, but not for individuals. A lot of liberals believe the complete opposite. Libertarians believe in freedom for both and the opposite axis believes in neither and leans towards Communism (which is not the same thing as Socialism).

As for states rights, I think is an issue that transcends the liberal/conservative labels, since states rights have been lost in both types of administrations, and both groups have been happy and unhappy about it.

At least we still have the 2nd amendment. (which most liberals outright oppose and infringe. (and this isn't based on conspiracy theories.))

not a 1 dimensional line but a 2 dimensional grid

states rights have been lost in both types of administrations, and both groups have been happy and unhappy about it

Exactly, and thats why I thought it unfair that you complained about all those things and then stuck the conservitives with the bill. Which ever side you may be on, that ain't right.

http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

Wow, that is wildly inaccurate. Puts me into the extreme left. I prefer this one where I score:

Economic Left/Right: -2.62
Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.03

(We have discussed this quiz before on the board.)

Even though I don't think it is right either, it isn't so wildly off base as the one you posted. I actualy would have ploted myself at about the inverse, that is, slightly right and south of center.

Scared? Yes, though I don’t think this is a “liberal/conservative” thing. I’d bet most people would think we’ve gotten away from the original vision of this country, though I’d also guess that most would disagree on HOW we’ve gotten away from it (by “how” I mean “in what ways”).

I will say, though, that there is nothing particularly magical about the U.S. Constitution. It is a great document for which men labored intensively and put their lives on the line, and this effort has brought great peace and prosperity to generations of people living in this country. It represents a single astounding achievement whereby men came together to form a government that understood basic human rights and did a fantastic job of addressing them. However, like any man made thing, as good as the writer’s intentions and ideas were it isn’t perfect. Don’t get me wrong, it is still a valuable piece of our government and contains the guiding principles that run this country, but we can’t deny that ideas and values have changed in the last 200 years and today we have different views on even what constitutes basic human rights.

The U.S. Constitution aside, there is a balance between freedom and security. As long as there are people who will take advantage of others we’ll never be truly free (in the sense of being able to do whatever we want without fear of persecution). The question is the number limitations with which we’re willing to live in order to gain security (IT people know this all to well). Well that’s one question anyway. There are many others, including what we determine to be “security” in the first place.

I think we live in a great country that affords us a great deal of freedom, but I also think it isn’t perfect. My freedom is limited in some areas that really frustrate me, but that is part of living in a society with others who have different beliefs and values. For now I feel that these areas are tolerable, even if it isn’t “right”, because I don’t think there’s anywhere else I could go and be any freer. There still exists in this country an avenue for change, and even in the corrupt system of politics we have, a voice gets through every once and awhile.

But it won’t last forever folks. Hopefully it won’t happen in my lifetime, but I do not believe this country is inherently “good” or “moral” and so will therefore exist eternally. It is a political system, and like all political systems it has flaws that if exploited enough will ultimately be its undoing. It makes me sad, but I think it’s true. Still, I try to count my blessings and fight for the things that I think are right.

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>> states rights have been lost in both types of administrations, and both groups have been happy and unhappy about it

>Exactly, and thats why I thought it unfair that you complained about all those things and then stuck the conservitives with the bill. Which ever side you may be on, that ain't right.

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States rights is a very miniscule part of my point; Personal civil rights is the crux of my post, and my characterization of Republican conservatives, especially the ones currently in office, being against most of them stands.