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#273012 - 29/12/2005 21:48 empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. Help?
estocks
new poster

Registered: 25/07/2003
Posts: 48
Loc: Reading UK
Hello

When the temperature drops to the dismal lows of 3 Celcius and below my EMPEG reports 'No hard disk found contact support'. Hello . There is a lot of clunking as the disk attempts to mount, on warming up the car the disk starts OK.
The SW is version 2.00 consumer with HiJack kernal. The HW is standard 20GB Mk. 2.
Any Owners know what to do or is there an unfixable problem?
Thanks.


Edited by estocks (29/12/2005 21:49)
_________________________
Empeg V2 60GB running v3 (alpha 11) and the autoupdated hijack from jemplode.

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#273013 - 29/12/2005 21:54 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: estocks]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4909
Loc: Orange County, NY USA
Quote:
Any Owners know what to do or is there an unfixable problem?
Thanks.

Bring your empeg inside with you when you leave the car.

Some hard drives will start in colder temperatures. What brand drive do you have? I find that Fujitsu drives are some of the more tempermental ones.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#273014 - 29/12/2005 22:30 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: robricc]
estocks
new poster

Registered: 25/07/2003
Posts: 48
Loc: Reading UK
I don't wish to be churlish, the player is in the car tonight and it's too cold to collect.
Aren't the EMPEGs specified to work from, say -10 to +55C, and the factory harddrives able to cope in a British winter?
_________________________
Empeg V2 60GB running v3 (alpha 11) and the autoupdated hijack from jemplode.

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#273015 - 29/12/2005 22:56 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: estocks]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5320
Loc: Cambridge UK
Quote:
I don't wish to be churlish, the player is in the car tonight and it's too cold to collect.

You have "South Cambridge" as your location, but I'm not sure whether you mean Cambridge UK or Cambridge MA My empeg is almost always left in my car overnight in Cambridge UK and I've never had a problem with start up.

Quote:
Aren't the EMPEGs specified to work from, say -10 to +55C

Operating temperature is 5C minimum. Standby (disk spun down) is -20C but that's pretty much irrelevant as the firmware stands.

Quote:
and the factory harddrives able to cope in a British winter?

They're able to cope with 5C as specified. Many of them will start up OK at lower temperatures but it varies from model to model (we shipped at least three brands) and unit to unit. Automotive temperature range drives didn't exist when we made that product - although they are available now. We considered various heating options but reached the point of diminishing returns.

It's also possible you have a dodgy IDE header which the cold weather is exacerbating.

Rob

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#273016 - 29/12/2005 23:50 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: estocks]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31226
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, um, I'm not sure how you're expecing a hard disk to function at 3c.

Doing what you're doing is going to severely shorten the life span of your disk drive. Better be ready to replace it, and I hope all your MP3s are backed up on your PC.

Click here for more information.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#273017 - 03/01/2006 06:18 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: rob]
Snowshoe
new poster

Registered: 04/04/2004
Posts: 16
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
[orange]We considered various heating options.....

Sounds like an opportunity for another project for someone. I actually had my hard drive complain of the temps awhile back, forget what the temps were but somewhere in the low 20's F region. I have a mix of drives, the original & a self-installed. The options for a solution for people in the more cold prone areas seem approachable of course. Taking the player out is the most ideal if you remember or get in the habit of it. I have left mine in the car much more often than not. I have temp extremes here of anything from 0F to indeces of 105F (sealed black vehicle) & have had little problems w/the drives balking. Is it worth any trouble, probably as I'm sure the drives are on borrowed time now, do I want to have replace them, NO! It's like Tony says the drives subjected to these extremes isn't good, start thinking of replacement before it's too late.
One solution might be a small bulb as a remedy as a small filament bulb can generate enough heat to keep a small area much warmer & the bulb wouldn't have to be that big. On the extreme side perhaps a small hydrogen plant:) The matter of a battery operated object having something running overnight can have it's own barriers though as everyone knows. It's not something that's insurmountable though. I have no idea what I'm leading to but certainly people on this board have the knowhow.
My biggest ? is Roger mentioned various heating options can they be divulged on this board as to the methods looked at?

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#273018 - 03/01/2006 10:48 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: rob]
furtive
old hand

Registered: 14/08/2001
Posts: 886
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
My empeg is almost always left in my car overnight in Cambridge UK


Noted. What car have you got again?


Edited by Roger (03/01/2006 12:10)

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#273019 - 04/01/2006 11:25 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: furtive]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5320
Loc: Cambridge UK
Quote:
Quote:
My empeg is almost always left in my car overnight in Cambridge UK


Noted. What car have you got again?

One with a very loud alarm parked behind locked gates in a sleepy little village!

Rob

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#273020 - 06/01/2006 15:52 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: Snowshoe]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
I've had luck running my empeg on all but the coldest days (<10 Degrees F) with stock Empeg LTD drives installed (YMMV standard disclaimer etc.etc.)

Having a remote car starter may be simpler than the system you describe - let the car warm for 5 minutes on a cold day (or cool on a hot day), by the time you get into it the empeg would be warm/cool enough to operate. It'd be nicer for you as well without all the dash/empeg hackery. Of course if you're into that kind of thing, have at, sounds like fun!

-Zeke
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WWFSMD?

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#273021 - 06/01/2006 19:42 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: Ezekiel]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
Quote:
...
Having a remote car starter may be simpler than the system you describe - let the car warm for 5 minutes on a cold day (or cool on a hot day), by the time you get into it the empeg would be warm/cool enough to operate. ...

Hmm, interesting.
But I'd have to modify my Empeg install. Currently the unit is powered on during a car start, then if I've left the player 'off' it will shut down again (sleep mode) after boot up. Otherwise it wakes to the state I've left it in.
I'd have to run power to the empeg from a switchable source- not the ignition controlled source.
... if I understand all of this correctly in the first place, that is...

Sure glad the SF Bay Area doesn't freeze much.
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10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)

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#273022 - 07/01/2006 00:42 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: Robotic]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3508
Loc: Guadalajara, MX
You could always pull the empeg slightly out of the sled when getting out at night.
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~ John

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#273023 - 12/01/2006 11:53 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. Help? [Re: estocks]
edsmiata
addict

Registered: 18/08/2002
Posts: 544
Loc: New Jersey
all this chatter about hot/cold weather forces me to make this post..

i live in NJ and garage my car overnight and unliss i am uploading some songs never take the empeg out of the car...reading all this makes me wonder exactly how much i have shortened the life span of my drives and how can i figure it out..

presently my 50gb are pretty much fully utilized and i would need to upgrade to a larger drive anyways...

having said all that is there anyway i can back up the music on my empeg directly onto another HDD without that HDD being installed in another device? I would like to do this so i dont run the risk of having my HDD blow out without having a back up..then when i need to swap out drives i already have all my tunes on a drive that can be immediately installed

(yes i do have all my tunes on my desktop...but i am just looking to take a short cut)

thanks,

Ed
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...One man gathers what another man spills

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#273024 - 12/01/2006 12:36 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. Help? [Re: edsmiata]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5588
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
is there anyway i can back up the music on my empeg directly onto another HDD without that HDD being installed in another device?


Well, the HDD will need to be installed in some kind of device

Seriously, though, you could put the new hard disk in the empeg, copy the tracks across, and then take the new disk out and stash it somewhere safe.

If you can get hold of a 3.5"-to-2.5" converter, and you've got a Linux box, or a copy of Cygwin, you can follow my rsync on empeg page to back up your empeg to a PC.

Just follow the instructions except that you use your PC as the destination instead of another empeg.
_________________________
-- roger

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#273025 - 12/01/2006 12:37 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: edsmiata]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Greetings!

Given that your garage the car, you should not have severe trouble or shorten the hard drive life that much.

But if you want to back up without a computer and are upgrading your drives anyway, the best recommendation I have is when you upgrade your empeg's drive(s), copy the files directly by using the empeg as the installation device similar to Step 7 of the drive upgrade FAQ and put your original drives in a safe place. I can send you more detail if you choose to do this.

Otherwise, I do not know of a direct disk connection method that will work well with the empeg. Perhaps a network attached disk, but you would still need something to do the connectivity...
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#273026 - 12/01/2006 13:19 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: pgrzelak]
edsmiata
addict

Registered: 18/08/2002
Posts: 544
Loc: New Jersey
what i will eventually do is upgrade to a larger drive...i would imagine that i would need about 20 more gb so do i go with one 80gb, and thus have a brand new drive, or keep the old ones in and risk a breakdown, which at that point what hs been store don them is now lost??


Ed
_________________________
...One man gathers what another man spills

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#273027 - 12/01/2006 14:01 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: edsmiata]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
If you are upgrading for capacity, I would go for the larger drive (there is not that much difference in price), use that and keep the old drives as a mirror of what you have on the player today.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#273028 - 12/01/2006 14:29 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: pgrzelak]
edsmiata
addict

Registered: 18/08/2002
Posts: 544
Loc: New Jersey
ya...thats what i wanted to hear...where is the best source for these things these days??
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...One man gathers what another man spills

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#273029 - 12/01/2006 18:54 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. Help? [Re: edsmiata]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5391
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
is there anyway i can back up the music on my empeg directly onto another HDD

I only

wish
and
wish
and
wish
and
wish
and
wish
and
wish
and
wish
and
wish
and
wish

that there were an easy way to do this.

Surely it isn't rocket science to write a Windows application that, upon clicking an icon on the desktop, would make an exact mirror copy of my empeg onto the PC hard drive of my choice! (Well, actually to me it would be rocket science. I once wrote a program in Basic that said "Hello World" right there on the monitor screen, and that is about the extent of my programming ability.)

Will nobody write a reasonable, idiot-proof backup program for the empeg? One that does not require a Linux box, or a bunch of other software to make it work?

Oh -- and it would be a good idea to make the program such that it could restore the backup to the empeg.

Sigh...

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#273030 - 12/01/2006 19:07 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. Help? [Re: tanstaafl.]
edsmiata
addict

Registered: 18/08/2002
Posts: 544
Loc: New Jersey
the silence is deafening...
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...One man gathers what another man spills

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#273031 - 13/01/2006 02:14 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: tanstaafl.]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31226
Loc: Seattle, WA
These days, with Hijack in place, it could probably be done with an FTP script called from a batch file. The basic components are already there.
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Tony Fabris

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#273032 - 13/01/2006 08:25 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: edsmiata]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2992
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
Because it's non-trivial, that's why.
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

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#273033 - 13/01/2006 12:15 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: tanstaafl.]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13964
Loc: Canada
The application is called FTP, and works on any O/S. Except that the Microsoft OS doesn't seem to have any normal way to do raw writes to a hard disk. But all of the other OSs do. Just FTP to your empeg, and GET /dev/hda, and give the name of the destination drive as the place to put it.

Done. One, trivial command. Except for the microsofties.

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#273034 - 13/01/2006 14:22 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: mlord]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5588
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Except that the Microsoft OS doesn't seem to have any normal way to do raw writes to a hard disk.


Define "normal". If you mean that it has no user-visible equivalent to /dev/hd* then I'll agree.

However, the Win32 API supports raw HD reads and writes perfectly well.

On the other hand, I fail to see how this is relevant. If you GET /dev/hda, you'll end up with a file called hda that is an image of the empeg's hard disk. You should be able to PUT /dev/hda later, no?
_________________________
-- roger

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#273035 - 13/01/2006 17:30 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: Roger]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31226
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
If you GET /dev/hda, you'll end up with a file called hda that is an image of the empeg's hard disk. You should be able to PUT /dev/hda later, no?

If this is true, then the steps in the FAQ for saving and restoring the dynamic data partition would be a lot easier, too, wouldn't they?

This is an interesting idea. If the FTP commands GET and PUT work for an entire disk partition, then we really DO have a simple and trivial way of backing up and restoring disk images on the car player.

And if they don't, maybe we could convince Mark to alter the FTP daemon in Hijack so that they do?
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Tony Fabris

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#273036 - 13/01/2006 17:31 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31226
Loc: Seattle, WA
Wait, isn't there a file-size limit in Windows? Can you make an 80-gig file?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#273037 - 13/01/2006 19:33 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: tfabris]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5588
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Wait, isn't there a file-size limit in Windows? Can you make an 80-gig file?


Depends on the FTP client. There's nothing stopping you in either the Win32 API or in NTFS.
_________________________
-- roger

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#273038 - 13/01/2006 20:07 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: tfabris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13964
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Wait, isn't there a file-size limit in Windows? Can you make an 80-gig file?


Oh, now there's a thought. I dunno if the Hijack FTP server works (or not) with files larger than 2GB/4GB. Never tested, never thought about before.

EDIT: Okay, I've looked through the source code, and it appears as if it *should* work fine for a raw drive .. gotta try it to make sure, but it oughta work.

Cheers


Edited by mlord (13/01/2006 20:15)

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#273039 - 13/01/2006 20:15 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: mlord]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Without thinking about it too hard, doing a backup that way doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. You're liable to get a lot of "blank" space taken up by unfilled filesystems, and it requires a restore to a drive of the exact same size (unless you don't care about your new 120GB drive still only having enough space to store 12GB worth of music). It makes more sense to back up filesystems as files and only read raw devices for non-filesystem slices.
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Bitt Faulk

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#273040 - 13/01/2006 20:16 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: wfaulk]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31226
Loc: Seattle, WA
Agreed. Well, it would be helpful in the case of the dynamic data partition anyway. Anyone wanna try it?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#273041 - 13/01/2006 21:00 Re: empeg in cold weather. it's ch-ch-chilly and it won't b-b-boot. He [Re: tfabris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13964
Loc: Canada
Works fine for the dynamic data partition.

Still transferring for the full disk image trial..

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