#256657 - 23/05/2005 11:50
OBD on your empeg
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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OK. I'm about to implement something along these lines. I'm planning on using an ELM323 ( http://www.elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM323DS.pdf ) which does all the OBD2 stuff on the car side (ISO in my case) and simply has text commands to interrogate (i.e. the empeg side). Basically it's just a PIC processor with special pre-programmed code inside. Does anyone else already have any hardware they were planning on using or would like to use? Almost a survey as much as anything. bjoern (from the other thread), what hardware and software are you using? My code might end up talking to the ELM323 but to talk to your hardware it could be completely a different protocol/commands. The main issue here is that the empeg will never talk OBD. Instead, it will talk to an interface that in turn talks OBD.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256658 - 25/05/2005 18:46
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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journeyman
Registered: 08/08/2001
Posts: 51
Loc: CA, USA
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I'm totally up for helping out however I can... I have access to one of these http://www.obddiagnostics.com/index.html ... It is supported by FreeDiag... I've only used the DOS program from his site.
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Ryan here... Empeg [08000462] 40 Gig with Subaru WRX sport wagon attached... (still! pending memory + LED upgrade, sheesh, I've been sitting on my ass for years)
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#256659 - 25/05/2005 20:56
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: rbenech]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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This is where we might have problems. That design is very similar in concept to the ELM323 but just that little bit different. I'll have to compare the commands etc to see what's different exactly. Unfortunately, I've already bought the ELM323 and designed the PCB for it. And FreeDiag doesn't support it  I may build one of those supported interfaces instead if enough people here have the same one. Perhaps I should have asked here first. Anyhoo, those who already have interfaces, speak now or forever hold thy peace.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256660 - 26/05/2005 06:06
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
Unfortunately, I've already bought the ELM323
Likewise.
Quote:
And FreeDiag doesn't support it
The support shouldn't be too hard to add.
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#256661 - 26/05/2005 06:31
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: julf]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, I've already bought the ELM323
Likewise.
Cool. That makes 2 ELM323 and one other but if I use port/use FreeDiag it should work with the other one anyway.
Quote:
Quote:
And FreeDiag doesn't support it
The support shouldn't be too hard to add.
True. At least I have the FreeDiag code to start with. I might start looking at it tonight.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256662 - 26/05/2005 07:14
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And FreeDiag doesn't support it
The support shouldn't be too hard to add.
True. At least I have the FreeDiag code to start with. I might start looking at it tonight.
Well, it looks like someone has started to implement ELM323 support. Looks like they've only really copied one of the other drivers though as much as anything. At least I've got something to start with though.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256663 - 26/05/2005 11:25
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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member
Registered: 03/04/2002
Posts: 169
Loc: Regensburg, Germany
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Quote:
Does anyone else already have any hardware they were planning on using or would like to use? Almost a survey as much as anything.
bjoern (from the other thread), what hardware and software are you using?
I don't really have much hardware, it seems (or it is tiny within the connector, I'd need to open it). I use just a cable for the laptop, no electronics, as far as I can tell:
http://obd-2.com/
Just plugs into the serial port. There may be some electronics in the connector that sits right on the OBDII plug, but there's not room for more than maybe one IC or three...
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32MB, serial: 10101626
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#256664 - 22/06/2005 20:17
Re: OBD on your empeg (UPDATE)
[Re: bjoern]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Well I finally received my little ELM323 interface board and built it up yesterday. However so far I can't get a single bit of info out of my car This could be because mine is a "Euro" M3 instead of the much more common US M3. I'm not giving up yet though. Perhaps I've got something slightly wrong. I will check my circuit again today/tonight
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256665 - 24/06/2005 16:19
Re: OBD on your empeg (UPDATE)
[Re: Shonky]
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member
Registered: 03/04/2002
Posts: 169
Loc: Regensburg, Germany
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Awesome! Keep at it <cheer> :-)
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32MB, serial: 10101626
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#256666 - 30/06/2005 21:43
Re: OBD on your empeg (UPDATE)
[Re: Shonky]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Wow! Interesting project! Wish I could help, but I'm not the bits and bytes sort of guy. One of the guys I work with designed and built a custom OBD2 interface/display for his Harley V-Rod. He wrote his own assembly code, though. More info at this forum: http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17092Also the manual is available (1MB): http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28782I thought you guys might like to see another OBD user interface. Good luck on the work- I'm 'lurking' as you progress, always interested. My car has OBD1 (95 Honda), but I'm not sure if OBD1&2 functionality is your goal. (I should probably read through all the previous OBD posts...)
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10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#256667 - 30/06/2005 22:41
Re: OBD on your empeg (UPDATE)
[Re: Robotic]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Looks pretty cool. Don't think it would help much though. Could you send me the manual by email please? I don't really feel like joining up to yet another forum. My email is in my profile hereUnfortunately, I'm not having much success with my car. I'm sure all my hardware is fine I just think my BMW doesn't talk the talk the interfaces I have built expect. I have built 3 completely different interfaces and I haven't got a single byte out of the diagnostic port. I have absolutely zero concrete information as to what exactly it's supposed to talk, so I'm building interfaces and simply trying them to see if they work
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256668 - 30/06/2005 22:45
Re: OBD on your empeg (UPDATE)
[Re: Shonky]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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OH- whups- sorry, didn't figure on the forum being locked. My bad.
Yah, I'll send you the manual.
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10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#256669 - 01/07/2005 00:05
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Will the interface you're putting together analyze all the OBD-II protocols? I believe there are 4 major ones including the new CAN spec that newer cars (including mine) are using. If what you've got will support my car, I will have great interest in helping out with (or flat out writing myself) a userland application to do interesting things with displaying and even saving the data.
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#256670 - 02/07/2005 00:54
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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No, I wasn't planning on supporting everything since every single car is different. And even when they do use a standard they often have "variations". Gotta love standards when they are modified - kind of defeats the purpose really.
As far as I can tell there's KWP, ISO, CAN and VPW. And maybe other proprietary ones given that the M3 doesn't seem to talk ISO which it should.
If I can get freediag working on the BMW, then if freediag supports CAN or whatever else you want, you should be right.
As I've mentioned though, I'm not getting much in the way of results so far. I thought this would be easy too.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256671 - 03/07/2005 10:59
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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addict
Registered: 16/08/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: NRW, Germany
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Hi Shonky,
I would have expected the M3 to be using a high speed (500 kbit/s) CAN bus with the ODBII info probably being transmitted using the KWP2000 (German) protocol. There should also be a second low or medium speet CAN bus in the car for non-critical systems running at 125 kbit/s. Well that would be my guess, assuming that the German manufacturers all use similar standards these days.
Even if you can't interpret the information, you should at least be able to see traffic on the bus using your diagnosis tool.
Hmmm, how old is your M3?
Cheers
Derek
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(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [sold]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 20GB blue)
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#256672 - 03/07/2005 11:08
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Derek]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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It definitely has some CANbus in it. However I believe that is only for the ECU to talk to the SMG gearbox (if fitted, mine's a normal manual). For diagnosing all the other stuff (HVAC, airbags, body computer etc) they all only connect to the standard K/L line bus.
It's a 98 E36 M3. Being a Euro-spec it's quite a different car to the US spec one. In particular the engine and ECU are totally different. Same body, but underneath, the engine, gearbox, brakes etc are all different.
All the carsoft stuff only uses the slow speed K and L line interface from what I can see.
I wasn't aware that KWP2000 was German. Most things I've read point to (older) European cars having ISO9141 if anything. All the new stuff is becoming CANbus though as you're aware.
And of course standards don't mean a lot anyway.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256673 - 03/07/2005 11:44
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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addict
Registered: 16/08/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: NRW, Germany
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Quote:
It definitely has some CANbus in it. However I believe that is only for the ECU to talk to the SMG gearbox (if fitted, mine's a normal manual).
I would also expect the brake module (ABS/ESP/TCS) to be on the CAN, and at least the instrument cluster. One of the modules will most likely also act as a gateway between the high speed and low speed CAN busses. Often it is the instrument cluster as it displays information from both busses to the driver.
Quote:
For diagnosing all the other stuff (HVAC, airbags, body computer etc) they all only connect to the standard K/L line bus.
It is not unusual for modules to have a K-line and a CAN interface. The K-line interface can be used for programming the module, and sometimes for diagnosis. The CAN interface is usually used for in-vehicle communication and can also be used for diagnosis. You can usually rescue a module that has been "flashed to death" over CAN by flashing it via K-line.
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It's a 98 E36 M3. Being a Euro-spec it's quite a different car to the US spec one. In particular the engine and ECU are totally different. Same body, but underneath, the engine, gearbox, brakes etc are all different.
Thank goodness! Sometimes US spec stuff will have smaller brakes and quite a few other differences that aren't at all desireable. Speaking of which, you car may well be using EOBD for the public diagnosis, and not ODBII!
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I wasn't aware that KWP2000 was German.
I don't think it necessarily is, but there is a German version of it. Well that is how I understand that designation.
Quote:
Most things I've read point to (older) European cars having ISO9141 if anything. All the new stuff is becoming CANbus though as you're aware.
As far as I'm aware ISO9141 si the communications protocol (like KWP2000 (ISO14230) whereas CAN is the physical layer. Both protocols can also be used with other physical layers.
The current (European) stuff is pretty much all CAN bus, with LIN for some low speed stuff like door modules (window winders and the likes). Some of the new suff is getting Flexray which is a lot faster than CAN.
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And of course standards don't mean a lot anyway.
lol, well a lot of the time. Some of the standards are acutally useful though, in that they are sometimes actually used! Scary but true 
Does that help any? My esperience is mostly with vehicles from 1999 on built by another manufacturer here in Germany, so it doesn't necessarily apply to your '98 BMW.
Cheers
Derek
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(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [sold]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 20GB blue)
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#256674 - 04/07/2005 09:01
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Derek]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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No traction or stability control, just ABS. No CAN connections on the ABS control unit according to my wiring diagram. Nothing on the instrument cluster either. There are connections between the DME and the instrument cluster but they aren't marked as CAN and are separate connections to the CAN wiring on the DME. Yes a Euro spec M3 is a completely different beast. 321hp vs 240hp for a start I know what you mean about standards. In my line of work (electrical engineer) though I often see manufacturers decide to only use bits of a standard or change it to suit them. You could be right about EOBD instead of ISO. I haven't got much info on EOBD. I just wish I could find something concrete as to what I should be talking on the diagnostic lines. I appreciate your input, thanks, but I think I'm a bit more confused now  . It would be nice if I could actually get the standards. However, as with all standards they are expensive, and I simply don't know which one to purchase anyway.
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256675 - 05/07/2005 05:54
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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I've had some partial success however it's not good news for empeg OBD. I have built a commercial BMW only interface and using some really really really crappy PC software that I ... ummm ... found somewhere I can talk to the car.
I can get the live data and read the fault codes for a few things but there's not as much info as I'd like it would seem.
It also means that I'd have to work out the protocol (again) to talk to the interface I built.
So unless you have a BMW what I have now is useless to anyone else
I'd still like to get some kind of more generic interface going so I guess I'll snoop what's happening on the bus and see if I can figure out the "standard"
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#256676 - 06/07/2005 01:58
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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member
Registered: 03/04/2002
Posts: 169
Loc: Regensburg, Germany
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Hey, but at least you're progressing, that's fine! And even if you were to remain the only one, it's an awesome proof od concept right there, I find!
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32MB, serial: 10101626
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#256677 - 02/12/2005 04:07
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Anything exciting happening here? My Sebring apparently still has the ISO interface, not that I have timem for this, but I'm curious.
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#256678 - 02/12/2005 15:08
Re: OBD on your empeg
[Re: Shonky]
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old hand
Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
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Dakota Digital makes a control box for interfacing non OBD cars with digital gauges. http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm?ptype=article&article_id=9I'd like to interface this with my Empeg instead of their digital gauges. Any advice for how I could decode what their control box outputs?
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