#243885 - 12/12/2004 17:11
Novice question about Tivo?
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addict
Registered: 04/09/2004
Posts: 524
Loc: Oklahoma
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In the US, is it required to purchase the 12.XX usd a month service to use a Tivo Box? I don't care about schedules and tv guides...Would just like to be able to recorde a few shows now and then....
Just wondering, as I thought I saw a thread somewhere, but could not figure out the question...
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#243886 - 12/12/2004 17:59
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Ladmo]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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EIther that or purchase the lifetime subscription, yes. The original units would continue to work, but they changed that policy quite some time ago.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#243887 - 13/12/2004 01:56
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Ladmo]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I believe the "basic" plan is less than $12 and offers 3 days of programming info.
You can always buy an older model on eBay as well. That should be able to be used as a plain old digital VCR. I thought the newer ones would also still function that way as long as you made it past the initial setup (which requires a service call).
There's always the option of using a PC and capture card too. But that would cost more than a TiVo with lifetime sub, regardless of what computer you chose to use.
Bruno
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#243888 - 13/12/2004 02:36
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Ladmo]
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addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 598
Loc: Florida
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Only the old Series 1 SA (standalone) TiVo's that shipped with software version 1.3 or older will work without TiVo service. From what I remember you will get nag screens every time you press the TiVo button, and it didn't let you set recordings for more than 30 minutes. If you search www.dealdatebase.com/forum/ you might find some hacks to trick the older TiVo's into thinking you have service. I think that the service really is worth every penny I've paid ($1047.25). My first TiVo I have almost had for 4 years the second is also most 3 years and the thrid is just over two years. The first one is a lifetime subscription and the others are monthly. If I was buying a TiVo today I would find the best price on any size Philips SA series 1 TiVo that has the lifetime subscription since you can upgrade the space yourself.
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#243889 - 13/12/2004 12:36
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Attack]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Unfortunately, with monthly service fees, TiVo is guaranteed to have no more than marginal success. People don't like having to pay contract fees on a perpetual basis for something they've "bought." Note that putting fuel in a car is a completely different mentality and so is a service contract like a phone line.
So how can TiVo change their model? I really don't know. Even selling lifetime subscriptions for $200 to everyone (or rather rolling in to the base price of the hardware) likely won't cut it. You see, Tribune Media Services (TMS), the program listing providers, don't supply data for free. I have a pretty good idea of how much TiVo pays every month for this and therefore know why their current model is in place. What really boggles my mind is how a company like Snapstream can sell their BeyondTV3 application for so cheap and still provide free listings - they're also with Tribune and I know approximately how much they should be paying as well.
TiVo really has to move into large contracts with CableCo's - that's the only mass-market avenue they've yet to tap. Knowing the Cabe sheep mentality however, this would be an extremely hard sell.
Back on topic: If picking up a SERIES 1, make sure to get a CACHECARD if you want to use the programming guide or if you plan to keep more than a handful of shows recorded on it.
Bruno
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#243890 - 13/12/2004 14:23
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: hybrid8]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
People don't like having to pay contract fees on a perpetual basis for something they've "bought." Note that putting fuel in a car is a completely different mentality and so is a service contract like a phone line.
Why is this? TiVo operates on the cell phone model. They undercharge on the hardware and make up for it with sub fees. No one complains that they've "bought" their cell phone and, thus, service should be free. I've never understood why it's such a hard sell for TiVo.
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#243891 - 13/12/2004 14:25
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Ladmo]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
In the US, is it required to purchase the 12.XX usd a month service to use a Tivo Box? I don't care about schedules and tv guides...Would just like to be able to recorde a few shows now and then....
Just wondering, as I thought I saw a thread somewhere, but could not figure out the question...
There are a few TiVo devices that include "basic" service for free. I think these are limited to the TiVo's that are integrated with DVD players/recorders.
There are lots of refurb SD-H400 units available on ebay for around $200. This is an 80 hour TiVo with progressive DVD player and includes basic service for free.
Edited by Dylan (13/12/2004 14:37)
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#243892 - 13/12/2004 14:38
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Why is this? TiVo operates on the cell phone model.
Not really. After 1-2 years of service, your commitment to the cell carrier has been satiated and the phone is yours.
I think lifetime service is the best option and just come to grips that the Tivo box costs ~$400 (Unit + Lifetime Service).
I bought my SAT-T60 about 4 years ago. If it was a stand-alone and I opted for monthly service instead of lifetime, I would have given Tivo over $600 in fees at this point. While the service is good, that is an insane amout of money to be paid to a company that pushes ads onto my equipment (cell phones don't do that), and sells my viewing habbits right down to every rewind and pause I make.
Don't get me wrong, Tivo is good. The service simply isn't worth a recurring charge of $12.95 per month IMO.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#243893 - 13/12/2004 14:46
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: robricc]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Why is this? TiVo operates on the cell phone model.
Not really. After 1-2 years of service, your commitment to the cell carrier has been satiated and the phone is yours.
Yours to do what with? Most cell phones sold in the US are locked to a carrier so it's a paper weight unless you keep buying service or hack it. The same applies to TiVo.
Quote:
While the service is good, that is an insane amout of money to be paid to a company that pushes ads onto my equipment (cell phones don't do that), and sells my viewing habbits right down to every rewind and pause I make.
I think it's worth it but that's obviously a matter of opinion. But I'm sure that your cell phone carrier is making money off of marketing your information.
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#243894 - 13/12/2004 15:36
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: hybrid8]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
Unfortunately, with monthly service fees, TiVo is guaranteed to have no more than marginal success. People don't like having to pay contract fees on a perpetual basis for something they've "bought." Note that putting fuel in a car is a completely different mentality and so is a service contract like a phone line.
I agree that it sucks to have to pay a monthly subscription. But people still buy televisions that are near useless without a cable or satellite subscription, 'phones that are useless without a service contract, and the sheep are flockin to XM and Sirius. So I'm not sure that I agree with your conclusion.
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So how can TiVo change their model? I really don't know. Even selling lifetime subscriptions for $200 to everyone (or rather rolling in to the base price of the hardware) likely won't cut it. You see, Tribune Media Services (TMS), the program listing providers, don't supply data for free. I have a pretty good idea of how much TiVo pays every month for this and therefore know why their current model is in place. What really boggles my mind is how a company like Snapstream can sell their BeyondTV3 application for so cheap and still provide free listings - they're also with Tribune and I know approximately how much they should be paying as well.
A better model might be to amortise the hardware cost into a monthly subscription too. This worked to get everyone buying cellphones. Who would have spent $500 on a phone otherwise? A few perhaps, but the vast majority wouldn't. Of course that model would require an annual (or more likely) bi-annual contract to prevent people abusing that.
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TiVo really has to move into large contracts with CableCo's - that's the only mass-market avenue they've yet to tap. Knowing the Cabe sheep mentality however, this would be an extremely hard sell.
Yeah, that's an incredibly hard sell. The problem is two-fold. Firstly, CableCo provides a large chunk of a network's subscribers, and hence advertising revenue. The networks aren't going to be too happy for CableCo to provide the means for commerical skipping and will resist that using every trick in the book - both financial and legal. The second is that CableCo don't want to pay a relatively small company like TiVo when they have the resources to do it themselves. You've already noted that they have a competitive advantage over TiVo because they don't have to pay for guide data.
The result of these two factors is CableCo taking their time rolling out their own DVRs. For example, Comcast DVR has been promised for over 2 years and is only just (finally) being offered in my area. Everything I've read about it online suggests that it's finally starting to be useful.
_________________________
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#243895 - 13/12/2004 15:38
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Yours to do what with? Most cell phones sold in the US are locked to a carrier so it's a paper weight unless you keep buying service or hack it. The same applies to TiVo.
Ask the carrier for an unlock code. They will provide it to you.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#243896 - 13/12/2004 15:44
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
But people still buy televisions that are near useless without a cable or satellite subscription
You know, somebody please tell me what happened to us, as consumers. When did it become OK for us to pay a subscription fee to watch television with commercials in it?
I remember it was around the time HBO came out. HBO was like the the "killer app" for cable television. Everyone wanted it. Then cable companies started rebroadcasting your local stations to you on the cable, and everyone thought that it was OK to pay a subscription since they were getting HBO, too.
But now people pay subscriptions just for the basic package. Full of commercials that are supposed to be paying for the shows we're watching.
This paying-twice thing really sucks.
And for those of us with DirecTV subscriptions, there's that other thing, the five-dollar fee to have your local stations rebroadcast to you. So you're paying three times: Once by having commercials, once for your basic DirecTV subscription, and once for the local-station fee.
That's really awful. How did it come to this?
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#243897 - 13/12/2004 15:58
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: robricc]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Yours to do what with? Most cell phones sold in the US are locked to a carrier so it's a paper weight unless you keep buying service or hack it. The same applies to TiVo.
Ask the carrier for an unlock code. They will provide it to you.
Not AT&T, Verizon or Sprint.
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#243898 - 13/12/2004 16:16
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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TiVo doesn't provide content nor wire service like a cable company or phone company. Consumers see that they're already paying (high prices) for their TV content. They don't want to pay someone else a monthly fee to duplicate guide listings only to allow them to schedule recordings. That's where the big difference is. I suppose some people may read this as speculation. but you only have to look as far as TiVo's subsciber numbers to see the facts. Miniscule.
Cable Co's don't and will not make their own boxes. They also go with smaller companies, but price is usually the bottom line. As long as a certain fitness of function is present. Motorola and Scientific Atlanta have this market sewn up right now.
TiVo needs to integrate their "fees" with those of an existing subscription plan. An additional $2-5 on a cable bill will likely be acceptable. Again, for accounting purposes, this must go through the cable co or people will likely not accept it. Similar to how DTV operates its TiVo boxes.
I don't want to speculate on commercial skipping features because that's a very tangled web. Broadcast TV (free) with commercial versus CableTV (pay) with commercials and all those types of comparisons. AFAIK, there isn't a DVR out there that prevents you from at least fast-forwarding past commercials.
TiVo's new ad-overlay feature though seemingly unobtrusive is a big slap in the face to all subscribers. Perhaps the slippery slope however will lead to free TiVo service. A TiVo box is easily worth $400. Try putting together any crappy PC to do the same. You'll be over $400 in the hole and have $10000 worth in headaches only to be stuck with something that's a pale shadow of a TiVo (regardless of what platform and free or commercial software you use). The $99 or FREE TiVo hardware was a big mistake in my opinion.
Bruno
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#243899 - 13/12/2004 16:28
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Not AT&T, Verizon or Sprint.
Maybe you're talking about TDMA AT&T in which case almost no major provider in the US is able to use the phone anyway. Verizon and Sprint are CDMA, but Verizon's network requires (for the most part) a tri-band phone. Sprint only uses one frequency band, so a Sprint phone on Verizon is useless.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#243900 - 13/12/2004 16:29
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
And for those of us with DirecTV subscriptions, there's that other thing, the five-dollar fee to have your local stations rebroadcast to you.
Then don't pay it. But, you say, it's a convenience to not have to change TV inputs and get (generally) a cleaner signal.
So what part is it that should be free? The part where you're getting an ostensibly better product or the part where they're expending their resources?
Some variation on that response applies to your other points, too.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#243901 - 13/12/2004 16:46
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Then don't pay it.
Fortunately, I don't need to, since my new HD-DirecTivo will record the over-the-air digital stations now.
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So what part is it that should be free?
Tough question to answer in the current day, with the revenue streams established the way they are right now.
Ideally, what should have happened, is in the early days of cable television, people would have refused to pay cable TV subscriptions just to get channels with commercials. Then the revenue stream would have settled out into a model where cable TV subscriptions paid for the shows (I know, not workable unless catv bills were huge or the shows sucked), either that or advertisers subsidized the cable companies, letting them distribute for free (probably more workable).
I remember that another "Killer App" for cable TV in the early days was MTV. I remember in high school asking a friend with cable/MTV if it had commercials. He said something like "Yes, but not many, and they're cool commercials, too." I think it's that kind of thing that gets the foot in the door, you get used to paying a subscription to watch a few high-quality commercials, and before you know it you're paying to be shown more ads than show.
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#243902 - 13/12/2004 17:30
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The point is that the cable company does nothing other than provide you programming. They are not responsible for the content, they are only a gateway. Do you complain to your ISP when Yahoo shows you ads?
The reason that people got cable initially were twofold. One, to get the channels that were not available over the airwaves. I'm not sure that VHF and UHF have enough bandwidth to support that many channels to begin with (probably so, since cable started out as just an antenna replacement), but those channels certainly couldn't have paid to have transmitters in every market. On the other hand, those channels were available over the airwaves, as long as you purchased an old-school satellite dish. (IIRC, you had one of these until recently.) The second reason was to get local channels without having to have a big-ass antenna on your roof, and probably get a better signal even if you did. I know that when I was little, before we had cable, even though we were in the city, TV reception could be spotty.
So the cable companies were not providing that content, only your access to it. Of course, I think that cable companies began failing miserably at that goal, and that's why I refuse to pay them money anymore.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#243903 - 13/12/2004 18:36
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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This is a little off topic, but personally, I'd be happy if the cable company offered a plan where I could choose my channel line-up for around $.50 per channel. That's about what I am paying now for barebones cable, except I watch about 1/8 of the channels.
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#243904 - 13/12/2004 18:44
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, A La Carte programming fees are something you just can't get with DirecTV or Dishnet. You can do that with C-band dishes, but the prices aren't quite as low as you want.
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#243905 - 13/12/2004 19:54
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I've thought about that, too, but then I realize that there are several channels that have one show that I really love watching. I think USA is a pretty throw-away network, but I must get every episode of Monk that airs. Then there's Mythbusters, The Screen Savers/XPlay, Justice League (don't watch much CN anymore), and even Joan of Arcadia (a whole major network and there's only one show of any consequence, IMO).
My viewing habits basically fall into the above shows, Comedy Central, and Fox on Sundays.
Tony, those prices are interesting. I think they're a little off in most instances, though. DiscoveryHD alone is $50? Aside from that and the movie prices, that could be interesting. I'd still run into the above problem, though.
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Matt
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#243906 - 13/12/2004 20:07
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
DiscoveryHD alone is $50?
Discovery HD Theatre, notice. Proper spelling always commands a premium price 
Peter
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#243907 - 13/12/2004 20:45
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Dignan]
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Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Considering the channels that you mentioned (even if it were just for a single show), add another 10-13 channels and you would still be paying $10 - $20 a month from a reasonable a la carte solution.
I could easily live with about 20 choice channels. Even if I had to pay $1 per channel (which is twice what I am forced to pay now), I'd still save money.
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#243908 - 13/12/2004 20:49
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, an a la carte system with different channels possibly commanding different prices with a cost floor would seem to make sense. I imagine that having that many different combinations would have been a nightmare to deal with before computers because prevalent. Now I can't imagine that it would be a big deal at all.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#243909 - 13/12/2004 22:13
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Yeah, an a la carte system with different channels possibly commanding different prices with a cost floor would seem to make sense. I imagine that having that many different combinations would have been a nightmare to deal with before computers because prevalent. Now I can't imagine that it would be a big deal at all.
Dish Network used to offer this back when they were small, but did stop due to the call overhead. Instead of someone calling to order and asking for "Dish 500" or whatever, they would ask questions about each and every channel, and the person would have to lead them through it. In the end, they just couldn't justify the cost of keeping people on the phones for that long.
I'd be happy if they brought it back, but only allowed it as an internet subscription, or one done through the receiver now. Receivers these days allow interactive use to pay bills and order PPV, so it shouldn't be too hard to extend it. Also, set time limits you must subscribe to a channel, to prevent picking and choosing so quickly, you only get the channels at the times you need to record shows.
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#243910 - 14/12/2004 10:08
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
Ideally, what should have happened, is in the early days of cable television, people would have refused to pay cable TV subscriptions just to get channels with commercials.
Well, we do pay for most newspapers and magazines full of ads, don't we? (Granted, it is easier to 'skip' a newspaper ad than TV commercial in the middle of a movie.)
_________________________
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Q#5196
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#243911 - 14/12/2004 15:44
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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I'm sure they could offer a la carte programming but why would they? The tiered system forces you to pay more.
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#243912 - 14/12/2004 15:51
Re: Novice question about Tivo?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31567
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Well, we do pay for most newspapers and magazines full of ads, don't we?
Interesting you should bring that up as an analogy. The truth is that I personally don't buy newspapers and magazines, partly because I don't feel like paying for ads. There are a few magazines I receive for free because they are trade rags and I've convinced the publishers that I'm part of the trade and therefore the perfect demographic toward which to target the ads. So, technically, in my case, the ads are paying for the magazines.
But I see your point that the general public does in fact pay for products that contain ads, and whether it's a magazine or a cable/satellite subscription, it's pretty much the same thing. Doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's right. 
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