#176375 - 22/08/2003 08:35
Speccing out a new PC
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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As some of you may know, I'm moving in with my girlfriend in a few weeks time.
Unfortunately, her flat (in London) is significantly smaller than my (rented) house (in Cambridge), so I'm going to have to downsize my computer collection.
I'm thinking of replacing my main Windows PC with something like a Shuttle XPC box. It's going to be my main hacking/gaming box, so it's got to be fairly nippy, but because it's going to be in Jen's flat, it's going to have to be fairly quiet as well.
It's been a while since I last looked at getting a new PC. Other than my laptop, my last PC purchase was a 900MHz Athlon.
So. My questions: AMD or Intel? The Intel CPUs seem to be more pricey, but if they run cooler, that might be fine. I'm not looking to overclock in any way, and the Shuttle case limits my after-market cooling abilities. 400FSB or 800FSB? How do the PCxxxx numbers on RAM map to the DDRxxx numbers? How do they relate to FSB. If I get an Athlon 3200+ apparently, I need to use PC3200 RAM. Where can I find some big sticks of PC3200 RAM? I'd like to fully populate this box with 2Gb. Crucial only seem to have it in 512Mb sticks.
What graphics card should I be looking at? I'm planning on playing a load of Half-Life 2 when it comes out, so something that can do that would be good.
I'm also planning on putting a 250Gb Maxtor disk in it (which is currently sitting unused on the shelf here), so something that supports LBA48 and ATA133 is a must.
_________________________
-- roger
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#176376 - 22/08/2003 08:47
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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journeyman
Registered: 29/07/2003
Posts: 66
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
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As for video card, Outpost has a great deal right now on a Geforce FX 5900 (not the Ultra) by BFG... comes with a lifetime warranty and 24/7 technical support. I ordered mine at 5:30PM and got it at 9:30 the next morning! (overnight shipping $9.75!). But... haven't had a chance to try it out yet as my mainboard blew up. I'm using a backup PC (win95 Pentium 110mhz  )
As for RAM, I always ordered Crucial until I found there are problems with Crucial registered memory and AMD Tyan boards (My dead board is a Tyan dual athlon). I hear Corsair is a good brand. Check pricewatch.com...
Also, I believe AMD and Intel are pretty close as for the amount of heat they put out. Intel has a larger physical die size, so it's easier to cool, however.
_________________________
Hello, my name is Bingo. I like to climb on things. Can I have a banana? eek eek.
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#176377 - 22/08/2003 08:50
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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How do the PCxxxx numbers on RAM map to the DDRxxx numbers? DDRxxx is in MHz, PCxxxx is in Mbytes/s. Modern chipsets transfer 8 octets per bus transaction (some have two buses), so DDR400 = PC3200 and so proportionally. (Older, two or three digit, PCxx/PCxxx numbers such as PC66 or PC100 were MHz, confusingly enough.)
How do they relate to FSB. The FSB is also measured in MHz and 8 octets wide. If you have an 800FSB and one bank of DDR400 memory, then your memory performance will be no better than with a cheaper 400 or 533FSB. If you have 800FSB and two banks of DDR400 memory, then you can saturate FSB and your memory still keeps up. Bear in mind though that, in a gaming machine, some of your FSB (up to 2100Mbytes/s for AGP8x) is spent talking to the AGP and not the RAM, so it's not necessarily a problem if your RAM is a bit slower. Modern chipsets, unlike old Triton-era stuff, usually don't require the FSB and memory speeds to be synchronised in any way (though I imagine you get better performance if they are). Check your motherboard manual.
If I get an Athlon 3200+ apparently, I need to use PC3200 RAM. Where can I find some big sticks of PC3200 RAM? I'd like to fully populate this box with 2Gb. Crucial only seem to have it in 512Mb sticks. If Crucial don't make them, that's IMO a big hint that they can't be made reliably. Big sticks, even in slower speeds, tend to only be available in registered DRAM (i.e. with another set of latches to reduce bus loading), which needs specific chipset support and is not pin-compatible with normal DIMMs.
Peter
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#176378 - 22/08/2003 09:20
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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What graphics card should I be looking at? I'm planning on playing a load of Half-Life 2 when it comes out, so something that can do that would be good. The demos of Half-Life 2 that you've seen on the net were running on the latest ATI card if I recall correctly. The Nvidia card was the one being used to demo Doom 3.
I was hoping that the "which card is best for HL2 and D3" question would be settled by now, but it's not. So when I took the plunge, it was with the Nvidia card. My friend Tod's planning on going with the ATI card. I still don't know which of the two will play HL2 and D3 best, I guess we'll find out. Just make sure that if you get the Nvidia card, it's the one with 256 megs of video ram. It's not cheap (about $500.00 US), but that'll really help with the new games. I don't know if there's a 256 meg version of the ATI card or not.
AMD or Intel? Intel.
400FSB or 800FSB? I dunno if the shuttles will do 800, but obviously faster is better.
I considered getting a shuttle, but I don't see how I can cram a hot video card, a hot CPU (I just *had* to go with 3.2  ), and a hot hard drive in there and not have it turn into a doorstop after a month of use. Will the shuttles even take a 3.2?
How do the PCxxxx numbers on RAM map to the DDRxxx numbers? Dunno exactly, but I think that 3200 means that the ram runs at 400mhz (which is different than the CPU FSB speed). My motherboard will do 3200 which I think is 400mhz. My Corsair RAM chips will do 466mhz but the mobo won't.
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#176379 - 22/08/2003 09:27
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Well, I personally would go for an AMD processor, since you tend to get more speed for the money. Their only drawback is that if the heatsink comes off you're stuffed, since the things die immediately.
I'd get a Shuttle SN45, which is the one with the 400MHz FSB, and put an XP3200 in it, along with two 512MB PC3200 DIMMS. The SN45 is based on the Nvidia Nforce2 Ultra 400 chipset, which bank-interleaves the ram for higher throughput. Put an ATI Radeon 9800 in it, along with your 250GB drive and a DVD/CDRW drive, and you've got a small, portable box that will make a damn fast games machine as well as do pretty much anything else you'd require. My games box is basically this setup, only slightly lower spec as it's older.
You can't put any of the high-end Nvidia card in a shuttle box, as they have the HUGE fan on the wrong side. The shuttles have the AGP slot on the side nearest the case lid, so the fan overhangs the case.
You can get the shuttle carry bag as well, to make the thing completely portable. In fact, I have the one here I was going to let you have, which I forgot to bring up with me. I'll bring it next time
The best place to get the shuttle from is probably here . They have pretty good prices on most other things as well.
pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#176380 - 22/08/2003 09:27
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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heh, idno. i went with the amd xp 2700. im not extremely rich but i dint want anything horribly slow.
and i got the ati 9700. good bang for the buck. but if youve got the money, go all out.
personally, im an amd fan myself.
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#176381 - 22/08/2003 09:34
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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im an amd fan myself. I was a big AMD fan in the K5, K6 and early K7 days. I switched to Intel once AMD started requiring a jet engine to cool the CPU. My boxed 2.4GHz P4 with Intel OEM fan runs very quiet in a mid-ATX case. I used to have an XPC, but I eventually needed more drive bays.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#176382 - 22/08/2003 09:39
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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If you have an 800FSB and one bank of DDR400 memory, then your memory performance will be no better than with a cheaper 400 or 533FSB. If you have 800FSB and two banks of DDR400 memory, then you can saturate FSB and your memory still keeps up. Interesting. Can you clarify this more? Do you mean "bank" or do you mean "chip"?
I've got two 512-meg chips on a "3200" board with the CPU running at 800mhz FSB.
There are four slots for RAM chips on the board, arranged in two pairs, like this:
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Is each slot a bank, or is each pair a bank? In other words, Right now, the chips are installed thus:
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If each pair was a bank instead of each slot being a bank, would I get better performance if I plugged them in thus?:
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#176383 - 22/08/2003 09:39
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: robricc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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on that note, i believe amds are designed to run at higher temperatures, are they not?
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#176384 - 22/08/2003 09:49
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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I'm also planning on putting a 250Gb Maxtor disk in it (which is currently sitting unused on the shelf here), so something that supports LBA48 and ATA133 is a must. The Shuttle SB61G2 supports 800FSB P4, dual-bank DDR400, and AGP8x. It only does ATA100, though (and SATA).
Peter
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#176385 - 22/08/2003 09:59
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Interesting. Can you clarify this more? Do you mean "bank" or do you mean "chip"? I don't mean "chip" (I don't even mean "module"). Some people use the word "channel" instead of "bank". Yet others call this an "interleaved" memory subsystem.
These chipsets basically have two independent memory interfaces on, so they can get 3200Mbytes/sec (for DDR400) out of each of them. The chipset accesses them alternately, so the CPU effectively sees a single 6400Mbytes/sec memory subsystem.
Is each slot a bank, or is each pair a bank? That depends on your motherboard; it should say in the manual whether or not you have a dual-bank memory controller, and, if so, which DIMM slots belong to which bank. If you have four slots, it's not at all likely that each one is in its own bank -- only the biggest-ass chipsets have four memory banks.
If each pair was a bank instead of each slot being a bank, would I get better performance if I plugged them in thus?:
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----------------
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---------------- Yes, if that's indeed the layout. Some chipsets (e.g. Serverworks 3LE) won't boot the machine unless the two banks are matched (much like the old days of SIMMs being installed in pairs or fours); other, more consumer-targeted ones, will boot with mismatched banks but operate them as a single bank.
Peter
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#176386 - 22/08/2003 10:16
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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If each pair was a bank instead of each slot being a bank, would I get better performance if I plugged them in thus?:
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----------------
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---------------- Asus's US website seems to only have the international version of the Quick-Start Guide for the P4C-800 downloadable, but it turns out that yes, for une configuration à double-canal you need to install une paire de DIMM identiques in the blue slots, and/or une autre paire in the black slots.
Peter
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#176387 - 22/08/2003 10:21
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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I've got a Shuttle I don't use anymore !!! You can have it if you are interested (for a small fee ). It's just sitting on my shelf, but I still have the box and everything.
It takes an Intel CPU, I have taken all the bits out and put them into my new system. It's a SB51G, good condition. I upgraded as I needed more space inside for a 3rd Harddrive.
Make me an offer if you are interested.
Cheers
Cris.
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#176388 - 22/08/2003 10:22
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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If each pair was a bank instead of each slot being a bank, would I get better performance if I plugged them in thus?:
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Yes, Asus even color-codes their motherboards specifically for and like this.
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#176389 - 22/08/2003 10:29
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Wow, I love this forum. That's great information! Thanks everyone!
/me makes note to re-arrange his chips when he gets home.
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#176390 - 27/08/2003 06:51
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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I took the plunge today, and my new PC is on order:
- Shuttle SN45G (from Microdirect)
- Athlon XP3200 (also from Microdirect)
- 2x512Mb PC3200 DDR (from Crucial)
I've already got these other ingredients:
- Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse, etc.
- Maxtor 250Gb ATA133 hard disk
For now, I'm going to be putting a PlexWriter 24/10/40A in it. I'll look at DVD/CDRW combo drives later.
The next thing on the list is a graphics card. I'm intrigued by pca's comment about fan placement. Can someone explain this more fully?
Anyway, given that, I'll probably plump for the ATI Radeon 9800. From reading Tom's Hardware, it seems that getting the 256Mb model is not worth the expense compared to the 128Mb model. What do others think?
More importantly, however: which brand card should I get? I'm a little confused by the plethora of different options. Should I get a Hercules or a Gigabyte? Do ATI do their own retail version?
Normally, I'd have gone for a card from Asus, but they only seem to do nVidia, and apparently, they won't fit.
_________________________
-- roger
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#176391 - 27/08/2003 07:09
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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Actually, looking at the new nvidia cards, it may no longer be a problem.
When I put together the shuttle games machine, the high-end nvidia card was the FX5800, which had a soddin' ENORMOUS fan and heatsink on it, which used up an entire extra slot to the left of the card. The shuttle motherboards have (unusually) the AGP slot to the left of the PCI one, so if you attempted to fit an FX5800 card you'd find that the fan assembly stuck out past the side of the case by about a centimeter. I ended up going for a 9700 instead, which aside from anything else was faster anyway, and fitted neatly.
Now, however, it seems that the FX5900 chipset has a better thermal management system(tm), as can be seen here. You may well find that everything fits, although I'm not sure whether the power requirements might be a bit much. That said, the 9700 isn't exactly low-power either, and it's fine in my shuttle.
pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#176392 - 27/08/2003 08:27
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: pca]
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journeyman
Registered: 29/07/2003
Posts: 66
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
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The fan assembly on the BFG 5900 I bought occupies the adjacent pci slot. There are a bunch of brands with different cooler designs that only occupy the AGP slot.
_________________________
Hello, my name is Bingo. I like to climb on things. Can I have a banana? eek eek.
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#176393 - 27/08/2003 08:39
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: pca]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Be careful when shopping for FX 5900 cards for Shuttle systems. While they don't all have massive blowers sitting on top, some do have larger then normal heatsinks still that will hang out the side of the Shuttle. I'd check some place like the SFF Tech.com boards for compatibility.
Memory wise, 256 might be a bit much. All hints from id were pointing to probably 128 needed to run Doom 3 with the highest quality textures. Games will probably start going beyond 128 sometime in late 2004.
ATI, They do make their own cards as well, but I hear in Europe, the "powered by ATI cards" are more common. In most cases, they are the same board design, but with a different company actually doing the manufacturing work. Overall, I have heard good things about the Hercules boards.
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#176394 - 28/08/2003 00:04
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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- 2x512Mb PC3200 DDR (from Crucial)
...has now turned up. Not a lot of use without the rest of the PC. Most frustrating.
_________________________
-- roger
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#176395 - 28/08/2003 00:59
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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...has now turned up. Not a lot of use without the rest of the PC. Most frustrating
I've had the same problem before, Crucial can be most irritatingly quick at deliverying sometimes. I once ordered at about 10pm on a Tuesday and the goods arrived at noon on Wednesday, no idea how they managed that...
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#176396 - 28/08/2003 06:22
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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FWIW, my recently ordered Crucial memory (two pairs of 512MB sticks for a total of 2GB of memory) was all bad. I'd suggest you run Memtest first thing.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#176397 - 28/08/2003 06:54
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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I'd suggest you run Memtest first thing
Good advice. I find that surprising though -- I've had no problems with Crucial in the past, and have had lots of problems with other brands.
_________________________
-- roger
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#176398 - 28/08/2003 07:00
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Ahh, dammit. I meant Corsair. Nevermind.
Still a reasonable thing to find out about first, though, and not after you're done configuring stuff. As it is now, I've got an oddly corrupt Windows filesystem due to it.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#176399 - 28/08/2003 07:37
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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My 256MB SODIMM from Crucial went bad after a while. I wonder how long the guarantee on these things are?
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#176400 - 28/08/2003 07:54
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: tman]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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Most have a lifetime warranty.
_________________________
Donato MkII/080000565 MkIIa/010101253 ricin.us
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#176401 - 28/08/2003 07:55
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I wonder how long the guarantee on these things are? Lifetime
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#176402 - 28/08/2003 08:15
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Cool. I'll have to see if I can get it replaced. And now to find the receipt which I've most probably thrown away...
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#176403 - 28/08/2003 09:54
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: Roger]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
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I just put a new machine together 2 weeks ago. The video card I chose was the Radeon 9800 Pro AIW. I am waiting for HL2 (played HL and TFC religiously for a LONG time), and wanted a vid card that I figured could push the game.
So far, I love the 9800 Pro AIW. I haven't tried hooking it up to the satellite yet to play with the PVR, but will probably get to rewiring the house for it over this weekend. The framerates in the games I have been playing (BF1942, DC and SWG) have been great with most of the detail maxed.
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#176404 - 28/08/2003 10:46
Re: Speccing out a new PC
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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FWIW, my recently ordered Crucial Corsair memory (two pairs of 512MB sticks for a total of 2GB of memory) was all bad. I'd suggest you run Memtest first thing. Hmm, I bought Corsair, too, so I'd like to take your advice do an extensive memory test. I'm aware that the cursory RAM test the BIOS does at bootup can't show all possible kinds of memory errors, but I've never bothered to do a full test using third-party software. What's the best "free" memory test utility out there?
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