#186279 - 23/10/2003 04:20
What do you think of this behaviour?
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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While this was happening, there was this, and most amzingly, this
were the people justified?
_________________________
--
Murray
I What part of 'no' don't you understand?
Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?
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#186280 - 23/10/2003 07:55
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 770
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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OK, I'll take a stab.
Were the people justified? Hmm... Define "the people" and "justified". Well, no, not literally. 
Bush was expressing gratitude to one of the few countries that gave full support to his war. Seems reasonable to me.
The street protestors were expressing their views. Also reasonable in a free society. Any protest, though, may get ugly as this one did: participation was voluntary, and risks assumed. Protestors tend to be, by their very nature, passionate; collecting in groups tends to amplify that passion. (Our church's assistant pastor, passionate herself on many social causes, once tried to get the church youth group she led - with some kids as young as 7 - to participate in a protest in DC. The pastor nixed that on issues of safety.)
The members of parliament definately were out of order, and rightly asked to leave. There are procedures in parliament that members are sworn to follow, and they weren't following them. Perhaps they could have joined the protestors outside, and helped to keep things under control there.
Just my thoughts.
-jk
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#186281 - 23/10/2003 09:05
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: jmwking]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It seems to me that the potentially illegal imprisonment of two Australian citizens is more important than the propriety of parliamentary procedure. I would assume that the MPs had been otherwise barred from speaking with Bush and that that was their only opportunity. At the same time, I'm sure they realize that Bush has no real interest in human rights and they specifically planned to raise a stink about it in order to possibly humiliate him into releasing them. I'm still of the opinion that the lives of those two people outweighs any notions of simple propriety.
I'll have to note that I know nothing of the two imprisoned people, and they may well have been legitimate prisoners of war had they been imprisoned in a legal manner. I think that all the talk about ``illegal combatants'' is ridiculous. We should treat them the same whether they were unifomed or not. That's basic human decency, not some piece of law to be twisted for one's own purposes.
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Bitt Faulk
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#186282 - 23/10/2003 09:09
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It became violent when some of the protesters broke through police lines. It is not clear if the protesters became violent or if the police became violent or both. Crowds often have lives of their own. Seemingly slight pushes from the back can become surges at the front. The break could have been unintentional. Then again, it may well have been purposeful. I guess I'm saying that, from that article, it's not clear what happened, but basing my assumptions of Australian police on what I feel about American police, I can easily see that they were looking for an excuse to whack a few folks.
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Bitt Faulk
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#186283 - 23/10/2003 09:47
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5680
Loc: London, UK
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I think that all the talk about ``illegal combatants'' is ridiculous. We should treat them the same whether they were unifomed or not.
Not at all. There's two problems here:
1. The people in Guantanamo were illegal combatants. Combatants are required by the Geneva Convention to wear uniform (or something else that identifies them as combatants). This is designed to protect civilians -- after all, if one side can't tell the difference, what's to stop them shooting innocent people? If you don't wear a uniform, you're an illegal combatant.
2. On the other hand, there's no reason to entirely suspend someone's human rights just because you're not bound to the terms of the Geneva Convention in their case.
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-- roger
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#186284 - 23/10/2003 09:49
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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"I love free speech".
Yeah, why do I not believe it?
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#186285 - 23/10/2003 10:26
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: Daria]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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It seems that when George speaks, it always ends up costing me something. I'd love a free speech for once.
-Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#186286 - 23/10/2003 11:25
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Your second point is the one I meant. I recognize why they're considered illegal, and agree with the reasoning, but just because that's the case shouldn't mean that we should ignore rights that should be given to everyone.
We should try to be better than they are.
My point is that I think that the ``illegal combatant'' thing is just a shield for doing whatever we feel like.
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Bitt Faulk
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#186287 - 23/10/2003 17:56
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I'm sure they realize that Bush has no real interest in human rights..
Nice, Bitt. If people have the opinion that Bush is not a human rights advocate, fine. But to claim that someone would "realize" that he has "no real interest in human rights" is stating it as if it were fact. Whatever.
About the "illegal combatants," I think it's similar to the abortion fiasco. Here's how I see that issue and how it applies (in my mind) to the War on Terror.
Basically, I think that people agree on 90% of the issue but neither side is good at explaining the other 10.. Sure, with abortion, you have your NWO fanatics and right-wing cooks who are into the issue for pure power grabs (and the politicians who pander to them), but when you come down to it, the only thing that rational people disagree on is when life begins. Granted, that bullet point is a really hard one to prove one way or another (or is it?) but people tend to agree on just about everything else... (ie, no "Pro Choice" person would walk up to a 1 month old baby girl and stick a shaft of metal in her brain and no "Pro Life" person would seriously think that the government has any right to deem what is legal for a woman to do with her own body.) So, except for the sticky issue of when life begins, there is a lot of common ground...
A similar case with the war on terror... Besides the "Bush haters" who are still upset over the election of 2000 and others who are just hopeless party liners, I think that the "War on Terrorism" has one major point that people are not seeing eye to eye on and that is the concept of "War." Some people look at what is going on in the world and are worried that it might bring about WWIII. But there are others in the intelligence community who think that this is World War 4 and the Western World just realized it. You see, WW3 was the Cold War and Democracy and Capitolism (no need to appologize for being capitolists, none of us would have computers or empegs if we didn't live in a capitolist world) won that war. If you look back at all the weird stuff that went down after WWII, none of it makes sense until you look at the big picture. And when you look at the big picture, horrible acts by the CIA don't seem so bad as a communist state.
For example, many people think Afghanistan was pointless (in the 80's) or Korea or Vietnam. But if you look at the big picture, those things added up to Communism's fall. So did McDonald's in Moscow. Back to WW4 (current day)...
Likewise, some people look at 9/11 as a "day" when in fact, it was an act of war. And that war had been going on since the late 70's but we never knew it. I hate to break it to some of you, but radical Islam, however small a percentage of Islam as a whole, wants us destroyed. They do not want us out of Holy Lands, they do not want a sweet trade agreement - they want us 6 feet under. This isn't like releasing a German Nazi at the end of WWII. A terrorist isn't going to just go home and thank Allah it's over. Rather he is going to plot your destruction.
And I think that's the major issue that people don't see eye to eye on. Some people think that 9/11 was a single event while others know (and I say KNOIW because it's clear as day if you pay attention) that this is an on going War. No, it is not the West vs. Islam, because without our Muslim allies, we wouldn't be doing as good as we are. But it IS democracy and freedom vs. terror.
And to boot, I think that we are winning finally. Have you seen how many Al-Kinda ranking officials we have captured or killed? And best of all, we have a democracy on the way in Afghanistan and another in Iraq. Those two countries just so happen to border that largest financer of terrorism: Iran which is also at the point of imploding. I don't think that it will happen as quickly as it did with Eastern Europe, but I see this spreading through the Mid-East. There are enough people in the world that are sick of terrorists hijacking their religion and who also want the simple right to vote. Damn, even Saudi Arabia had its first election within the last week. So if some people out there are all in a hissy fit because the government has the ability to find out that you download porn or shop at Amazon.com then that person is either failing to see the big picture or is simply too wrapped up in their own political mindset to think rationally. (The real test to find out "who" is "what" is to see if they are happy when there is good news about the war on terror or pissed because it's happening during President Bush's stay in office.
Yet, like I said earlier, except for the people who are still mad that Gore didn't win the election or who live for redistribution of wealth (and thank God they are a minority) I think that most people agree on 90% of the issue. This is the first time that I've writen this out (been chewing on it for quite a while) so I'm sorry if I'm a bit scattered in explaining. I never took a debate class. 
BTW: I voted for Nader.
EDIT: Re-reading that, I realized that there was no need to bring up the abortion debate as a comparison. And even though I just wrote where I think each side is coming from without taking a stand either way, please don't go OT with it, start a new thread if you're that passionate about it!
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (23/10/2003 17:59)
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Brad B.
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#186288 - 23/10/2003 18:08
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Bad choice of words on my part. I meant that I'm sure they feel that Bush has no interest in human rights. I happen to agree, but that's beside the point.
You imply how bad a communist state would be, but then say that the relaxation of our civil liberties is an okay compromise. But that's exactly why you think a communist state would be so bad. (I assume. It's certainly what most people seem to think. The economic communism itself isn't necessarily so bad, except for it doesn't really work at that extreme. Capitalism doesn't work at that extreme, either.)
The problem with the ``illegal combatants'' situation is that people, including US citizens, can be scooped up and imprisoned without any sort of justification. Okay, so I'm lumping in the Patriot Act, but it's all the same thing in my mind. Do we have any proof that that Padillo guy had a dirty bomb? We can only go by what some folks have told us. And what would be wrong with having a public hearing on it?
Oh, and, by the way, the only good news I've heard about the ``war on terror'' is that Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were deposed. I can't come up with much else. Nor do I think that their successors will be significantly better.
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Bitt Faulk
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#186289 - 23/10/2003 18:56
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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You may have missed stories like this, this or this. Not to mention this.
Fair enough on me reading too much into the word "realize" or your use of it and if that's your opinion on the matter, I respect that as well. In my defense, I did say that this was my first time writing any of this, so I guess it's understandable if I didn't connect a few things properly.
I don't see how the Patriot Act, if used the way it's writen would infringe on my civil rights. I think some people are just afraid of what it "could be used for" in a big brother view of things. But if you take just a second to see how this is an on going war, and not just a battle that took place in Afghanistan, then releasing captured combatants seems premature. To me, it'd be like the Canadians, American and British releasing any captured German soldiers a day or so after D-Day so that they could be killed by them in later battles. So, in that sense, I agree with you on the "90%" that humans deserve to be treated a certain way and that we could prehaps do more. But my "10%" is that we are still at war and those captured have no intention of calling it a day.
A public hearing would reveal tactics and sources. You knew that!
I certainly hope that most people don't think that economic communism is okay. There are plenty of other nations in the world that view life this way, and I'm confused why someone would continue to live in the US if that's what they'd prefer for an economy.
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Brad B.
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#186290 - 23/10/2003 21:33
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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I don't see how the Patriot Act, if used the way it's writen would infringe on my civil rights.
While I don't know the act myself, there have been current affairs items on it over here. It seems to spell out the right for authorities to detain you for many hours, without arrest, for even a suspicion that you might be doing something illegal.
I, and many others, have issue with the 'illegal combatants' being held in a military area in a part of the world where there are no legal rights nor access. The point that Sen. Bob Brown was making was that if these people have done something wrong, arrest them or at least declare them prisoners of war. At that point, they have the right to be deported back here, and that's what we want.
The arrogance that US forces hide behind the 'letter of the law', especially when it suits them, is not lost in the news over here.
I heard an interview with the Senator this morning, and he did talk with Bush before he left the chamber. But he brought attention to the issue by speaking out of order which took real guts.
A public hearing would reveal tactics and sources.
The call is not for a public hearing, just for legal rights of the prisoners.
It is really scary how little the US public knows about international events (present company excepted).
This cracked my up when it aired last night
http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/news/s971880.htm
_________________________
--
Murray
I What part of 'no' don't you understand?
Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?
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#186291 - 23/10/2003 23:16
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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no need to appologize for being capitolists, none of us would have computers or empegs if we didn't live in a capitolist world I beg to differ on this point.
Before I continue, keep in mind all my comments beyond this point are more towards science and such, and not political.
Anyhow. Think back to the major scientific discoveries of our time. Major physics laws being written, the discovery of how to fly, and other things like the foundation for modern medicine. These came about in a very comunistic way. Someone discovered something, and shared it with others. This led to more improvements on the base idea, and new discoveries came from these improvements.
Now compare this to today. Major breakthroughs are being patented, thus restricting who can use them. Drug companies are a big problem, with their desire to have a competitive edge keeping research out of the hands of many qualified people. Imagine if every drug researcher in the world was working together instead of against each other. Software companies are also becoming problamatic today as well. Microsoft's capital success has held back the industry. Take for example the effects of them winning the browser war. Their OS still lacks features others have had for ages now, and their inability to secure their products are costing companies millions in lost time and data. I'm sure you can see where I am going with this part, and so I'll end it. Linux is definitly a communistic approach to software development, and outside MS FUD, the industry tends to agree. Why else would companies like IBM and SGI be investing tons of money into it?
The sharing of ideals is not a bad thing. But yet, capitalistic supporters would have you believe otherwise.
Now to get my political views out of the way. I actually like most of the ways things are done in the USA. Lately though, I have had a major dislike for the pure capitalistic laws being passed, such as the DMCA. As others have said, an extreme to either way (capitalism/communism) is a bad situation.
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#186292 - 24/10/2003 04:53
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I disagree with this. Drug companies would have no incentive to invest in research if there was no benefit in doing so. Why would they dump millions of dollars into a drug if they had to give their findings away?
And Linux is not a success in the public arena. Sorry. Tech savy people think it's cool, and it is a great product, but it has zero market penetration for public use. Yet I think you confuse Microsoft's "monopolistic" success with capitolistic success. Microsoft is a monopoly, and because of that, it has little incentive to advance itself excpet when it wants to compete against itself. Monopolies are no good. My guess is that IBM and SGI have invested in Linux because of their dislike for Microsoft (because it is a monopoly, not a capitolistic success) and because investing in something like Apple would be helping a competitor.
I personally don't care if one drug company or another has a patent, as long as the product is available to the public. Sure, if companies worked together, they "could" get more done, but none of them would because there would be no competition. Competition breeds innovation. Just ask anybody who has only one local cable TV company or power company. Is there service any good or prices affordable? Now ask someone who lives in a community with competition.
But again, Hugo would not have been able to find any factory to make the empeg if there weren't there to make money. And he would not have found any of his investors. I for one would not have been able to afford one.
Just looking at the technology advancements of the last 100 years, wih the protections of the patent, and you'll be hard pressed to prove that competition doesn't work.
My main beef is that for Americans to be disgusted with capitolism makes no sense because our country IS a capitolistic democracy. There is nothing wrong with that. It is what makes our country what it is today. If someone has some romantic notions of socialism, they can move to France or China, that's fine with me.
Like many people have said, on a small scale this stuff can work. Just look at LogoEdit, HiJack, Jemplode, emphatic, etc etc all being given to us. But believe me, that won't work on a large scale.
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Brad B.
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#186293 - 24/10/2003 06:11
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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"Now ask someone who lives in a community with competition."
...like California.
[evil grin]
-Zeke
ps: just kidding, I mostly agree with you, although some would argue that it's a capitolistic oligarchy - the very wealthy & captains of industry and their lobby groups.
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WWFSMD?
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#186294 - 24/10/2003 07:17
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Imagine if every drug researcher in the world was working together instead of against each other. Yes, this would be great, but not a reasonable expectation given human nature. We are all selfish, and therefore collaboration for the "common good" might happen from time to time, but it'll never be the norm while human nature is what it is. People work fine as long as they can see a direct benefit, and sometimes they’ll even do it for an indirect one, but few people will take an obvious sacrifice so that people they’ve never met will profit. Sure you can argue that life would be better overall in the long run for everyone, but we are a people of immediacy and not many can make those kinds of sacrifices. I believe it will take a complete re-wiring of human nature before anything like communism could ever work.
Take for example the effects of them winning the browser war. Their OS still lacks features others have had for ages now, and their inability to secure their products are costing companies millions in lost time and data. I don't think anyone argues that capitalism produces the most effective result (ok some do, but not most), only that it produces a better one than anything else can. I’ll have to agree with Brad about Linux. As cool as it is, it’s no good for the public. Just ask my wife. She’s an average user who can generally figure stuff out on computers. Sure she’s had windows for the last ten years, but she’s no slouch at picking stuff up. Still, she gets massively frustrated with my machine whenever she has to use it because some of the stuff doesn’t “just work”. Linux is certainly better at some things than windows, but I’d hardly consider it an example of communism overcoming capitalism.
On top of this, Linux isn’t truly an example of communism anyway. If it were, you’d have someone managing all of the resources being poured into it so that efforts were not duplicated. You can’t tell me that the same problems haven’t been solved multiple ways in Linux and some have been found to be better than others. In pure communism resources are managed perfectly so that everyone produces what is necessary and best for the common good and efforts are not redundant.
The bottom line is that capitalism is inefficient because resources are duplicated and the best solutions aren’t always reached; however, communism doesn’t work because it is against human nature, at least on the large scale, and impossible to implement without perfect knowledge if everyone’s abilities and needs. The best we can do for now is a hybrid of the two (which is what we have in the U.S.) where we try to leverage the strengths of both systems. Better than all of this would be to change human nature, but that takes us into a whole different realm of discussion!
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#186295 - 24/10/2003 07:50
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: wfaulk]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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The Bill of Rights was intended for the people of the USA, not for some dirty ragheads trying to blow us up. I say fine, they want out of prison, we should put a bullet between their eyes and dump them in the sea. They're lucky we have the good will to let them live. I sure as hell know those jihad bastards wouldn't be taking any prisoners. It's absurd to be fighting these people to the death one minute, and then the next start worrying about whether or not their "living conditions" are good enough. Why don't we send the fuckers to paradise and be done with it.
These protesters don't really give a rat's ass about the well-being of these prisoners, or else they would have been very glad to see the downfall of Iraq and Afghanistan. How many of those little cowards did you see protesting when the video tapes of captured soldiers in Iraq were released? The truth is that they sympathize with the terrorists and their cause. They hate America and want to see us crash and burn, and they want to see the Arabs completely wipe out the Jews. That is their real motive.
Fuck them, fuck allah, and fuck anybody doesn't like it. We've got more bombs than they've got turbans, so they're fucked.
I may not be politically correct, but you know I'm right.
Edited by d33zY (24/10/2003 07:56)
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#186296 - 24/10/2003 08:12
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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releasing captured combatants seems premature But that's the point. There's no reason for us to believe that these people are combatants at all other than by taking the word of our administration, who have demonstrated themselves to be untrustworthy.
Regardless, I'm not suggesting that they all be released. All I'm suggesting is that we truly determine whether they're supposed to be there and then treat the ones that really are in accordance with the Geneva Convention, regardless of whether they were illegal combatants or not. The letter of the law should be a baseline for how well to treat people, not the ceiling.
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Bitt Faulk
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#186297 - 24/10/2003 08:13
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I may not be politically correct, but you know I'm right. No, you're wrong because you haven't even begun to touch on the issue. The issue is not what the law says, but how well we should treat people above and beyond that.
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Bitt Faulk
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#186298 - 24/10/2003 08:33
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: wfaulk]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I think we're treating them pretty well. Read a book about what french prisons were like a few decades ago. That's harsh punishment.
Guantamano Bay is just another bandwagon for anti-bush people to jump on.
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#186299 - 24/10/2003 08:56
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/08/2000
Posts: 351
Loc: chicago
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And Linux is not a success in the public arena. Sorry. Tech savy people think it's cool, and it is a great product, but it has zero market penetration for public use. I strongly disagree with this. On the desktop, you might be right, but that's not where innovation has been for the past five years. Most of the interesting work has been on the server side. How many of the web sites you visit and rely on every day run on linux (or BSD or other "free" operating systems)? Do you rely on NOAA's weather forecasts? Do you shop at Home Depot? Do you ever use google, amazon or orbitz? How would their business models be affected if they had to license (very expensive) Microsoft server OS's to run their sites?
The public uses (and relies on) Linux every day. They just don't happen to realize it.
--dan.
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#186300 - 24/10/2003 09:12
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: djc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Agreed - Linux currently appears to have the slight edge over Mac OS whichever. Okay this is still way behind Microsoft, but gaining ground.
On the server side, as djc pointed out, more and more companies, organisations and governments are relying on linux. Even power computing and analysis is going the way of the linux cluster.
With countries like Peru and Brazil mandating linux for government bodies (as a way to avoid the Microsoft lock-in), and Gremany on the bandwagon as well, the movememnt is really gaining ground with budget conscious groups.
And now China - well, the single largest country (population wise) is going very linux. This might have an impact. Seems like there are already more Chinese online than Americans, and they have only just begun.
And from personal experience I have seen banks, oil companies and utilities moving off MS, purely because of the worms, viruses and other popular things script kiddies do to MS platforms. Even going so far as building desktops which look and feel like Windows, but are actually XFree86 based.
So Linux - huge success in public arena, and getting much more so.
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#186301 - 24/10/2003 10:34
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> The truth is that they sympathize with the terrorists and their cause.
The truth is people like you and Bush want us to become everything you accuse them of being.
> They hate America and want to see us crash and burn
No, I want to see America live up to its ideals, not be dragged down to your level. We have a constitution, and we have laws and treaties and standards of human decency which we supposedly live by, and people like you would throw it all away because of your hate and fear.
> Fuck them, fuck allah, and fuck anybody doesn't like it.
Go to hell.
> I may not be politically correct, but you know I'm right.
No, you are just an ass. I can't believe people have been defending you here recently, you are the worst example of America.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#186302 - 24/10/2003 11:08
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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SE, I disagree with pretty much everything you said, but one thing in particular struck me as something I had to comment on:
> A similar case with the war on terror... Besides the "Bush haters" who are still upset over the election of 2000 and others who are just hopeless party liners,
You know, I didn't hate Bush at first. I admit I am a Democrat and I did vote for Gore, though I was not crazy about him either. Frankly, until 9/11 I thought Bush was kind of dumb but basically harmless. I had no real ill feeling towards him. But then he cynically used the tragedy of 9/11 for his own partisan political gain. He used it to damage civil liberties, he used it as a cover to slip anti-consumer laws in while everyone was concentrating on our loss, and he used it as an excuse to start an unjustified war with Iraq that people in his administration had wanted for years before 9/11 ever happened. I do not hate Bush because I am a Democrat or am mad about the election, he has fully earned my hatred purely through his own actions.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#186303 - 24/10/2003 15:46
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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d33zY
you arrogant little fu ck.
The Bill of Rights was intended for the people of the USA, not for some dirty ragheads trying to blow us up. I say fine, they want out of prison, we should put a bullet between their eyes and dump them in the sea.
how is this different to being a terrorist? What you're really saying is that USA has the right to walk into any country, take people prisoner, keep them in a place that isn't legally touchable and kill them when the interrogation is done. How is that not bully tactics.
And before you roll out the 'but they had WMDs targeted at us' arguement, where are the WMD's this whole war was suposed to be over? THAT'S the key issue that is coming out now, and is why Bush is losing popularity.
They're lucky we have the good will to let them live. I sure as hell know those jihad bastards wouldn't be taking any prisoners. It's absurd to be fighting these people to the death one minute, and then the next start worrying about whether or not their "living conditions" are good enough. Why don't we send the fuckers to paradise and be done with it.
Let's put this in perspective. You're sitting at home, Watching TV. Next thing the 'police' bust in and put you in a cell. You are not allowed a lawyer and don't see or talk to anyone for three years.
Sound familar? This is actually what your 'patriot act' allows.
Where's your proof that the people that have been captured are part of the Taliban or al Quaeda (sp?)? Why do you believe the administration which now has the power to lock you up like the previous scenario.
hey hate America and want to see us crash and burn, and they want to see the Arabs completely wipe out the Jews. That is their real motive.
you damn right there. Coz the US administration keeps thinking might makes right. This is a region who has known war and conlict for centuries. They are so full of hate they are prepared to die for it. And the US admin goes and pokes them with a stick.
Name one time in history where beating the crap out of something made them more endeared to you and actually respect you.
We've got more bombs than they've got turbans, so they're [censored].
tell that to the families of the service men and women who've been killed since the 'war' is over. you think that holding more bombs is going to make this right?
I may not be politically correct, but you know I'm right.
you are neither. It's your line of thought which gives decent, thinking US folk a really, really bad name.
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Murray
I What part of 'no' don't you understand?
Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?
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#186304 - 24/10/2003 15:50
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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Oh yeah. You still haven't commented on whether the behaviour was correct in Parliament.
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Murray
I What part of 'no' don't you understand?
Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?
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#186305 - 24/10/2003 17:57
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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Anonymous
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how is this different to being a terrorist? What you're really saying is that USA has the right to walk into any country, take people prisoner, keep them in a place that isn't legally touchable and kill them when the interrogation is done. How is that not bully tactics.
Yes we do have that right. If a group of people kills 3000 of our citizens, then we have the right to wipe them from the face of the earth. Bully tactics? I don't think so. Defensive tactics. The weaklings can't pick a fight with the big guy and then claim he's a bully when he defends himself.
You're sitting at home, Watching TV. Next thing the 'police' bust in
then I'd be ready. I'm armed to the teeth and I would kill every fu cking one of them.
Where's your proof that the people that have been captured are part of the Taliban or al Quaeda (sp?)?
So now soldiers fighting in a war need proof before they pull the trigger? All this time we've been searching for Bin Laden, and all we needed is an arrest warrant and a set of handcuffs. Maybe you don't trust my government to take care of the foreign terrorists, but I do.
They are so full of hate they are prepared to die for it. And the US admin goes and pokes them with a stick.
No, we dropped some bigass bombs on their heads.
Name one time in history where beating the crap out of something made them more endeared to you and actually respect you.
WWII
tell that to the families of the service men and women who've been killed since the 'war' is over. you think that holding more bombs is going to make this right?
Killing all the terrorists will make it right.
you are neither. It's your line of thought which gives decent, thinking US folk a really, really bad name
Sorry, but from the european/australian perspective, decent US folk are socialist pussies who will do nothing about the terrorists and who will bow down to the UN and take it up the ass. The rest of America wants to see these ragheads f ucking die.
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#186306 - 24/10/2003 17:59
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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Anonymous
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Oh yeah. You still haven't commented on whether the behaviour was correct in Parliament.
Correct? I think it showed where their loyalties are. (with the terrorists)
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#186307 - 24/10/2003 18:05
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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And before you roll out the 'but they had WMDs targeted at us' arguement, where are the WMD's this whole war was suposed to be over? THAT'S the key issue that is coming out now, and is why Bush is losing popularity.
I don't care if Iraq only had a plastic BB gun. I also find it funny that all the UN diehards or getting mad at the US for simply holding up the UN's resolutions.
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#186308 - 24/10/2003 18:31
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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My main beef is that for Americans to be disgusted with capitolism makes no sense because our country IS a capitolistic democracy. There is nothing wrong with that. It is what makes our country what it is today. If someone has some romantic notions of socialism, they can move to France or China, that's fine with me.
Bollocks to that. The whole point of Freedom and democracy is that people are free to choose. If for some reason the Red Communist party managed to fairly win the next election, then _you_ could go live in France or China or wherever if you didn't like it. You have absolutely _no_ right to force _your_ preferred economic theory on your fellow citizens, regardless of how successful it may have been, or how popular it is at the moment.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#186309 - 24/10/2003 18:38
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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You're sitting at home, Watching TV. Next thing the 'police' bust in
then I'd be ready. I'm armed to the teeth and I would kill every [censored] one of them.
I'd pay to see that.
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-- DLF
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#186310 - 24/10/2003 18:42
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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quit your crappy job and join the defense forces. put your money where your mouth is. Or does your red neck chafe too much in the uniform?
I promise not to feed the trolls anymore
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Murray
I What part of 'no' don't you understand?
Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?
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#186311 - 24/10/2003 23:53
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: djc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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And Linux is not a success in the public arena. Sorry. Tech savy people think it's cool, and it is a great product, but it has zero market penetration for public use. I strongly disagree with this. On the desktop, you might be right, I'm not even sure I'd say he's right there, either. Taking a look at my companies host file shows:
lid3213:~> perl -ne "print if /\blid?\d+\./" /etc/hosts | wc -l
736
lid3213:~> perl -ne "print if /\blid\d+\./" /etc/hosts | wc -l
480
lid3213:~>
The first number is the number of linux machines we have. The second number is how many of those are desktop machines.
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#186312 - 25/10/2003 00:00
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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What's capitolism? Is it like capitalism? Probably not...
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#186313 - 25/10/2003 02:11
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Alright. This post is being made with my red name actually meaning moderator.
Keep it a tad more civil, or loose access to the Off Topic section for a while.
I am pretty sure the people who this warning is directed at know who they are, so I won't name anyone here.
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#186314 - 25/10/2003 06:42
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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While I don't know the act myself, there have been current affairs items on it over here. It seems to spell out the right for authorities to detain you for many hours, without arrest, for even a suspicion that you might be doing something illegal.
Muzza, the Patriot Act isn't just for anybody doing "anything" illegal. It's to protect against terrorists who are actively in our country plotting against it. I agree that it is Drakonian and I am uncomfortable with it, but because of the overly lax borders we have in the United States and the unenforced immigration policies since forever ago, drastic measures need to be taken. And as much as I trust my government (no matter what political party they are from), I actually like the fact that some people are raising questions about it because it will keep things a little more honest. Of course, raising questions is a differant thing than spitting out unfounded claims of wrong doing. The conspiracy theorists can go fly a kite as far as I'm concerned. But they're too busy thinking that 5 Jews are sitting in that little pyramid on the back of our $1 bill ruling the world to be a real factor in this world.
The truth of the matter is that the US is afraid right now. Except for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, there really has never been any major attack on our own soil. We don't have any ally anywhere that can do a better job than we can. We can't count on the UN or EU or whatever to help us. They are incapable of it. Our backs are against the wall and some ugly things have to be done to get us through this. That's why I was talking about this being a "War" and not just a "Day called 9/11".
The point that Sen. Bob Brown was making was that if these people have done something wrong, arrest them or at least declare them prisoners of war. At that point, they have the right to be deported back here, and that's what we want.
You hit the nail right on the head here. Even the "20th hijacker" said "The US is my enemy, but I know it is an honest enemy". You see, we'd love to just declare them POW's but only if we could as part of a War on Terror. But there has never been (to my knowledge) a declared war involving a state (the USA) and an organization that isn't state sponsored (Al-Qaeda). Because of this, everyone is going to say "Those are prisoners from the war in Afghanistan and that war is over. Let them go." And since this is "on going", letting them go so that they can continue against us isn't going to happen.
Maybe a good solution would be for the USA to make arangments with allies like Australia (whose Special Forces were a MAJOR asset to us), UK, Italy, etc whereby they could get their criminals back as long as they met certain conditions including keeping them in captivity (after being formally charged) and maintaining isolation so that they can not pass on any information that they have obtained. I mean, come on, it has been long enough for us to get whatever intelligence we need from them.
The call is not for a public hearing, just for legal rights of the prisoners.
Bitt was calling for public hearings. He's just a BIG fan of Court TV (j/k Bitt! ).
It is really scary how little the US public knows about international events (present company excepted).
This cracked my up when it aired last night
I'm not even going to click on that link because I know it's true. It saddens me. But I bet 70% of us could name the cast of "Charles in Charge." It's almost funny how the more money we toss at education (rather than reforming it) the worse our students perform.
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Brad B.
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#186315 - 25/10/2003 06:43
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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"Now ask someone who lives in a community with competition."
...like California.
[evil grin]
-Zeke
Hehe, I was going to say "France and California" but I figured they have wild fires to deal with now. No point in bringing them into this mess!
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Brad B.
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#186316 - 25/10/2003 06:56
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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But that's the point. There's no reason for us to believe that these people are combatants at all other than by taking the word of our administration, who have demonstrated themselves to be untrustworthy.
You don't trust them, I do. Fair enough. Maybe I'm too trustworthy, I don't know. I remember specifically hearing about a plot to crash airlines into the World Trade Center and the White House in the early months of 2001 (during an interview with someone about the first Trade Center plot) and I said to myself, "well, Clinton is a goof-ball, but I'm sure he and the people we has working under him are on top of this. We probably have counter measures in place to stop this that I'll be reading about in 15 years." So when I woke up on 9/11/01 to the view of two towers burning, my reaction was "NO SH IT! They TOLD us there were going to do this!!" So call me naive I guess... But at least I don't just trust the people I vote for.
All I'm suggesting is that we truly determine whether they're supposed to be there and then treat the ones that really are in accordance with the Geneva Convention, regardless of whether they were illegal combatants or not.
I agree that this would be best IF the Geneva convention had some provision that allowed for a situation like that one we are in now. It is not within the scope of the Geneva Convention to have a war between a state and an organization in an ongoing war. The Convention will simply call for the combatants to be released yesterday despite the fact that they have not declared an end to their battle against us.
You're right, we are interpreting things so that they best suit our interests. But those interests are the self-preservation of our country and its citizens. We aren't doing this to throw our weight around or get sweet business deals, that's what leaders in France do.
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Brad B.
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#186317 - 25/10/2003 06:59
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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djc and Frog51, Okay Linux is cool. But as you guys pointed out, it still doesn't have the market penetration that Microsoft does. But Microsoft is a monopoly and Linux isn't truely communistic (as was pointed out earlier in this thread) so this is all trivial and not related to the subject at hand. And even if it WAS truely communistic, we are talking about an OS developement, not a form of government here.
OT: So is it Linux's fault when I get a 404?
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Brad B.
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#186318 - 25/10/2003 07:20
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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ninti, if you disagree with just about EVERYHING I've said, I don't really thnk that we can have a rational give and take here. I don't think anyone else here has had any trouble finding a bit of common ground.
I can at least empathize with you. Like I said, I voted for Nader because I wanted to be Democrat but just couldn't bring myself to like anybody running. But I didn't really HATE the Democrat party after 9/11 when I saw them paint themselves into a corner where anything that was good for our country became bad for them simply because it was happening during Bush's presidency. And worse yet, they were downright gleeful when they thought the Afghanistan war plan wasn't working (pretty hard for them to stand up on this one now huh?) and the same in Iraq (we don't have enough troops!)
Soooo.... we can't agree with anything, but I know how you feel when 9/11 made you nearly hate a whole political party.
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Brad B.
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#186319 - 25/10/2003 07:25
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: muzza]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I won't bother poking my head into your spat with d33zy, but there's no need for personal attacks. Freedom of expression should also apply to the non politically correct.
Oh yeah. You still haven't commented on whether the behaviour was correct in Parliament.
I think it was wrong, dead wrong. As a representitive of government, he has plenty of official, mandated ways to express his opinion. I think any citizen is within their rights to speak out like that in whatever venue they can find, but the Senator has a prefectly good soapbox he can stand on. I feel he was just doing this for his own poll numbers. Is there an election coming?
EDIT: There is nothing brave about speaking your opinion in a free country (except maybe when you're politically incorrect). Wanna see brave? Try standing in front of a tank in the Square.
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (25/10/2003 07:33)
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Brad B.
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#186320 - 25/10/2003 07:31
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Did you just put "election" and "Red Communist Party" in the same sentence?!?!? What planet are you from? Hey genexia, maybe I'm confusing you with another board member (and if I am, I applogize in advance) but aren't you in the USA on a work visa? So you hate our country SO much that you can't shut up about it but you seem to like the job situation here enough to collect a paycheck. (Again, if that's not you, I'm sorry.)
But regardless, you are the one imposing your European popular Socialism on the US because it's in fashion. Who knows, maybe Europe will debut Monarchies at the next Winter Fashion Show in Paris. I'm not imposing anything - I'm simply stating what this country was founded on. Founded on. Stands for. There is nothing about being "popular at the moment."
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Brad B.
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#186321 - 25/10/2003 07:33
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Damn I feel like a post whore.
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Brad B.
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#186322 - 25/10/2003 08:18
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Did you just put "election" and "Red Communist Party" in the same sentence?!?!? What planet are you from? Here in the UK, the Red Communist Party regularly stands in parliamentary elections. They never get many votes, though. That seems to me a much better way of writing off Communism than demonising it does. There's little point in a populist movement that's not actually popular.
Peter
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#186323 - 25/10/2003 08:21
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
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lid3213:~> perl -ne "print if /\blid\d+\./" /etc/hosts | wc -l Yup, there's an OS that's ready for the desktop if ever I saw one...
Peter
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#186324 - 25/10/2003 11:02
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Muzza, the Patriot Act isn't just for anybody doing "anything" illegal. It's to protect against terrorists who are actively in our country plotting against it.
Except it gives the power to the goverment the right to call anyone they want a terrorist, and furthermore, regardless of what it is meant to do, it is already being used in cases where there is plainly no terrorism. In fact, Ashcroft is actively telling people to use it non-terror related cases, and even has a roving seminar to tell local law enforcement how to do so. To even suggest at this point that it is for terrorism only is ludicrous, because it is already untrue, and who knows how many attrocities we will see further down the road.
> The truth of the matter is that the US is afraid right now.
Yeah, and Bush and his administration have maniplated that fear expertly. I think to Ashcroft, terror is not even really on his mind, he just wants to increase police power at any cost.
> ninti, if you disagree with just about EVERYHING I've said, I don't really thnk that we can have a rational give and take here.
Well, I did say "pretty much" everything. Yeah, we are about 180 degrees apart on the political spectrum, but I do have some respect for you. At least you argue rationally and without too much rancor and vitriol and rampant stupidity.
> But I didn't really HATE the Democrat party after 9/11 when I saw them paint themselves into a corner where anything that was good for our country became bad for them simply because it was happening during Bush's presidency.
Did we watch the same party? I became disgusted with the Democrats because they did not stand up to Bush at all and let them walk all over him because they were afraid. They didn't say enough, and they didn't do anything, to stop Bush from walking over the constitution and start his own personal war.
As for the Australian parlimant members; Bush doesn't allow anyone to criticize him to his face here. He doesn't hold press conferences, he illegally keeps protestors behind fences blocks away from anywhere he goes. Nobody here can stand up to him to his face, I am glad someone somewhere did.
Oh, and SE, we do agree on one thing, I think Linux is not ready for the general public to use yet too.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#186325 - 25/10/2003 19:43
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Did you just put "election" and "Red Communist Party" in the same sentence?!?!? What planet are you from? Hey genexia, maybe I'm confusing you with another board member (and if I am, I applogize in advance) but aren't you in the USA on a work visa? So you hate our country SO much that you can't shut up about it but you seem to like the job situation here enough to collect a paycheck. (Again, if that's not you, I'm sorry.)
Hmm, I really don't think that you've got me confused with someone else, so I can't accept that apology. But you did get a few things wrong;
I am in the USA because I married a US citizen. For the record, I have been unemployed for most of the past 18 months. And yes, it is hurting my family financially, and I don't get to buy many toys at the moment. But I don't gripe about it because I know that there are a lot of US citizens without jobs at the moment, and I don't feel that it would be my place to do so. My (US born) wife and son might prefer that I were more aggessive in my job hunting though. After all it affects them.
Another incorrect assumption that you have made is that I hate the USA. Nothing could be farther from the truth - It is a beautiful country whose citizens are kind and generous. I fully support the USA in her aspirations of liberty and justice.
But regardless, you are the one imposing your European popular Socialism on the US because it's in fashion.
Where the heck did you get this from? LOL. I haven't said anything about my economic beliefs. All I said was that you had no right to dictate that capitalism was the only option.
Who knows, maybe Europe will debut Monarchies at the next Winter Fashion Show in Paris. I'm not imposing anything - I'm simply stating what this country was founded on. Founded on. Stands for. There is nothing about being "popular at the moment."
Sorry, I just re-read the Declaration of Independance and I found absolutely nothing suggesting that unfettered captialism was the principle upon which this country was founded. Lots of stuff about a tyrannical King and his actions, but nothing about economic theory. Ironically, if there is one statement that is widely regarded to embody what this country is founded on, it is,
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness
Tell that to the guys in Cuba.
(Oh, wait a minute, you can't. You're not allowed to travel there.)
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#186326 - 25/10/2003 20:48
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Well, I'm not going to get into the political debate here at all anymore, because it is very clear some people here are very stuck in their ideals. Political debates are no fun, so I am going to bow out from most here on the boards.
edit-the rest of it here really has nothing to do with the rest of the topic, so I'm taking it out so this thread can die.
Edited by Drakino (26/10/2003 11:07)
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#186327 - 27/10/2003 00:54
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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If a group of people kills 3000 of our citizens, then we have the right to wipe them from the face of the earth
A group of people like... Iraq? With their Weapons of Mass Destruction?
I don't know how to break this to you, but despite President Bush and his co-conspirators' best efforts, involving several hundred billion dollars and two years of intense searching, no evidence that Iraq had anything to do with Al Quaeda flying airplanes into skyscrapers or possessed any WMDs has been found.
This may sound cold and uncaring, and I realize that on an individual level it is indeed tragic... but 3,000 people and a couple of skyscrapers are not even a pinprick in the resources of this country. You carry on as though this terrorist attack has destroyed us. Well, I'm here to tell you, we have hundreds of millions of people and thousands of skyscrapers.
John Aschcroft and his Patriot Act has done more harm to the basic foundations and values upon which this country was built than Osama Bin Laden could ever accomplish in his wildest dreams.
How many completely innocent people have been imprisoned under the auspices of the Patriot Act, without access to any legal representation or even anybody knowing where they were imprisoned? How many terrorists have been captured through the "protections" of the Patriot Act? (Hint: the answers may surprise you.)
Already we are seeing abuses of the Patriot Act along the same patterns that law officials utilize when they mis-use the RICO laws (which were originally designed to combat organized crime) for much lesser crimes when no definitive evidence is available.
Even the privilege, no, the right to express these thoughts in a public forum like this one is under attack. I have never in my life been so afraid for my country.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#186328 - 27/10/2003 05:39
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Dude, let this thread die! I'm getting an upset stomache!
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Brad B.
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#186329 - 27/10/2003 06:36
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Just for the record, I've enjoyed reading most of the posts in this thread even though I haven't felt compelled to post too much. I find political debate very interesting, even when people are stuck to their ideals. Until it get's personal, that is, and though there is a lot of that in this thread, there is also a fair amount of non-personal argument I find interesting.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#186330 - 28/10/2003 06:39
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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lid3213:~> perl -ne "print if /\blid\d+\./" /etc/hosts | wc -l Yup, there's an OS that's ready for the desktop if ever I saw one... Heh. What I meant to say was...
So, I clicked on the task bar to launch KWord, and selected File->Open, which popped open a new dialog box. From there, I navigated to the /etc folder, and selected the file called "hosts". I made sure to use the "import as text", since KWord didn't automatically recognize it as a text file. Then I scrolled through the file deleting anything that didn't have "lid" in it. There were a couple of times when I deleted the wrong lines, and didn't notice until that action was out of the undo buffer, so I had to revert to saved and start over. But eventually, when I got to the end of the document, I looked to see what line I was on.
Lordy, I'm glad I don't have to deal with Windows.
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#186331 - 28/10/2003 07:56
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Burn.
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Bitt Faulk
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#186332 - 28/10/2003 10:35
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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I know it was particularly offtopic, but as I abhor all politics and really have never heard of a politician I like or would would trust I thought I'd respond to the only bit of the conversation I knew anything about
Sorry
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#186333 - 28/10/2003 16:48
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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addict
Registered: 03/08/1999
Posts: 451
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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So tell me, deezy. Do you believe that might makes right? That if your country attacks another, then that should teach them never to mess with you again? Do you believe everything your leaders tell you? Do you wish to kill and obliterate everyone who disagrees with you? Do you believe that every day, no matter whether it's sacred to you or your enemy, is a good day to attack? And do you honestly think that you are right, and that everyone that disagrees with you is wrong, because of some divine mandate?
Good news! You're a fundamentalist Muslim! Here's your free pass to join the Taliban!
Have fun,
Paul
_________________________
Owner of Mark I empeg 00061, now better than ever - (Thanks, Rod!) - and Karma 3930000004550
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#186334 - 28/10/2003 22:32
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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A group of people like... Iraq? With their Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Like I said before, I don't care if Iraq only had a plastic BB gun. Saddam was our enemy, our allys' enemy, and an enemy of the Iraqi people. Getting rid of him is one step closer to a peaceful world.
And I hope you aren't being sarcastic with the weapons of mass destruction line. Remember all those dead Kurds and their disfigured descendants? And yet, somehow Bush becomes the bad guy.
Well, I'm here to tell you, we have hundreds of millions of people and thousands of skyscrapers.
Yeah, but it's like someone hitting your Ferrari with a golfclub. The car will still work fine, and it's still the baddest car around, but you're gonna kill the son of a b itch that did this. And try telling that to the survivors of the WTC that 3000 of our people being murdered is no big deal. If you're wife or your kid is murdered, hell that's only ONE person out of hundreds of millions. No big deal, right? So let it go? Maybe that's missing the point you were trying to make, but this IS a big deal, and we have to seek justice.
Already we are seeing abuses of the Patriot Act along the same patterns that law officials utilize when they mis-use the RICO laws
I won't disagree that there are many bad laws on the books. But there is one law that is the most important. And that is the 2nd article of the Bill of Rights - the right to bear arms. Whoever has the guns has the power. No administration can enforce their laws on an angry mob of 100 million armed americans. That is why I will never vote for any politician who supports "gun control" in any shape or form (ie, 99% of most liberals), and I will never give up my guns should they ever be banned. I am for crime control, not disarmament. Once we become disarmed, we are utterly defenseless and powerless. So I'm not afraid of the day the FBI starts arresting innocent people and the CIA starts suppressing free speech, because the rest of us will rise up and kill every last f ucking one of them.
Edited by d33zY (28/10/2003 22:58)
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#186335 - 28/10/2003 22:54
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: PaulWay]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Do you believe that might makes right?
Wow, that rhymes, and it's catchy; perfect propaganda for millions of idiots. Do you believe that might makes wrong? I think justice is right. I think cowardice is wrong. I think Saddam was wrong, Bin Laden was wrong, and the millions of ragheads that want to wage war on the West are wrong.
That if your country attacks another, then that should teach them never to mess with you again?
That's the point. Avoiding conflict may temporarily prevent a little bloodshed, but if you don't stand up for what is right then you will pay for it in the end. Ask the Jews who never stood up to Hitler. Just because America is strong and a group of rag-tag (pun intended) terrorists are relatively weak, it doesn't automatically make them right. How can you not see that? Do you have no concept of right and wrong, or good and evil? Are you so scared that you wouldn't fight for your right to exist and live in peace? Should we just bow down to any aggressor and give them what they want?
Most girls have more balls then some of you.
Do you believe everything your leaders tell you?
Do you believe all the propaganda you hear?
Do you wish to kill and obliterate everyone who disagrees with you?
No, but i do wish to kill and obliterate (or at least stop) murderous terrorists who want to wipe out the western world. They want to exterminate anyone and everyone who is not just like them. Isn't that the definition of Fascism? (you should know that word - liberals like to use it a lot.)
Do you believe that every day, no matter whether it's sacred to you or your enemy, is a good day to attack?
Do you ask stupid questions?
And do you honestly think that you are right, and that everyone that disagrees with you is wrong, because of some divine mandate?
Obviously you think that you are right and that I am wrong.
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#186336 - 29/10/2003 10:19
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Saddam was our enemy, our allys' enemy, and an enemy of the Iraqi people. Saddam was enough of a friend that Rumsfeld and co. were happy to sell him all sorts of nasty weapons. Remember all those dead Kurds and their disfigured descendants? Have you seen any of the material about the effects of all that depleted uranium the US has vapourized all over Iraq and Afghanistan? it's like someone hitting your Ferrari with a golfclub. The car will still work fine, and it's still the baddest car around, but you're gonna kill the son of a bitch that did this. Actually, no, I wouldn't kill them. I'd be pissed off at them, and if they were caught, I'd certainly press charges, but I wouldn't kill them. What are you... the mafia? And try telling that to the survivors of the WTC that 3000 of our people being murdered is no big deal. If you're wife or your kid is murdered, hell that's only ONE person out of hundreds of millions. No big deal, right? So let it go? I read several reports of victims' families saying just that. Does wiping out a couple nations bring back the victims from the dead? we have to seek justice. And how was going to war with Iraq "justice", when not a single one of the perps was from, or was supported by Iraq? Shouldn't we have been going to war with Saudi Arabia? Once we become disarmed, we are utterly defenseless and powerless. Ah, yes. What would Ghandi and Martin Luther King have been able to do if they didn't have their weapons at hand? So I'm not afraid of the day the FBI starts arresting innocent people and the CIA starts suppressing free speech, because the rest of us will rise up and kill every last [censored] one of them. If it's worth killing them for then, then why the hell don't you get off your ass now, and try and prevent them from gaining that power to begin with? Are you that short sighted?
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#186337 - 29/10/2003 11:16
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Saddam was enough of a friend that Rumsfeld and co. were happy to sell him all sorts of nasty weapons.
So if that's true, then i guess we should have let him stay then. If he's such a good friend of the Bush administration, why do the liberals like him so much?
Have you seen any of the material about the effects of all that depleted uranium the US has vapourized all over Iraq and Afghanistan?
No, elaborate some.
Actually, no, I wouldn't kill them. I'd be pissed off at them, and if they were caught, I'd certainly press charges, but I wouldn't kill them. What are you... the mafia?
Ok, good. let's press charges against Osama Bin Laden. GWB will call 911 and in no time the global police will have a warrant for Osama's arrest and have him in cuffs. Good idea.
Does wiping out a couple nations bring back the victims from the dead?
It prevents it from happenning in the future.
And how was going to war with Iraq "justice", when not a single one of the perps was from, or was supported by Iraq? Shouldn't we have been going to war with Saudi Arabia?
That's typical liberal logic. All the liberals would still be whining their asses off if we went to war with Saudi Arabia instead. (unless of course Gore was president, then it would be the right thing to do.) Right now you'd be saying, "Look at Iraq, there is evidence that they are actually trying to build a nuke, they killed thousands of innocent people with toxic gas, and they openly support terrorism. Shouldn't we be invading Iraq instead?"
This is an ongoing war against all ragheads who hate the US. Countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are cooperating with the effort to find terrorists.
Ah, yes. What would Ghandi and Martin Luther King have been able to do if they didn't have their weapons at hand?
You're right, guns are bad and evil. Murder wasn't even a word before the gun was invented.
If it's worth killing them for then, then why the hell don't you get off your ass now, and try and prevent them from gaining that power to begin with?
Maybe I am? How the f uck would you know? Why don't you tell us what you're doing to accomplish this?
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#186338 - 29/10/2003 11:25
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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In reply to:
And try telling that to the survivors of the WTC that 3000 of our people being murdered is no big deal. If you're wife or your kid is murdered, hell that's only ONE person out of hundreds of millions. No big deal, right? So let it go?
I read several reports of victims' families saying just that. Does wiping out a couple nations bring back the victims from the dead?
If 3000 dead americans are no big deal, then why are you so worried about a few thousand dead Iraqi soldiers?
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#186339 - 29/10/2003 11:31
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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And how was going to war with Iraq "justice", when not a single one of the perps was from, or was supported by Iraq? Shouldn't we have been going to war with Saudi Arabia? Don't fret. It's coming. Just not under buddies Bush/Cheney. That's typical liberal logic. All the liberals would still be whining their asses off if we went to war with Saudi Arabia instead. (unless of course Gore was president, then it would be the right thing to do.) I'm both a liberal and a wuss, and I'll be cheering loudest when the war with House o' Saud starts.
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-- DLF
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#186340 - 29/10/2003 15:26
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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Ok, good. let's press charges against Osama Bin Laden. GWB will call 911 and in no time the global police will have a warrant for Osama's arrest and have him in cuffs. Good idea.
Gotta be better then wasting billions to drop bombs and wage war only to still not have him in custody.... Funny how people bash the liberals... Yet Republicans spend millions on proving a guy got a blowjob, yet turn a blind eye when their boy flushes billions down the toilet on finding weapons of mass destruction that don't exsist.
I'll admit I supported the war and bought the propaganda surrounding it all, but it's blatantly clear to me now that it's all about the oil. It sickens me that our fearless leader continues to use the threat of terror to fuel this war when it's really all about obtaining control of the resources in that area.
_________________________
Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#186341 - 29/10/2003 20:08
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Paul -- first of all, thank you for not descending into your sometimes troll-like behavior with your answer to my post. Some of your points are nicely put, even if I don't agree with them.
Saddam was our enemy, our allys' enemy, and an enemy of the Iraqi people. Getting rid of him is one step closer to a peaceful world.
I don't disagree with you for a minute that Saddam Hussein is/was not a very nice guy. But I don't care if you have indisputable proof that he fornicates with animals and eats babies for breakfast -- he was nonetheless the legitimate head of a sovereign nation, and until he initiates hostilities against us (or against an ally who then requests our support) we have no legal nor moral right to attack him.
like someone hitting your Ferrari with a golfclub ...[snip]...you're gonna kill the son of a bitch that did this
If you are really serious, you would kill someone for putting a dent in your car, then you have at the very least a serious anger management problem. I'm hoping you are speaking hyperbolically -- exaggerating for the sake of effect -- and would take action more appropriate to the severity of the offense. Saddam Hussein said bad things about us; I don't feel that justifies blowing up his whole damn country.
And try telling that to the survivors of the WTC that 3000 of our people being murdered is no big deal.
As I said earlier, on an individual, personal level it is indeed a tragedy. On a national level, as far as damage to the country as a whole (excepting the collateral damage imposed by Aschcroft and crew) it's not even a pinprick.
Maybe that's missing the point you were trying to make, but this IS a big deal, and we have to seek justice.
And your idea of justice is to blow up some country that had nothing to do with the attack?
there is one law that is the most important. And that is the 2nd article of the Bill of Rights
You are referring to this:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed
First of all, it is not a law -- it is an amendment to the U.S. Constitution..
Second of all, it never ceases to amaze me that people who quote the second amendment nearly always conveniently leave out the first 13 words. I have no problem with a "well regulated militia" being allowed to keep and bear whatever arms they desire. But I don't need wackos armed with AK-47's shooting up the neighborhood because somebody put a dent in their car!
No administration can enforce their laws on an angry mob of 100 million armed americans
You're living in a dream world if you believe that. There will be no "mob of 100 million armed americans", and even if you could get together a mob of, say, 10,000, the first F-16 dropping a pair of Hellfire bombs would be the end of that.
So I'm not afraid of the day the FBI starts arresting innocent people and the CIA starts suppressing free speech, because the rest of us will rise up
No, you won't. What "rest of us" are you talking about? A few nuts hiding in their bomb shelters up in the hills, armed to the teeth because "...the governments coming to take our guns away?" If it ever came to the point where an armed uprising of the general populace was the only solution, it would be too late. That's why the rest of us (i.e., the wusses) are working now to see that it never does come to that point.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#186342 - 30/10/2003 13:16
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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But I don't need wackos armed with AK-47's shooting up the neighborhood because somebody put a dent in their car! The problem being, of course, that "armed wackos" comprise today's "well-regulated militia." That's the tricky part. That's why the rest of us (i.e., the wusses) are working now to see that it never does come to that point. Well-put and here-here, from this wuss. (I love that word!)
_________________________
-- DLF
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#186343 - 04/11/2003 11:02
Re: What do you think of this behaviour?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Saddam was enough of a friend that Rumsfeld and co. were happy to sell him all sorts of nasty weapons. So if that's true, then i guess we should have let him stay then. If he's such a good friend of the Bush administration, why do the liberals like him so much? You confuse the disagreement of Bush and his policies with liking Saddam. The two are not the same. Jeez, even Bush's father was against this war -- do you consider him a liberal?
Have you seen any of the material about the effects of all that depleted uranium the US has vapourized all over Iraq and Afghanistan? No, elaborate some. Very well. Look here first. Make sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. That's mostly for shock value. For a little late night reading, there's a plethora of articles at the Depleted Uranium Education Project, and an extremely good feature series on the effects of DU here. Search on google for "depleted uranium", and spend several days reading.
Actually, no, I wouldn't kill them. I'd be pissed off at them, and if they were caught, I'd certainly press charges, but I wouldn't kill them. What are you... the mafia? Ok, good. let's press charges against Osama Bin Laden. GWB will call 911 and in no time the global police will have a warrant for Osama's arrest and have him in cuffs. Good idea. Your sarcasm is silly. Let's try a quick reply:
Ok, good. Let's go to war against Osama Bin Laden. GWB will bomb the hell out of two countries, and in no time, Osama will be dead. Good idea.
Does wiping out a couple nations bring back the victims from the dead? It prevents it from happenning in the future. How can you honestly believe that? Let's see... a bunch of terrorists blew up part of the US. To get revenge, the US blew up a country looking for the culprits, and blew a country that had nothing to do with it. So to get revenge, the country that had nothing to do with it... does what? Oh, that's right... fosters terrorism to get back at an otherwise invincible country. Do you have any idea why violence is a cycle? Why does Isreal bomb Palestine? Because Palestinians bomb Israel. Why do Palestinians bomb Israel? Because Israel bombs Palestine.
And how was going to war with Iraq "justice", when not a single one of the perps was from, or was supported by Iraq? Shouldn't we have been going to war with Saudi Arabia? That's typical liberal logic. What's typical liberal logic? To want to go after the guys that did it? Is that not the justice that you want? I honestly can't comprehend why you suggest it's a bad thing to want to get the guys responsible. All the liberals would still be whining their asses off if we went to war with Saudi Arabia instead. I suspect that the people whining then would be those that oppose any war. There are a whole lot of people that don't support this Iraq war because it was based on lies by the US administration. Right now you'd be saying, "Look at Iraq, there is evidence that they are actually trying to build a nuke, they killed thousands of innocent people with toxic gas, and they openly support terrorism. Shouldn't we be invading Iraq instead?" Again, no, I wouldn't. Consider the situation we're in with Iraq and North Korea. North Korea is actually trying to build a nuke, have killed thousands of innocent people, and openly support terrorism. Yet I don't know a single person who would say we should have invaded them, instead of Iraq (I know of lots of people who would say we should invade both Iraq and them, though).
Countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are cooperating with the effort to find terrorists. Are you kidding? Saudi Arabia helped fund the terrorists. And Bush and co., by sheltering their Saudi connections, are, for all intents and purposes, aiding and abetting them.
Ah, yes. What would Ghandi and Martin Luther King have been able to do if they didn't have their weapons at hand? You're right, guns are bad and evil. Murder wasn't even a word before the gun was invented. Umm... hold on, I never said a thing about guns being bad or evil. Heck, I like guns, and I like shooting them. I learned how to shoot guns in church camp. Your intimation was that people would be unable to bring about change without the use of weapons. You said: Once we become disarmed, we are utterly defenseless and powerless. That is a ridiculous notion, easily disproven by the two examples I gave. For a counter-example to the corollary, that to be armed is to be have power and defense, how well did the armed Kurds do against Saddam? Not very. They were armed, yet still defenseless and powerless. How about the Waco thing? Whoops. That didn't work out so well, either.
Oh, and allow me to disabuse you of the notion that I'm a liberal; I'm not. I think for myself, and do my best to form my opinions after looking at a variety of viewpoints.
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