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#190915 - 26/11/2003 09:49 WinXP Disaster non-Recovery
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14482
Loc: Canada
A sad tale of a laptop drive gone bad, and misplaced trust in WinXP.

This person had backups of stuff, but a lot of good that does when the OS and 30 apps and zillions of plugins and patches all have to be reinstalled from scratch.

Not a dumb newbie, but rather a highly technical individual with an IQ to match.

Read and weep:

As a few of you know, the hard drive on my machine recently became
flaky. Sadly, although one of the bad sectors was in files I didn't care
about, the other was somewhere critical (probably my boot sector), and
my machine crashed and burned. The people at Dell had me do various
unhelpful things, until they had me do a diagnostic, which showed
unrecoverable errors on the drive. Not a problem they said, they'd ship
me a new drive. Which, to their credit, they did promptly.

When I went to recover my machine from my backup (my most recent
backup), I discovered to my shock and horror that XP would not even look
at my external hard drive. And it insisted on formatting the internal
drive, without fail, before attempting a restore from backup. It would
have accepted a CD, provided that I could fit my entire system with
files, onto just 1 CD. (My Microsoft S/W alone, without user data, is
over 2Gig.) It would not look at my DVD drive. It would have accepted
multiple floppies. Only... quick calculations show that I would have
needed perhaps 60,000 floppies to back my machine up. Since about 1 in
10,000 can be expected to fail, even with the truck-load, I would never
have been able to restore successfully.

It was a complete shock to me, that I could be so suckered by the backup
system. (Yes, I had tested that I could do a restore shortly after I got
my system, but that was from a working system, to a working system, with
_the same H/W_.)

Mark Lord (Real-Time Remedies) was wonderful. He wrote me a driver,
sucked all the recoverable data off my sick drive, & gave me a copy of
Knoppix (CD Linux) to boot my system with.

One of my first priorities, was to try to figure out how to successfully
do not just backups, but also _restores_! I rather wanted to have a
strategy in place, before invested gobs of time restoring my data. This
has certainly been a learning experience for me, and some of you, may
want to learn from my experience, rather than learning it for yourself.

I can successfully block copy (byte copy) an image of my XP system onto
an external drive. I can even restore it, but only onto the same drive.
Attempts to restore it to another drive, trigger XP's copy protection.
XP runs a checksum on the serial numbers of over a dozen bits of H/W on
your system. (eg. harddrive, CPU, video card, any number of things you
might want to eventually upgrade, or might break from moving parts.) If
you change any of those parts, it insists that you re-install _all_ your
S/W, and rebuild your system from scratch.

I searched the web & all the XP reference manuals Chapters had for sale
(in 2 locations, different selections), for any clue of how to restore a
system when all you have is an image of the flat files system. (My old
drive just wouldn't even get up far enough to run any repairs, and ...
copying files off it with an NTFS resusitator was finding more & more
hard errors, each separate time it was run. I didn't have a hope of
getting a system up long enough to create another backup. I did have a
flat image of the system stored on an external drive.) I found a nice
hack to swap versions of Windows on the same machine, but... it
contained no instructions on how to reset the H/W checksums, & simply
noted that if your hard drive crashed, you had big problems, would have
to replace your disk. Many of the manuals noted that the Home version (I
have Pro) of XP doesn't even default to loading the backup S/W; this was
attributed to Microsofts perception that home users won't care if they
have to rebuild their system. All the sources noted that the built-in
backup would not back up your S/W, that you'd have to re-install all
that. (And re-configure it too.)

Note that none of this is a bug: Microsoft's licence specifically states
that you are permitted one and only one backup copy of it's S/W, and
that if you have installation CDs, then those are your backup.

Having concluded that there was no way of fully restoring the OS, S/W
and all, I decided to try to focus on how to recover my userids and all
of the setting they have. (I was figuring that for future restores, I
could at least do that, off a backup.) Although it did initially appear
that I might be able (with serious poking and prodding) to create new
userids with the same names as my old ones, and swap out the files from
underneath them, some things didn't quite work right. Then I discovered
that Microsoft inserts into some of it's files, nice little directives
indicating that portions of the files should be deleted on copy. And
sure enough, entire chunks of files will disappear, if they are copied.

Which is when I threw in the towel.

Note that large corporations, can get a different type of licence, which
allows them to create standard images and distribute those, S/W & all to
their machines. Which would be why Microsoft doesn't have to care about
restore complaints from corporate customers.

But for ordinary people, trying to use a machine either at home or at a
small business, there's no hope. I observe that any small business that
went through what I just went through, would be lucky to survive
financially.

The bottom line, is that there is no way to reliably back up your XP
system, to guard against H/W failure. It is just a matter of time,
before some component (eg. hard drive) fails. Since most of the power of
XP comes from the customizations you can do, you're forced to choose
between alotting time & resources to do all of the reconfiguring over
again, preiodically, as things break or need replacing. Or avoid using
the full power of XP. Which promptly begs the question, "Why are you
using that operating system?"

All I can do at this point, is share this experience as far and as
widely as possible, and hope that others avoid the mistake of investing
anything at all, into an XP system.

Please spread the word.

(Yes, I'm looking into migrating to Linux).

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#190916 - 26/11/2003 11:42 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: mlord]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31571
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, agreed.

For what it's worth, even before XP and its copy protection came around, I've never depended upon the concept of backing up the OS. I've always assumed, in the event of a hardware failure, that I'd have to reinstall the OS/apps/patches from scratch and just restore data/work files.

But yeah, this guy's situation sucks and I think it's terrible that Microsoft's own copy protection is what's preventing him from doing proper disaster recovery.

I hate XP.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#190917 - 26/11/2003 19:39 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: tfabris]
tracerbullet
addict

Registered: 08/01/2002
Posts: 419
Loc: Minnesota
Exactly all I've ever been able to come up with as well, format c:, reinstall barebones windows, then restore the giant backup file. Adds another 1/2 hr to 45 minutes, but is better than some of the alternatives.

I just hate MS for any of a variety or even no particular reason.

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#190918 - 26/11/2003 20:00 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: tfabris]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
One good thing about having to reinstall Windows and your apps is that you end up removing the accumulated crud. No matter what you do somehow Windows gets bit rot from installing so many applications and then upgrading etc...

It shouldn't complain if you've changed the HD so long as you haven't gone over the maximum number of hardware changes since you originally installed. Annoying anyway, I'm curious as to whether it actually stops piracy.

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#190919 - 26/11/2003 20:54 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: mlord]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Interesting story. I run a corporate copy of XP so I don't have any issues at all with regards to hardware changes nor activation. I will take your word for how savy this person is, but if they were relying on XP alone to backup and safeguard their data they certainly weren't being prepared. Running Mac OS X one would also have to start from scratch. This part however I found a little extreme: The bottom line, is that there is no way to reliably back up your XP system, to guard against H/W failure. That's just false. Completely untrue. There are probably more than a dozen ways to back up your data as well as your entire boot partition, excluding tools built into XP. From imaging applications (that can be used with any version of Windows XP) to file-based backup solutions to redundant disk configurations. Hey, I've never seen a Windows system completely lost because of a simple program crash... But last month one of my friends had a kernel panic in Mac OS X (10.3, Panther) and discovered he had lost more than half of the boot partition after restarting. Just gone. Poof. Obviously the system wouldn't boot - he discovered the severity after booting with another drive and then looking at the first. In any case, I believe that no matter what OS you're running, there are tools available that can do the job properly, even if they don't come bundled with the OS itself. Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#190920 - 26/11/2003 23:02 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: hybrid8]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14482
Loc: Canada
> The bottom line, is that there is no way to reliably back up your XP system, to guard against H/W failure.

But no, we have a complete image of the drive in question, it's just that the original drive cannot be used, so we have to place the image onto a new physical drive of identical specs. XP copy protection refuses to boot from the new drive. Dead in the water. Time to reinstall.

Sure, the image has EVERYTHING, but doesn't help to avoid the days of reinstalling and repatching and reconfiguring EVERYTHING..

or does it?

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#190921 - 26/11/2003 23:24 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: mlord]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Sorry, but I have to agree with Bruno. It is obviously possible to reliably back up an XP system. You've just admitted to having a disk containing such a backup.

Reliably restoring an XP system however...
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#190922 - 26/11/2003 23:26 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: mlord]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
If they state you're allowed one backup copy, call tech support and tell them that to make keeping a hard drive copy legal you burned the CDs, and now you'd like to exercise the rights their license grants you... and ask how.

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#190923 - 27/11/2003 00:58 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: mlord]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
But no, we have a complete image of the drive in question, it's just that the original drive cannot be used, so we have to place the image onto a new physical drive of identical specs. XP copy protection refuses to boot from the new drive. Dead in the water. Time to reinstall.

Refuses to boot how? Simply putting the files there isn't good enough, just like slapping a /boot partition somewhere isn't enough to boot Linux. Restore the files, then run the XP CD in repair mode, and tell it to repair the boot sector.

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#190924 - 27/11/2003 01:39 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: drakino]
Anonymous
Unregistered


fuck it, just buy a new computer.

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#190925 - 27/11/2003 01:59 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: drakino]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Mark isn't simply "putting the files there", he has copied an exact image of one drive onto another drive of identical spec. This would be enough to boot Linux or just about any other OS (assuming all the partitions the OS is looking for are on the one disk).

If Mark has done things properly (which given he is the IDE God I am sure he has) then the only difference is that the serial number of the physical hard drive has changed.

I can't believe that not being able to boot XP in this situation is Microsoft's intended behaviour. I think Mark has run into a nasty bug or design flaw. Not that the distinction makes much difference to him at the moment...
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#190926 - 27/11/2003 03:00 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: andy]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Exact images still might not include the master boot record and such. In linux, dd if=/dev/hda1 is not going to grab the MBR, but /dev/hda would. I don't doubt Mark's skills (including his non technical ones like cooking ), just trying to make sure he didn't overlook something simple.

The reason I have a feeling something fixable is going on is because I have never seen XP act like this with the activation. It always tries to kick into a mode where you can call Microsoft if the protection is being tripped. And to add to my doubt, I have changed more hardware then just a hard drive, and not run into XP protection.

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#190927 - 27/11/2003 03:07 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: drakino]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Back in Mark's first post we had:

"Attempts to restore it to another drive, trigger XP's copy protection.
XP runs a checksum on the serial numbers of over a dozen bits of H/W on
your system. (eg. harddrive, CPU, video card, any number of things you
might want to eventually upgrade, or might break from moving parts.)"

So it is clearly not an MBR problem or anything like that.

Like you I am puzzled by the problem that Mark's friend faced.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#190928 - 27/11/2003 03:13 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: andy]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
If it triggered the true XP protection, it would have had a toll free number (for multiple countries), along with a code to read off to the rep who answers. Once a sufficient explaination is given to them, they then read back another code that reactivates XP.

This works the same for Windows XP and Office XP/2003.

Mark, can you comment on exactly what is making you think the copy protection is being triggered, and not some other glitch?

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#190929 - 27/11/2003 06:13 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: andy]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
If its the volume serial number of the drive that is causing the problem, there is a utility which will allow you to change the volume serial number (volumeid.exe). I've used it in the past when creating image drives on w2000.

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#190930 - 27/11/2003 06:20 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: Mach]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I meant the serial id of the physical disk, not the volume id on the partitions. If the disk has been cloned with dd under Linux (which given Mark is involved is probably the case) then the partitions on the drive will be identical in every way.

The serial number of the physical drive will be different, I believe WinXP uses this as one of the variables that go into its activation hash.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#190931 - 27/11/2003 07:54 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: drakino]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14482
Loc: Canada
The difficulty here is that the disk image is still in a slightly inconsistent shape, and requires something akin to CHKDSK to be run on it. But the WinXP copy protection would not let us get that far, and it is impossible to call and update the security codes (or whatever they're called) until after CHKDSK.

Checkmate.

Anyway, this is all now history, as I kicked my buddy and his tainted software off the premises long ago -- we don't allow that kind of stuff around here for long! :;

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#190932 - 27/11/2003 07:55 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: drakino]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14482
Loc: Canada
Win XP refused to run in "repair mode" until the "illegal software copy" issue was resolved. But of course that issue couldn't be resolved until the system was able to boot and repair the disk..

Which came first, the chicken or tne overly-agressive monopolist?

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#190933 - 27/11/2003 07:56 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: Daria]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14482
Loc: Canada
>tell them that to make keeping a hard drive copy legal you burned the CDs

In this case, that would actually be true (burned, as in "flames").

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#190934 - 27/11/2003 11:36 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: mlord]
tracerbullet
addict

Registered: 08/01/2002
Posts: 419
Loc: Minnesota
Ahh, I finally "get it" now. Old versions of XP didn't go that far, it seems only those with "SP1 built in" act that way. I was able to make a ghost image of my old hard drive, replace it with a bigger one, install a barebones version of XP and Norton, and then copy the entire image back over. Worked great. But - clearly a different version of XP.

Anyhow, as you said, over and done with. Glad to know that info, I'm sure any next versions of Windows I use ("IF") will act the way he described.

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#190935 - 28/11/2003 08:54 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: tracerbullet]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I'll be using PowerQuest's Drive Copy later today to move my copy my WinXP master drive to a new, larger drive. 2 partition, 1 boot and 1 apps from a 60GB drive (split 6/54 or so) to a new 160GB drive. I'll update the thread when I'm done or when I quit from frustration.

The instructions for Drive Copy don't mention anything about XP SP1 problems. I have SP1 installed, but my XP CD is the first version, corporate copy.

Drive Copy, like I am using it above, can be used as a back-up tool. You just set aside the new "cloned" HD. PowerQuest also has a Drive Image program that is expressly for backup purposes, rather than prmarily for disk migration purposes like Drive Copy.

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#190936 - 29/11/2003 02:57 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: mlord]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31571
Loc: Seattle, WA
Which came first, the chicken or the overly-agressive monopolist?
Heh, good one.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#190937 - 29/11/2003 08:42 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: hybrid8]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
I'll update the thread when I'm done or when I quit from frustration.

I use Ghost on identical drives and make a mirrored copy every week. Never needed to use it but let me know how your image copy works and if it will boot.

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#190938 - 29/11/2003 18:51 Re: WinXP Disaster non-Recovery [Re: blitz]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Argh. I'll have to update this thread again later. My trusty Drive Copy works wonderfully, but not for Windows XP. Now I'll need Drive Image 7 for the job. Or go with software from someone else. The fast alterntive's I've located are Ghost from Norton or MigrateEasy from Acronis (their stuff looks good so I might go this route).

On another note, I'm finally setting up the new Shuttle system I've been meaning to build for the past 8 months. WinXP and Ultra160 SCSI (Seagate Cheetah 18GB boot drive) in a floppy-less Shuttle box. 2.66GHz with 512MB of RAM. First installation went very smooth. Now I'm doing a second installation because I had forgotten the first time around how to get the installer to put Windows into a custom folder (I always like having a different system folder - this one will be "WXP")

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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