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#239582 - 31/10/2004 17:38 Fantasia Canadienne
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Cut me a little slack on this. Don't get too literal....but give us your opinion:

If the social/political situatiuon in the USA is not very happy, why don't we just chuck it and be "Just like Canada" (TM)?

So, consider that you wake up tomorrow and the USA has become "Just like Canada" (TM). What are the upsides? What are the downsides?

Canadians, furriners, feel free to chime in.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#239583 - 31/10/2004 19:36 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: jimhogan]
ineedcolor
addict

Registered: 10/01/2001
Posts: 630
Loc: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Here's what happens:

Higher taxes, Government arrogance and malaise, a military that might be able to fend off an assault from Luxembourg, and one nice two-lane highway from coast to coast...however, it is safer to live here, what with that billion-dollar gun registry thingy...

edit: My observation about the gun registry was tongue-in-cheek, Canada is not any safer today even though a whole lot of money was spent to force law-abiding people to register their guns...


Edited by ineedcolor (31/10/2004 22:47)
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#239584 - 31/10/2004 20:12 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: jimhogan]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Upside:
  • winning the World Cup in hockey, and the "World" part of World Cup includes more than two countries
  • Baseball is no longer the national sport.
  • we're not ruled by fear -- we actually do leave our doors unlocked
  • we're allowed to use p2p for song swapping
  • real news and unbiased sports coverage during things like the olympics.
  • no in-your-face patriotism, barring a few special events
  • you can tell how much money you have in your wallet without pulling it all out to check the numbers.
  • les jeune filles des Quebec!
  • we can go to Cuba for vacation

Downside (mostly for Canada):
  • As if Quebec wasn't enough, we now have to listen to Alaska and Hawaii bitch and moan about seperating
  • We thought we'd finally gotten rid of Celine Dione, and Bryan Adams.

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#239585 - 31/10/2004 20:24 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: ineedcolor]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Here's what happens:

Higher taxes,

Aye, but as a Canuck living in the US, it all evens out, not having to pay for stuff like health insurance after taxes.

Quote:
Government arrogance

Hah! That's rich. I'd rather deal with Canadian government arrogance than the current US government arrogance. At least the arrogance would have been toned down.

Quote:
and malaise

Most governments have this, so I'd consider this a no-op.

Quote:
a military that might be able to fend off an assault from Luxembourg,

Canadians are polite. We don't piss people off, and they don't attack us. Works out quite well, really. No need to spend vast amounts of money on a military, when simple diplomacy is sufficient to achieve the same end. In the mean time, we get to use that money for other things, like, say, education and health care.

Quote:
and one nice two-lane highway from coast to coast...

Heh. Actually much of it is four lanes, though the bits through the mountains in BC/Alberta are still two lanes, I believe.

Quote:
however, it is safer to live here, what with that billion-dollar gun registry thingy...

I'm not impressed with the registry, but then, I grew up in Alberta, and learned to shoot at church camp. It's not the registry that makes things safe, so much as the lack of hand guns. But again, see above about politeness.

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#239586 - 31/10/2004 20:36 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: canuckInOR]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
Heh. Actually much of it is four lanes, though the bits through the mountains in BC/Alberta are still two lanes, I believe.


Apparently even quite close to Vancouver; The area can have either money to upgrade the highway through (Kicking Horse Pass, maybe?) or to build the RAV (Richmond-Airport-Vancouver, I think) transit line, and they're trying to figure out which would suck more to not have.

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#239587 - 31/10/2004 20:51 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: canuckInOR]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
We thought we'd finally gotten rid of Celine Dione, and Bryan Adams.
Do we get Rush then?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#239588 - 31/10/2004 21:37 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: canuckInOR]
ineedcolor
addict

Registered: 10/01/2001
Posts: 630
Loc: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Quote:
Heh. Actually much of it is four lanes, though the bits through the mountains in BC/Alberta are still two lanes, I believe.


Actually, I'm suprised you would state this fact given that you are not living in Canada right now...I was stationed in Victoria BC for three years and regularly drove from the West coast to Ontario and then on to Nova Scotia to visit family during my leave. Aside from the 401 in Southern Ontario/highway 20 in Quebec, the bulk of the Trans Canada highway is still two lanes. There is a short section of twinned highway in mainland BC from Vancouver to Hope (remember the first Rambo movie?), a little bit outside of Calgary and Edmonton, about 100 km in Saskatchewan joining Regina to Saskatoon, a 200 km stretch either side of Winnipeg and about 150 km from Moncton, New Brunswick to the Nova Scotia border with a little beyond there...I've driven it all. Considering that one-way coast to coast is roughly 7,500 Km or so, the majority of it is still two stinkin' lanes...and following 18 wheelers, combines and campers/motorhomes in the summer, it's one hell of a bummer to drive.

I also don't agree with your opinion about the military. In my opinion, being the nice guy and diplomacy doesn't always garner any immediate favours to someone when the sh*t hits the fan. Remember how unprepared both Canada and the US were at the beginning of both world wars...

I spent 14 months of my military career on peacemaking ops (Yugoslavia). Had we not been armed to the teeth and trained for combat, we would have suffered the same fate as the people we were sent in to protect soon after we arrived in theatre. During my first tour (Croatia '92-'93) we were shot at and mortored daily, had two APCs hit by anti-tank rockets and lost four APCs to land mines...Both sides in the conflict tested our resolve to act and to enforce the peace. Again, had we not been a strong force and not willing to be pushed around, we would have simply been brushed aside and large scale conflict would have resumed.

I believe that we in Canada enjoy our current autonomy in part thanks to big brother next door and the fact that we have a reputation as having highly-trained professional soldiers. It's just really too bad that recent successive Governments have allowed our forces to atrophy and decay away to the point where if something were to occur on our soil, we couldn't do anything about it.

Canada's reputation as a semi-power is diminishing daily because of this exact "we're nice people, don't worry, it will never happen to us " mindset...

I digress, however I do understand that it is difficult to appreciate something if you have not lived it.
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#239589 - 01/11/2004 08:41 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: jimhogan]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
Finger Eleven!

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#239590 - 01/11/2004 12:20 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: jimhogan]
boxer
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
You get a Queen thrown in for free!
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Politics and Ideology: Not my bag

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#239591 - 02/11/2004 05:45 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: JeffS]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Quote:
We thought we'd finally gotten rid of Celine Dione, and Bryan Adams.
Do we get Rush then?

Sure, you can have Rush. I know it's heretical to say so here, but I've never been too fond of 'em.

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#239592 - 02/11/2004 06:51 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: ineedcolor]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Quote:
Heh. Actually much of it is four lanes, though the bits through the mountains in BC/Alberta are still two lanes, I believe.

Actually, I'm suprised you would state this fact given that you are not living in Canada right now... I was stationed in Victoria BC for three years and regularly drove from the West coast to Ontario and then on to Nova Scotia to visit family during my leave. Aside from the 401 in Southern Ontario/highway 20 in Quebec, the bulk of the Trans Canada highway is still two lanes.


I stated said fact based on my recollection of a road trip made several years ago. Seems my recollection isn't nearly as strong or correct as it ought to be.

Thank you for clarifying.

Quote:
I also don't agree with your opinion about the military. In my opinion, being the nice guy and diplomacy doesn't always garner any immediate favours to someone when the sh*t hits the fan.

My thinking on those lines is based somewhat on the legendary neutrality of the Swiss, plus my experience travelling in Costa Rica, another country without an army. Of course, my historical knowledge of both places is likely as lacking as my recollection of the Canadian highway system.

Quote:
Remember how unprepared both Canada and the US were at the beginning of both world wars...

True enough, but, I don't know enough of the history to say that the lack of preparation was a significant obstacle, particularly since (with the exception of Pearl Harbour), neither country was attacked.

Quote:
I spent 14 months of my military career on peacemaking ops (Yugoslavia).

In case you don't hear it enough, thank you.

I think this is really the crux of what I think the military should be for -- peacekeeping/making duties, and defense of the homeland. While we obviously want a highly trained and well-equipped military for that, I don't think that we need a gargantuan military. As we've seen, a large military isn't necessarily sufficient to stop a surprise attack.

Quote:
I believe that we in Canada enjoy our current autonomy in part thanks to big brother next door and the fact that we have a reputation as having highly-trained professional soldiers.

I totally agree with this. But then, why is the US an ally, rather than an enemy? I mean... we burned down their White House, remember? Because we play nice. Ultimately, I think that a large part of our autonomy is due to that, as well. Our reputation for peacekeeping is a combination of our kick-ass soldiers *and* the fact that we're a fairly neutral country more prone to diplomacy than to just shooting stuff up. It's about respect, as opposed to the ability to wield massive amounts of firepower.

Quote:
It's just really too bad that recent successive Governments have allowed our forces to atrophy and decay away to the point where if something were to occur on our soil, we couldn't do anything about it.

I'll agree that the level of upkeep provided our troops is rather appalling. I think we probably could be spending a bit more on our military, but I certainly don't think it needs to be proportionate to the way the US bleeds money on their military, which is what I was thinking when I wrote that we don't need to spend vast amounts. The US spends more money on their military than all of it's allies plus Russia, plus China, plus the axis of evil, combined. Quite frankly, it's stupid.

Quote:
Canada's reputation as a semi-power is diminishing daily because of this exact "we're nice people, don't worry, it will never happen to us " mindset...

I most certainly don't advocate a "it will never happen to us" mindset. I just believe that the first line of defence should be built on diplomacy and respect, rather than "fear my wrath". The latter only works for a little while, as the US has currently shown by the Iraq fiasco.

Quote:
I digress, however I do understand that it is difficult to appreciate something if you have not lived it.

Most certainly. I pondered a stint in the military, but eventually I realized that I'm not much of one for following (or giving) orders.

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#239593 - 10/11/2004 01:35 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: canuckInOR]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
I didn't want to let this thread sink to the bottom without saying that I appreciated reading the answers of some Real Canadians (do you have "real" Canadians there or the US unique in having real and unreal citizens?)

ineedcolor:
Quote:
I spent 14 months of my military career on peacemaking ops (Yugoslavia).

Why, I never would have guessed this from your avatar or demeanor! Quite interesting to read about that, and my hat's off to you.

canuckinLA:
Quote:
I most certainly don't advocate a "it will never happen to us" mindset. I just believe that the first line of defence should be built on diplomacy and respect, rather than "fear my wrath". The latter only works for a little while, as the US has currently shown by the Iraq fiasco.

I cast my vote in agreement. I am afraid that the whole "fear my wrath" approach may only prove out to work inside our border. Externally, if we can't somehow extricate ourselves from this mess (and I am not optimistic) I think we are in for a very big wrathfest.

It *is* interesting to contemplate how the "overall" Canadian political and military stance might have evolved without a nuclear-tipped neighbor patrolling beneath the waves, but that's the alternate history that I'm no good at.

When I started this thread, I started looking up stats on average household size, average household income and other bits to make some comparisons. I was struck by a headline a few weeks back about how "Bush looks north for flu vaccine" and the irony of the Republican's historical criticism of Canada's bureaucratic, state-run, soshulistic health care.

I'd like to construct a comparison of the cost to that "average" family of the cost of a major no-fault illness, say appendicitis/appendectomy or having one's pelvic crushed by a runaway hay wagon. I don't think the "average" US family -- including a pretty fair number of uninsured Red State Republicans -- would fare too well. But, hey, Freedom, right?
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#239594 - 11/11/2004 04:21 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: jimhogan]
ineedcolor
addict

Registered: 10/01/2001
Posts: 630
Loc: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Quote:
Why, I never would have guessed this from your avatar or demeanor! Quite interesting to read about that, and my hat's off to you.

Thank you Jim, I appreciate that

And it may be no big secret about the basis for my nickname, I'll show you a picture of my fiance so you can make the connection...




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#239595 - 11/11/2004 04:28 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: ineedcolor]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
And it may be no big secret about the basis for my nickname,

I am stupefying incurious about some things, but I did wonder...a little!

Quote:
I'll show you a picture of my fiance

Ah, beautiful. Congratulations!
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#239596 - 11/11/2004 22:55 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: jimhogan]
lastdan
enthusiast

Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
Quote:
Ah, beautiful. Congratulations!


I'll second that.

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#239597 - 11/11/2004 23:34 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: ineedcolor]
Happy Birthday Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
Quote:
I'll show you a picture of my fiance


I'd hit it!
_________________________
Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#239598 - 12/11/2004 03:11 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: Heather]
ineedcolor
addict

Registered: 10/01/2001
Posts: 630
Loc: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Heather: Clarify please?
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#239599 - 12/11/2004 04:58 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: ineedcolor]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
'id hit it' = 'id bone your fiancee'
note the tongue man

she (Heather) is saying that she (your fiancee) is pretty

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#239600 - 12/11/2004 05:02 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: RobotCaleb]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
also, for future reference :

fiance and fiancee are two similar words with different meanings.
fiance is a man that a woman is going to marry
fiancee is a woman that a man is going to marry

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#239601 - 12/11/2004 05:09 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: ineedcolor]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I'm in Canada, and *I* got it. I guess you don't want as much US/Hollywood content as some of us... Hehe.

US customs wanted my picture and finger prints, but they let me into the country without a problem. Canada doesn't care about my ID (which was good last year), the fact that I've been here for 28 of my 32 years & own property here (including cars and a house), collects more than 50% of my earnings (in taxes), and didn't want to let me back in the country because they thought I hadn't given them another $50 last year!*

*to get what's called a "Permanent Resident's Card" which they say I *must* have to show at the border when traveling by commercial carrier. So all my other ID (with and without picture and credit cards, etc), passport, record of landing, proof of employment at major tech company for 8 years, etc.. mean nothing. Never mind that someone else, that is NOT a resident, traveling with the same passport can get in without any problem whatsoever and don't even require so much as a visitor's permit or visa. Funny thing is that I jumped through most of their hoops, had my picture taken, paid the $50 and all. I just haven't received the ccard because they expect me to go to downtown Toronto to pick it up in person - they won't even have it for me at an office closer to home. That means taking at least half a day off work and having to put up with really crappy traffic, having to park the car god-knows where, having to stand around in line and then having to deal with someone behind a counter that treats the majority of their visitors like they're less important than an amoeba, but at the same time important enough to hold some type of grudge against.

And to think... I've just sent them $200 to become a citizen. What a joke. My opinion of this country has been wavering for a few years. but what to do? I don't have the money to move to a "paradise" country where the government is more corrupt but can be bought...

Bruno
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#239602 - 12/11/2004 05:19 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: RobotCaleb]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
she (Heather) is saying that she (your fiancee) is pretty


Naaahh... she isn't pretty.

Over-the-top stunning gorgeous, perhaps...

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#239603 - 12/11/2004 05:51 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: hybrid8]
ineedcolor
addict

Registered: 10/01/2001
Posts: 630
Loc: Windsor, Ontario Canada
Thanks for the compliments all and I'm embarrassed that I didn't know quite what Heather was trying to say....lol

Bruno: whomever gave you the run around about not having a PR card was being a knob...even though there is legislation in place that will mandate the use of the card to fly as it's use continues to proliferate, it is not by any means the only method of gaining legal entry to Canada, your record of landing is still just as valid today even though they (the IMM 1000 forms) are not being issued anymore.
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#239604 - 12/11/2004 12:07 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: ineedcolor]
Happy Birthday Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
Quote:
I'm embarrassed that I didn't know quite what Heather was trying to say....lol


You're fiancee is hot enough to make me wish I played for the other team. Simple. (How come they make so few men that look that good?)
_________________________
Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#239605 - 12/11/2004 13:29 Re: Fantasia Canadienne [Re: Heather]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
You're fiancee is hot enough to make me wish I played for the other team. Simple. (How come they make so few men that look that good?)


They do. They're gay.

That said, I've always been amused by that particular usage of the word "wish"....
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Dave

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