#251328 - 08/03/2005 14:36
Debt
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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The Royal Bank of Bush is running into difficulties. This will affect us all. 
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#251329 - 08/03/2005 15:31
Re: Debt
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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While I'm no economist, this certainly does worry me, and the big question is exactly how problems might manifest themselves. Are we talking about massive inflation? That would imply that it makes sense to own land, but it's a bad idea to hold cash or other things that can easily loose their value like government bonds. Stocks of U.S. companies are harder to analyze, particularly when the big ones tend to be multinationals who are (hopefully) smart about hedging currency risks. The biggest wild card of all is the U.S. / China relationship. We've outsourced all kind of manufacturing to China, and it comes back in the form of cheap goods at Wal-Mart. More interestingly, the Chinese yuan is tied to the U.S. dollar, meaning that they're (currently) sinking along with us. If the Chinese unhooked their currency from the dollar, then the price of Chinese goods, in US dollars, could increase, which would throw everything about outsourcing out of whack.
Personally, I've been slowly increasing the diversity of my retirement portfolio. I'm planning to double the "international" portion of my holdings by the end of the year.
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#251330 - 08/03/2005 15:41
Re: Debt
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Yeah it is, and has been for quite a while. That the article seem to lay this at Bush's feet is disappointing, as this has been going on for quite a while from all parties. Admittedly Bush has made the problem worse, but this administration is merely the next step in what has been a worsening problem.
I'm afraid it is the nature of our nation to decide the things we can't live without and then buy them whether we can afford them or not. And everyone wants to cut everyone elses programs, but is unwilling to sacrifice their own.
Should we have cut taxes? Probably not. But I think if the Democrats had been in power they'd have likely spent the money somewhere else other than tax breaks- I doubt they would have made any serious dent in our downward spiral of debt. We just don't know how to not spend more money than we have.
It doesn't matter how good the cause is, if we end up running ourselves into the ground then we're all gonna suffer. Such is the fate of democracy, though, right? We can just keep voting ourselves more credit until the whole thing collapses.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#251331 - 08/03/2005 15:46
Re: Debt
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I won't disagree with all of what you said by any means, but I don't think that this would have happened without Bush: Quote:
Between 2001 and 2004, the annual budget for the Pentagon and domestic security rose by US$87.1 billion, an increase of 27.5 per cent in four years. In the process, a budget that had a surplus of US$128 billion in 2001 crumbled into a deficit of US$412 billion last year -- the biggest annual shortfall in United States history.
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Bitt Faulk
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#251332 - 08/03/2005 16:48
Re: Debt
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
Probably not. But I think if the Democrats had been in power they'd have likely spent the money somewhere else other than tax breaks- I doubt they would have made any serious dent in our downward spiral of debt.
The tax breaks weren't a matter of spending money, they were a matter of borrowing the money to pay for the tax breaks.
The Bush "budget" is a joke. He presents his budget every year without including his biggest project, Iraq. This year, he failed to include any money for overhauling social security, his biggest domestic pet project. He then goes on include income from drilling in the artic national wildlife refuge, a propsal which has been shot down every year by a congress controlled by his own party. His budget director defended the ANWR drilling income by saying: 'the budget is the right place to present the entirety of the president's policies, so all of his proposals are reflected in there.' The absurdity of that comment is priceless, really.
Clinton, love him or hate him, balanced the budget. They may have been richer times, but it wasn't something trivial to do. I remember my mother being home from work because the federal government was shut down because Clinton wasn't signing an unbalanced budget.
I grew up being told that those big spending democrats would be the death of the country. The truth of the matter seems to be that the problem is not that the democrats want to spend more money, but that they want to spend it on social programs instead of the worlds largest standing army.
Matthew
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#251333 - 08/03/2005 17:10
Re: Debt
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
I grew up being told that those big spending democrats would be the death of the country.
Yeah, that's the party line, but it isn't true. I remember my mother telling me that if Bush won the first election we'd go deeper into debt. "It's just what Republican's do", she said, and it's true (She usually votes Republican, BTW, so this wasn't a partisan remark).
I think both parties like to spend money we don't have, and it's true one focuses on social programs and the other the military, both which I think are important to the welfare of our country. The difference is that at least Democrats are generally more honest about it. Being a pretty conservative guy, this is an aspect of the Republican party that drives me nuts.
Almost enough to make me want to elect a Libertarian . . .
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#251334 - 08/03/2005 17:17
Re: Debt
[Re: JeffS]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Almost enough to make me want to elect a Libertarian . . .
Whose stance I find I lean more and more towards each day.
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#251335 - 08/03/2005 18:08
Re: Debt
[Re: schofiel]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Quote:
The Royal Bank of Bush is running into difficulties
With the extraordinary profligacy of the EEC, I'd be surprised if we're in a much better state, this side of the pond.
To appease the French, the European parliament is moved from Brussels to Strasbourg each month.: Files are taken by a gleaming fleet of lorries, kept for that purpose; MEP's are entitled to living and travel expenses between, and at, both sites and the cost of the buildings to house all of this makes the senses reel.
I describe a very small, if I can mix my metaphores, tip of the iceberg in an obscene gravy train at most European's expense.
And that extraordinarily vacuous Mr.Blair, who will not be remembered for much except his chicanory, wants me to vote for its constitution!
I think not: Brits., put your X where Boxer puts his!
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#251336 - 08/03/2005 18:14
Re: Debt
[Re: boxer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
put your X where Boxer puts his!
Between the BO and the ER ?
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#251337 - 08/03/2005 18:24
Re: Debt
[Re: boxer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
And that extraordinarily vacuous Mr.Blair, who will not be remembered for much except his chicanory, wants me to vote for its constitution!
I think not: Brits., put your X where Boxer puts his!
I though the constitution gave more power to the elected bits and less to the unelected bits? Or have I just been spun?
Peter
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#251338 - 08/03/2005 18:49
Re: Debt
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Quote:
Between the BO and the ER ?
That's it, right in the middle, where it counts!
I can see that my political career is getting off to a flying start!!!
If it's a choice between Bo Derek and the Queen, I know which way I'll be spinning!!!
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#251339 - 08/03/2005 18:49
Re: Debt
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I think for me, this part of the article reaffirmed that you can't vote for a person based on what they say election year. Quote:
On Nov. 1, 2000, as George W. Bush was campaigning for the White House, he warned an audience in Minneapolis that the Democrats would lead the nation into a future of higher taxes and slower economic growth that "could mean an end to this nation's prosperity." Bush won the election in part by portraying himself as an antidote to tax-and-spend liberals. Yet despite this bold austerity rhetoric, discretionary spending rose 23 per cent in Bush's first term. Just over four years after harping on the dangers of fiscal irresponsibility, the President is on his way to making his own warnings a reality.
Looking back at this comment, and many others, Bush has very much done a 180 once he put his hand on the Bible to be sworn in back in 2001. It's a shame to see, and I wish we had some sort of process to keep the elected officials accountable for their earlier "plans" talked about, to maybe make such talk mean more then just an attempt to sway voters.
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#251340 - 08/03/2005 18:54
Re: Debt
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
I though the constitution gave more power to the elected bits and less to the unelected bits? Or have I just been spun?
It is so difficult to know. Both sides are no doubt spinning to at least some degree and I expect reading all 349 pages I would be none the wiser either.
http://ue.eu.int/igcpdf/en/04/cg00/cg00087-re01.en04.pdf
I can't even bring myself to read the whole Wikipedia entry on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_constitution
If all it does is clarify and tidy up then I am happy to sign up, but who knows what it really does ?
I agree with Boxer on all the wasted resources for the parliament though.
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#251341 - 08/03/2005 18:56
Re: Debt
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Damn, only page 12 and it has the word "PLENIPOTENTIARIES"...
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#251342 - 08/03/2005 18:59
Re: Debt
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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These are all new to me:
"The anthem of the Union shall be based on the 'Ode to Joy' from the Ninth Symphony by Ludwig van Beethoven.
The motto of the Union shall be: 'United in diversity'.
Europe day shall be celebrated on 9 May throughout the Union."
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#251343 - 08/03/2005 20:12
Re: Debt
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Well, taking your line, once they took the middle "E" out of "EEC" and it became an unworkable mangle of disparate motivations, as opposed to a sensible way of competing in the World's marketplaces, they lost me.
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Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#251344 - 08/03/2005 20:16
Re: Debt
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
The motto of the Union shall be: 'United in diversity'.
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Power
Quote:
The anthem of the Union shall be based on the 'Ode to Joy'
Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee, God of glory, Lord of love;
Hearts unfold like flowers before Thee, opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness; drive the dark of doubt away;
Giver of immortal gladness, fill us with the light of day!
All Thy works with joy surround Thee, earth and heaven reflect Thy rays,
Stars and angels sing around Thee, center of unbroken praise.
Field and forest, vale and mountain, flowery meadow, flashing sea,
Singing bird and flowing fountain call us to rejoice in Thee.
Thou art giving and forgiving, ever blessing, ever blessed,
Wellspring of the joy of living, ocean depth of happy rest!
Thou our Father, Christ our Brother, all who live in love are Thine;
Teach us how to love each other, lift us to the joy divine.
Mortals, join the happy chorus, which the morning stars began;
Father love is reigning o’er us, brother love binds man to man.
Ever singing, march we onward, victors in the midst of strife,
Joyful music leads us Sunward in the triumph song of life.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#251345 - 08/03/2005 20:57
Re: Debt
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Quote:
Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee, God of glory, Lord of love;
Hearts unfold like flowers before Thee, opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness; drive the dark of doubt away;
Giver of immortal gladness, fill us with the light of day!
All Thy works with joy surround Thee, earth and heaven reflect Thy rays,
Stars and angels sing around Thee, center of unbroken praise.
Field and forest, vale and mountain, flowery meadow, flashing sea,
Singing bird and flowing fountain call us to rejoice in Thee.
Thou art giving and forgiving, ever blessing, ever blessed,
Wellspring of the joy of living, ocean depth of happy rest!
Thou our Father, Christ our Brother, all who live in love are Thine;Teach us how to love each other, lift us to the joy divine.
Mortals, join the happy chorus, which the morning stars began;
Father love is reigning o’er us, brother love binds man to man.
Ever singing, march we onward, victors in the midst of strife,
Joyful music leads us Sunward in the triumph song of life.
Don't see much latitude for the needs and aspirations of a multicultural community in that lot
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#251346 - 08/03/2005 21:03
Re: Debt
[Re: boxer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Don't see much latitude for the needs and aspirations of a multicultural community in that lot
No, but just think: With a little work, I think it could make a nifty soundtrack for an invasion.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#251347 - 08/03/2005 23:59
Re: Debt
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14482
Loc: Canada
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And the sad sad part, that we of the rest of the world are horrified at, is that he got *reelected* for another 4 years. Madness. Simply madness.
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#251348 - 09/03/2005 01:26
Re: Debt
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Power
Thank you, Bitt. Saved me digging out my Orwell... I'm getting old, couldn't remember how those slogans were worded.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#251349 - 09/03/2005 04:48
Re: Debt
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
And the sad sad part, that we of the rest of the world are horrified at, is that he got *reelected* for another 4 years. Madness. Simply madness.
Yeah, well... there's a pretty large group (maybe not a mandate's worth, though) down here that are pretty horrified, too. 
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#251350 - 09/03/2005 07:20
Re: Debt
[Re: mlord]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Here's some views from one small part of the rest of the world: 15 x 60 seconds: The Finns talk to the U.S. President. Pretty cool that a Commodore of the Navy would say "Violence creates only more violence". But I also wouldn't have thought I would live to see the day when a Commodore of the Finnish Navy is called "Georgij Alafuzoff" 
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#251351 - 10/03/2005 03:38
Re: Debt
[Re: schofiel]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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But the point of the article is that if the whole house of cards comes down, designations like Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, Republican, Labour, Tories, EEC, USA, etc., will be pointless.....we'll all be in it together....
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#251352 - 10/03/2005 10:09
Re: Debt
[Re: kayakjazz]
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addict
Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
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Quote:
But the point of the article is that if the whole house of cards comes down, designations like Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, Republican, Labour, Tories, EEC, USA, etc., will be pointless.....we'll all be in it together....
Unfortunately I doubt that even the collapase of the United States would really unify anything or anybody. Just a tad more evolution is needed in this corner of the universe...
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