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#277579 - 14/03/2006 01:29 sheet metal drawings
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
Seeing as their are no more Empegs or Rio cars being made, I would like to obtain the drawings for both the Empeg cases, and the sleds.

When time and funds allow I would like to produce an open source software/hardware platform that can be used in place of our players.
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#277580 - 14/03/2006 09:28 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
RobR does still make batches of sleds occasionally. There is a link up the top.

Is there any particular reason why you need the schematics for the metalwork? If you're going to be making your own player equivalent then nearly everything would change. The components inside the empeg are pretty old now and are no longer available so you can't use those. The software would need to be recreated from scratch as well. The only thing that would vaguely be similar is the metalwork but you might as well do that from scratch since you're doing everything else.

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#277581 - 14/03/2006 10:34 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: tman]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
yes all the guts would be different, and most of the holes on the back would probably be different. The only thing I would be trying to line up is the 24 contact docking connector. Doing so would allow a slip in conversion for people with empeg or rio car players.

What inspired this is this line of MP3 chips from ATMEL along with their USB on the go chip sets, and a buntch of other stuff. This would be an ultra low buck player that only supports MP3 files. There are also one chip solutions for AM, FM, DAB, and DRM radio here

another more powerful option is a more empeg like player based on off the shelf laptop PC parts.
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#277582 - 14/03/2006 10:47 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I would be really curious to see what the SigmaTel chipset would be able to do in this environment as well...
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#277583 - 14/03/2006 11:14 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: pgrzelak]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
SigmaTel chipset? please do tell.
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#277584 - 14/03/2006 11:47 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
SigmaTel chipset? please do tell.

The empeg development team are now part of SigmaTel and therefore so is the player codebase.

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#277585 - 14/03/2006 11:52 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
Doing so would allow a slip in conversion for people with empeg or rio car players.

With you so far...

Quote:
This would be an ultra low buck player that only supports MP3 files.

Okay. Lost me now. Why would you want to replace the empeg with something that whilst cheaper, is exactly the same physical size/shape and does less?

Quote:
another more powerful option is a more empeg like player based on off the shelf laptop PC parts.

There aren't that many off the shelf laptop PC parts. The only ones I can readily think of are HDs, miniPCI cards and memory. Everything else is usually part of a single motherboard that is custom made to fit into that specific laptop. I think you could just about wedge a NanoITX board into a DIN slot but it'd be a tight fit with the HDs and PSU as well.

The hardware is the "easy" part anyway. It is the software that will take you the time to get working well.

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#277586 - 14/03/2006 12:39 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: tman]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
Quote:
Okay. Lost me now. Why would you want to replace the empeg with something that whilst cheaper, is exactly the same physical size/shape and does less?


because it could potentially be produced for less than the cost of the 160GB drive in it. (think chip on board and metalized plastic)

Quote:

There aren't that many off the shelf laptop PC parts. The only ones I can readily think of are HDs, miniPCI cards and memory. Everything else is usually part of a single motherboard that is custom made to fit into that specific laptop. I think you could just about wedge a NanoITX board into a DIN slot but it'd be a tight fit with the HDs and PSU as well.


What I meant by off the shelf was the processor and related chip sets, it would be in essence a custom PC in a DIN case with the extra unneeded crap omitted. IE no

Battery charger,PCMCIA,PS2,keyboard/mouse interface,video card,printer port.

just OLED display w/touch screen interface,serial ports,USB on the go,fire wire,bluetooth,irda,802.11 something,kick ass audio chip set w/digital out+RCA,ATA interface,a few geek ports. and being an X86 compatible it can run Linux. The same board could also be mounted in 1.5 or 2 DIN case for larger displays or a potential 3.5" drive.

For the tuner I'd use a CATV brick as they tune from almost DC to about 550MHz, thus allowing AM, all broad cast TV audio, FM, CB, FRS+GMRS, a bunch of HAM bands, and if you can get quadrature from the IF section and feed it into a DSP you can get SSB reception and a slew of digital modes including DAB, DRM (can be decoded via sound card using DReaM, and probably a few others I've forgotten.
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#277587 - 14/03/2006 12:58 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
because it could potentially be produced for less than the cost of the 160GB drive in it. (think chip on board and metalized plastic)

Still not seeing the attraction. If you're going from scratch basically then you should try and reduce the size of the unit.

Quote:
What I meant by off the shelf was the processor and related chip sets, it would be in essence a custom PC in a DIN case with the extra unneeded crap omitted.

Off the shelf in the PC world implies that you can buy a bunch of these bits, bolt them together and you have a fully working PC. What your'e talking about is a huge amount of custom development and work. It has been done by others before. Usually it sells for some stupidly high price. Can't find the link at the moment but there was a 2 unit set which had the PC part in one and the LCD in the other.

The easiest way to do what you're thinking of is to buy one of the various SBCs out there and add bits onto it. It won't be cheap but it'll still be cheaper than starting from scratch yourself unless you have visions of selling thousands of these things.

Quote:
just OLED display w/touch screen interface,serial ports,USB on the go,fire wire,bluetooth,irda,802.11 something,kick ass audio chip set w/digital out+RCA,ATA interface,a few geek ports

If you're having everything and the kitchen sink installed, you might as well add back in the PS/2 ports and the VGA output.

Quote:
being an X86 compatible it can run Linux

It doesn't need to be an IA32 architecture to run Linux. In this application, you would be better suited to an XScale design of some kind. An Intel IXP or PXA would work well and be cheaper.

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#277588 - 14/03/2006 14:00 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: tman]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
Quote:
The easiest way to do what you're thinking of is to buy one of the various SBCs out there and add bits onto it. It won't be cheap but it'll still be cheaper than starting from scratch yourself unless you have visions of selling thousands of these things.


true or if you don't mind putting the computer in the trunk/boot use a cheaper full size ATX board, and just put the tuner, display, buttons, maybe even a 2.5" drive, in the DIN box. Basicaly a DIY version of that $2000 system.

Quote:
If you're having everything and the kitchen sink installed, you might as well add back in the PS/2 ports and the VGA output.


True again I just see them as unnessary, I was just considering that as I can make PCBs in a few hours with one of these
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#277589 - 14/03/2006 14:04 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30548
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
What I meant by off the shelf was the processor and related chip sets, it would be in essence a custom PC in a DIN case with the extra unneeded crap omitted.

Just wanted to point out that this is exactly what someone named Hugo Fiennes wanted to do a little while back. He was successful in his efforts. The result was the Empeg.

I'm not certain that you'd be able to pull it off for any cheaper than he did. But if you can, why try to match the empeg metalwork? You'd be talking about your own new car player with your own new hardware and software.

Remember that there are only about 4,000 empegs in existence, and probably significantly fewer active empeg owners than that number. And even fewer who would want a plug-in replacement. Trying to create a mass-produced item that appeals to so few people is going to be a money-losing proposition, I'd think.
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#277590 - 14/03/2006 14:07 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
What Trevor's getting at is that there are very few things that current empeg users want. Most of those are software-based. The only hardware things I can think of are a better display and faster uploads. And I think few of us would give up the rest of the empeg to gain those features unless the replacement was as good as the empeg is, especially software-wise. That said, why would you target a demographic which is both small and unlikely to switch?
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#277591 - 14/03/2006 14:17 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
True again I just see them as unnessary, I was just considering that as I can make PCBs in a few hours with one of <a href="javascript:pop_window('http://www.lpkfusa.com/RapidPCB/CircuitboardPlotters/m30s.htm')" target="_blank">these</a>

You can only do double sided boards with that plotter. It'd probably work for your absolute basic model which is the Atmel MP3 player on a chip but anything more advanced and you'll have to send the PCB design off to be manufactured for you.

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#277592 - 14/03/2006 14:49 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: tman]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
Quote:
Quote:
True again I just see them as unnessary, I was just considering that as I can make PCBs in a few hours with one of <a href="javascript:pop_window('http://www.lpkfusa.com/RapidPCB/CircuitboardPlotters/m30s.htm')" target="_blank">these</a>

You can only do double sided boards with that plotter. It'd probably work for your absolute basic model which is the Atmel MP3 player on a chip but anything more advanced and you'll have to send the PCB design off to be manufactured for you.


not true I used to use a 92s that is even older than that model, they don't sell it anymore, and I am able to make multilayer boards with it, granted it's a PITA to laminate the layers but I can do it. It's still faster and cheaper then sending them out. but I wouldn't use it for a production run.

My interest is aimed more at the Atmel stuff anyway as it will be simpler and fairly cheap to build. I wanted to model it after the MK2 so I could test and or use it in my car without rewiring.

I kinda like the idea someone here mentioned about the Ipod dock, but I can't get their interface specs without entering into an NDA, witch I sure is not free.


Edited by n2toh (14/03/2006 15:05)
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#277593 - 14/03/2006 17:19 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
not true I used to use a 92s that is even older than that model, they don't sell it anymore, and I am able to make multilayer boards with it, granted it's a PITA to laminate the layers but I can do it. It's still faster and cheaper then sending them out. but I wouldn't use it for a production run.

Doesn't it become really thick? How you doing the connections between internal layers?

Quote:
I kinda like the idea someone here mentioned about the Ipod dock, but I can't get their interface specs without entering into an NDA, witch I sure is not free.

The iPod dock accessory protocol? It has been reverse engineered and is just plain serial.

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#277594 - 14/03/2006 18:07 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: tman]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
Quote:
Quote:
not true I used to use a 92s that is even older than that model, they don't sell it anymore, and I am able to make multilayer boards with it, granted it's a PITA to laminate the layers but I can do it. It's still faster and cheaper then sending them out. but I wouldn't use it for a production run.

Doesn't it become really thick? How you doing the connections between internal layers?

Quote:
I kinda like the idea someone here mentioned about the Ipod dock, but I can't get their interface specs without entering into an NDA, witch I sure is not free.

The iPod dock accessory protocol? It has been reverse engineered and is just plain serial.


cool I haven't looked at ipod stuff in a long time. easy 5v TTL interface, I'll fire up Bascom AVR later and grindout some demo code.

darn I just chucked a bunch of old ISA cards, looks like I need to find a cheap ipod cable.
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#277595 - 14/03/2006 20:52 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: tman]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
for the first part, the same way the pros do it with very thin copper clad boards. you start with a double side board and bond single sided material on to build the layers.

interconnects between layers are done with vias, with this process I can't use blind vias only ones that go thou the board.

as for the tin plating in the holes their are three ways listed best to worst

board houses use and electro chemical bath that plates all exposed copper and bridges the gaps between the holes and interconnecting the inner layers. works great but the chemicals are nasty and have a short working life. I don't use this process.

second is the auto contact from LPFK it's an attachment for the milling machine that coats the inside of all the holes with a special solder paste that is baked before soldering. it works good but if you remove the part after soldering it damages the plate thou also the paste only keeps for a few weeks in the crisper.

last and I hate using these are copper rivets in the holes they take a min or two each to install, and can cause intermittent contacts after they start to corrode.The workaround to this is to solder both sides of the board

Also it helps if you can keep the auto router from placing the vias under the parts, for some reason it just loves to do that.

I also have Sweety to contend with while trying to work.


Attachments
277984-sweety.JPG (630 downloads)

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#277596 - 15/03/2006 15:00 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: tman]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
I admit my latter idea is now redundent by the nano itx board talked about in the VIA EPIA NL Motherboard thread.

Anyone know how to keep a cat from sitting on your keyboard?
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#277597 - 17/03/2006 01:35 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3118
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Anyone know how to keep a cat from sitting on your keyboard?

Try making it smell citrusy. The keyboard, that is, not the cat.

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#277598 - 18/03/2006 01:05 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: wfaulk]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
Quote:
why would you target a demographic which is both small and unlikely to switch?

Perhaps the intention is not to convert existing empeg users to his device. Instead, to not reinvent the wheel and use the empeg case/sled design for his project. One less thing to design, provided he is allowed to use it.

If I had whatever skill n2toh has, I'd wait for Sigmatel chips and their evolved empeg on-chip software.
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#277599 - 19/03/2006 13:49 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: FireFox31]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2991
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
The major problem with SigmaTel chips is - getting them. You need to have a minimum order quantity in the many thousands before they start to show interest.
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#277600 - 19/03/2006 18:20 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
Seeing as their are no more Empegs or Rio cars being made, I would like to obtain the drawings for both the Empeg cases, and the sleds.

When time and funds allow I would like to produce an open source software/hardware platform that can be used in place of our players.

How about developing a decent empeg replacement for DIN-less cars (under the seat or in the trunk main unit, something small and welcro-able for control and feedback)? I mean, there is a number of similar units, but none comes close to empeg featurewise...
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#277601 - 20/03/2006 03:08 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: bonzi]
n2toh
journeyman

Registered: 29/01/2001
Posts: 89
Loc: New Jersey, United States
I was going to say just look on ebay for that music keg thing that claims to be an empeg, but then read your qualifier about the features.

with the music keg what features would be needed?
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#277602 - 05/04/2006 17:27 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: n2toh]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
I was going to say just look on ebay for that music keg thing that claims to be an empeg, but then read your qualifier about the features.

with the music keg what features would be needed?

Hierarchical playlists (with links), and, related to that, database rather than filesystem-based navigation, powerful search, user-defined weighting criteria for shuffles, various goodies contained in HiJack, general configurability and hackability, parametric EQ...
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#277603 - 01/09/2006 04:06 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: bonzi]
iank
new poster

Registered: 24/08/2000
Posts: 33
Quote:
How about developing a decent empeg replacement for DIN-less cars (under the seat or in the trunk main unit, something small and welcro-able for control and feedback)? I mean, there is a number of similar units, but none comes close to empeg featurewise...


Or make is ISO-DIN instead of Euro-DIN. Like every other aftermarket unit out there. (ducking for cover)

Or come up with a nice tunr-key remote display and control solution.

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#277604 - 01/09/2006 13:51 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: iank]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Or make is ISO-DIN instead of Euro-DIN. Like every other aftermarket unit out there. (ducking for cover)

I find it hard to argue with that point.
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#277605 - 30/09/2006 16:44 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: wfaulk]
boxer
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
Quote:
Or make is ISO-DIN instead of Euro-DIN. Like every other aftermarket unit out there. (ducking for cover)


I know where you're going, but anything containing "DIN" is by definition European, as it's the German standards institute.
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#277606 - 30/09/2006 18:14 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: boxer]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yeah. It's actually just an ISO standard; nothing to do with DIN other than that's what stereo holes have colloquially come to be known as.
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#277607 - 06/10/2006 23:52 Re: sheet metal drawings [Re: wfaulk]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2491
Loc: East Coast, USA
ISO 10599 just doesn't have the same ring to it.
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