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#289902 - 17/11/2006 19:28 A very general SQL question
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5543
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
The software I use at work is SQL, provided by our Corporate Gods. It is badly conceived, poorly written, incompetently executed, but I have no choice but to use it. Every "upgrade" they force on us makes things worse. I have more experience in my area of work than any other employee in the corporation which has, I'd guess, about 50,000 employees, so I know whereof I speak. I would estimate that my workload has increased by 40-50% in the two and a half years we have used this software, producing the same output but at a considerable lesser quality. Because of this software I have actually changed my retirement plans, I am going to retire three years sooner than originally planned.

One of the quaint aspects of this software is that there is no way to purge obsolete data. I mean, no way whatsoever. Any bit of data entered in the system, no matter how trivial or time-limited is retained forever. So the database(s) in the system continue to grow without limit. I don't know how many different inter-related databases there are, or maybe, horrors, it's all in one big flat file with lots of indices. Beats me... but I do know that just the data that I put in is probably generating between 2,000 -- 3,000 new bits of retrievable information every day. And I'm not the only one entering data.

So now the question.How big can an SQL database system get before it collapses under its own weight?

I'm seeing hints of impending trouble already. The system is becoming less stable, the last update to the software ended up causing random bits of corruption and data loss here and there. The technical support for this software is superb, the best I've ever had for any product, hardware or software. They tell me not to worry.

What do you guys think?

tanstaafl.
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#289903 - 17/11/2006 19:44 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: tanstaafl.]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
"SQL" isn't really quite enough information to answer your question. "SQL" is a specification for how to interact with a database, not a product. Most databases are accessible via SQL queries.

However, Microsoft produces a product called "SQL Server", which is often abbreviated to "SQL", which is quite annoying.

Assuming that the product you're talking about is Microsoft SQL Server, I would doubt that the amount of data you're talking about is that big. Verizon seems to hold the record at over 5TB and over 33 billion records.

Oracle is another very popular database system, and it has a record of 100TB of data in 385 billion records. And that's not even the largest database in that survey (330TB for size, nearly 3 trillion rows, in different databases).

Of course, even that doesn't take into account the application that you're using that accesses the database. And that is, more likely, where any problems you're seeing lie. And that has virtually nothing to do with the database system itself.
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#289904 - 17/11/2006 22:15 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: wfaulk]
cushman
veteran

Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
Quote:
Oracle is another very popular database system, and it has a record of 100TB of data in 385 billion records. And that's not even the largest database in that survey (330TB for size, nearly 3 trillion rows, in different databases).

There is a good article at eWeek about Wal-Mart's data warehouse, which is reported to be over 500 terabytes by the article... in 1994. The vendor is NCR (my employer) and the database is Teradata. If the database is architected well enough, it can grow very large without many performance problems. Of course you have to have the right hardware setup to go with it, though.
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#289905 - 19/11/2006 18:27 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

However, Microsoft produces a product called "SQL Server", which is often abbreviated to "SQL", which is quite annoying.



Strange, I've never seen or heard SQL Server abbreviated as far as just "SQL". That would be annoying.

I have come across something very odd with my latest client through. They have a proprietary in-house database system that is referred to as See-quel (I haven't actually seen it written down, just spoken) even though it has no connection to anything even remotely SQL.
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#289906 - 19/11/2006 18:48 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: andy]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, no one who's aware of SQL separate from SQL Server abbreviates it that way, but I've heard a lot of non-technical people refer to it that way. It's interesting how people who don't know anything can confuse those who do.

For example, what would you assume Doug is talking about here?
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#289907 - 20/11/2006 03:53 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: wfaulk]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5543
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
For example, what would you assume Doug is talking about here?

I can answer that...

I say SQL because I see that acronym popping up in error messages, not because I have the foggiest idea of just what the software really consists of.


I'm basically looking for reassurance that whatever database system we are using is not going to implode under its own weight due to what I had thought was a large and ever growing size. Apparently what I thought was large was really pretty small potatoes. Probably not more than a couple million pieces of data in it. Wal-Mart probably adds that much every day to their database.

tanstaafl.
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#289908 - 20/11/2006 06:36 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

For example, what would you assume Doug is talking about here?


I would have assumed that he was talking about some sort of SQL based database. I wouldn't have assumed SQL Server, but that it just because I don't think I have ever heard anyone abbreviate SQL Server to just SQL.
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#289909 - 20/11/2006 06:38 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: tanstaafl.]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
Wal-Mart probably adds that much every day to their database.



They probably have a lot more hardware behind their database though...

That said, a few million records is not a problem for even lowly hardware nowadays. Even with a badly implemented database.
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#289910 - 20/11/2006 08:11 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: tanstaafl.]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
I'm basically looking for reassurance that whatever database system we are using is not going to implode under its own weight due to what I had thought was a large and ever growing size. Apparently what I thought was large was really pretty small potatoes.


It very well could if your software isn't implemented well. The database management system itself, whatever it is (eg., SQL Server, SQLite, etc.), is likely able to handle at least a few hundred gigs of data without problems and is very robust. So I think that the choice of DBMS is irrelevant here.

But if the structure of your database was poorly designed, or if your software is making very complex queries unnecessarily, or if it is trying to read more data than it can handle, then it could eventually come to a grinding halt. These would all be the fault of the software designers, not the database management system which is very robust but still open to inefficient usage.

Since you say that the software is "badly conceived, poorly written, incompetently executed" and that every upgrade "makes things worse", then I'm going to say yes, it is a very real possibility that your system is collapsing under its own weight.

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#289911 - 20/11/2006 09:50 Re: A very general SQL question [Re: tanstaafl.]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3583
Loc: Columbus, OH
Quote:
The system is becoming less stable, the last update to the software ended up causing random bits of corruption and data loss here and there.


Seems that it might describe Microsoft Access...probably packaged with Access Runtime. Running Access in a networked situation is pure crap. Contact the vendor and ask them what DBMS they use for their software to be sure.

The other possibility I can think of is a company with great service that can't write very good software. They may have hosed your data with the update due to sloppy coding and testing.
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