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#198454 - 14/01/2004 19:36 That old bugaboo -- Audible support
DLF
addict

Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
Here's a N.Y. Times article extolling the virtues of listening to spoken word stuff on digital audio players, as opposed to buying disks/tapes. Audible support is pretty much topping my wish list for Karma II (that, and larger HDD).
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#198455 - 14/01/2004 19:43 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: DLF]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 29699
Loc: Seattle, WA
According to their web site, the Rio600/800/900 can play Audible files. So the question is... Can the Karma, and if not, why not since clearly prior Rio players could...
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Tony Fabris

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#198456 - 14/01/2004 20:09 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: DLF]
Jerz
addict

Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 633
Loc: Jesusland
It would be nice to have the empeg play audible files as well as the Karma since I have an audible subscription to the WSJ. It's a pain to convert the files to .mp3 using Goldwave every morning but definately easier than burning a cd then creating the mp3.

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#198457 - 15/01/2004 06:00 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: tfabris]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5315
Loc: Cambridge UK
Can the Karma, and if not, why not since clearly prior Rio players could

No, current Rio players do not play Audible. This is due to business reasons (you can't just decide to support Audible, it requires a business agreement).

Things are afoot however.

Rob

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#198458 - 15/01/2004 06:02 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: Jerz]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5315
Loc: Cambridge UK
It would be nice to have the empeg play audible files as well

I'm not sure the Linux architecture would accommodate the requirements of the DRM. With more and more commercial content on the scene the future of Linux in embedded audio applications looks bleak

Rob

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#198459 - 15/01/2004 06:29 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: rob]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1282
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
I'm not sure the Linux architecture would accommodate the requirements of the DRM.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't. If somebody wants to hack the DRM software, there's really no difference in terms of ability to reverse-engineer/hack *an application* on windows, linux or some proprietary embedded system.

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#198460 - 15/01/2004 07:00 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: julf]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5315
Loc: Cambridge UK
Linux is GPL. I've yet to see a DRM license that is compatible with a GPL embedded system, or even LGPL in most cases (because of the reverse engineering clause).

Hackability is less of an issue in that the firmware and OS would have to be encrypted in all cases, but my point there is that a closed encrypted Linux distribution is no more useful to the owner than a proprietary OS. Having the source doesn't help if you can't upload modifications (is that even allowed by the GPL?).

Rob

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#198461 - 15/01/2004 07:14 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: rob]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4093
Loc: Cambridge, England
Hackability is less of an issue in that the firmware and OS would have to be encrypted in all cases
The way to do this properly is to have a bootloader which only reveals the device key to signed kernels. Release both a signed proprietary kernel and an unsigned Linux kernel and Bob's your uncle: a simple consumer choice between DRM and hackability, with changing one's mind in either direction just a firmware upgrade away. The only problem is that this requires specific hardware support to conceal the device key, otherwise a modified kernel, or root in userland, could just read it from wherever the bootloader got it from. We talked about such hardware support for certain future products, but I doubt it ever got into the actual spec for them.

Peter

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#198462 - 15/01/2004 08:22 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: rob]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1282
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
And the DRM stuff can't just be in one, encrypted module with everything else unencrypted?

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#198463 - 15/01/2004 08:31 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: rob]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Things are afoot however.
Excellent! Currently my wife (after about three days) listens to more audio books on her Karma than anything else. She says it's nice not having to change CDs.
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Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#198464 - 15/01/2004 09:19 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: rob]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Linux is GPL. I've yet to see a DRM license that is compatible with a GPL embedded system, or even LGPL in most cases (because of the reverse engineering clause).
I don't understand this at all. Oracle released a port of their database management system for Linux and it wasn't magically required to become open-source. For that matter, your own empeg player application is closed-source and no one has any problems with that. How would any other application differ?
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Bitt Faulk

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#198465 - 15/01/2004 09:27 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: wfaulk]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4093
Loc: Cambridge, England
I don't understand this at all. Oracle released a port of their database management system for Linux and it wasn't magically required to become open-source. For that matter, your own empeg player application is closed-source and no one has any problems with that. How would any other application differ?
Embedded systems tend to need everything, including the kernel, linked together into a single binary. Certainly Ecos does, the OS used on Karma. In that situation you don't have the kernel/userland "firewall", uncrossable by the GPL, which keeps a Linux kernel and Oracle userland DBMS separate.

DRM licences tend to further require that licensees make it impossible to write a "Total Recorder"-style program for their products, a promise we couldn't make if the kernel were modifiable by all.

Peter

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#198466 - 15/01/2004 09:43 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: julf]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5370
Loc: Surrey, UK
Only if you also moved all of the interface between the encrypted audio and the audio output hardware into the encrypted module (including stopping the rest of the kernel from reading any memory buffers that the module uses). At which point you may as not well be using the Linux kernel anyway.
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#198467 - 15/01/2004 09:50 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: peter]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Embedded systems tend to need everything, including the kernel, linked together into a single binary.
But Linux doesn't, and the stated reason for not using Linux is because the license would require that the kernel would require the app to be separate. There may well be other technical reasons you don't want to use Linux, but this licensing argument doesn't seem to hold water...
DRM licences tend to further require that licensees make it impossible to write a "Total Recorder"-style program for their products, a promise we couldn't make if the kernel were modifiable by all.
except for that.
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Bitt Faulk

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#198468 - 15/01/2004 12:13 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: peter]
brendanhoar
enthusiast

Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
Didn't redhat just gpl eCos and assign the (C) to the FSF? If that's what the Karma is using, then I'm not sure what the difference is between using eCos with DRM and linux with DRM...

(or maybe versions before this recent move continue with their old license....or perhaps it was dual licensed?)

-brendan


Edited by brendanhoar (15/01/2004 12:14)

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#198469 - 15/01/2004 12:20 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: brendanhoar]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4093
Loc: Cambridge, England
Didn't redhat just gpl eCos and assign the (C) to the FSF? If that's what the Karma is using, then I'm not sure what the difference is between using eCos with DRM and linux with DRM...

(or maybe versions before this recent move continue with their old license....or perhaps it was dual licensed?)
We got Ecos under their old licence, the RHEPL (we also downloaded Ecos 2, available under a licence which is the GPL with the requirement to GPL linked code removed). As the FSF are becoming the new copyright holders of Ecos, they can if they wish release future versions under "pure" GPL instead. But even if they do, that doesn't retrospectively affect the licence under which we got our copy.

(I suspect the overwhelming majority of users of Ecos wouldn't migrate to a "pure GPL" version for exactly the reasons we wouldn't -- I don't think many hobbyists use Ecos, it's all commercial companies. A hobbyist would surely use Linux instead.)

Peter

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#198470 - 15/01/2004 12:32 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: brendanhoar]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5370
Loc: Surrey, UK
I think it comes down to how everything gets packaged. If you build a system using Linux then if you want DRM code that people don't get to see the source to then it has to be in your application or in a binary loadable module (because building it into the kernel would require changing the GPL protected code and therefore require you to ship you DRM changes). In both cases if someone can get at the kernel binary and replace it they can bypass the DRM.

eCos on the other had is designed to have third party code built into it at compile time. Therefore you can end up shipping a single binary so someone can't just swap in another kernel.

Of course this difference is fair moot if you encrypt/sign the binaries and have you permanent firmware only load signed binaries. I'm guessing that the Karma probably does something like this anyway.

IANAL


Edited by andy (15/01/2004 12:33)
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#198471 - 16/01/2004 09:38 Re: That old bugaboo -- Audible support [Re: peter]
brendanhoar
enthusiast

Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
> As the FSF are becoming the new copyright holders of
> Ecos, they can if they wish release future versions
> under "pure" GPL instead. But even if they do, that doesn't
> retrospectively affect the licence under which we got our
> copy.

Sounds like a license-mandated fork is likely coming then...hmm.

-brendan

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