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#10028 - 28/06/2000 08:37 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: schofiel]
Henno
addict

Registered: 15/07/1999
Posts: 568
Loc: Meije, Netherlands
...and here lies the problem; when you rip, you take the entire bit range off the CD as raw data before processing. This means that if you have been used to a particular reproduction standard of audio playback from a given CD drive, you will inevitably surprised by the difference in sound from a rip since the ripping software is working with different source material to your CD player in the form of extra data.

I don't understand this part, Rob. Are you saying that the ripping process uses the data that is actually on the disk, and thus is processing different sound (content) than the (error-masked) play-back of audio equipment?

Henno
ex 00120
ready to score one of the 40
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#10029 - 28/06/2000 09:11 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: teemcbee]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
No, the new software has identical output to the current stuff, it just takes less CPU time (as if we're short of it!).

It's had lots of testing as it's in some of the other OEM products already.

Hugo



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#10030 - 28/06/2000 09:51 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: altman]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
128, 160 and now VBR. My collection is looking seriously patchy ;)

Mine, too. For a while I was satisified with 128, but that was when I was listening to the MP3s on a cheap computer soundcard. After getting the Empeg, I discovered that 128 isn't enough. The higher-quality amps and speakers in my car allowed me to hear artifacts that I didn't notice on my computer. Now I'm slowly going through my collection and re-encoding everything with the Xing VBR engine.

Incidentally, if you're switching to the Xing VBR encoder that's in AudioCatalyst, I suggest that you skip the middle bitrate setting (called "Normal") altogether and go straight for the next one up, the one called "Normal/High".

The "Normal" setting produces files that are slightly smaller than a 128kpbs file, and although the high-frequency artifacts are less frequent, there is still a slight quality loss if you listen closely on some material. If you go with "Normal/High", you get files that are slightly bigger than 128kbps files, but the quality is much better.

___________
Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#10031 - 28/06/2000 09:59 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: Henno]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
No, not quite.

What comes off the disc is fed to a decoder. Small blocks of data are used to represent data, called symbols. Symbols are easier to fix than pure binary, so you can read off the disk with high error rates and yet still get all your original data back.

The symbol decoder corrects any busted symbols where possible (note!) and then decodes them into pure binary data (the original data generated during the recording process in the studio). This lot then enters the output chain of your CD player, and what part of it is actually used to create sound is up to the designer of the output chain. In two examples I know of, one had the bottom three bits chopped off each sample for each stereo channel (it's not as simple as this, by the way ) due to tests that showed this would improve the quality of the output. The other used single bit output, where the sample streams were manipulated on the fly to improve noise figures (a very expensive DSP {for 1990 that is} was needed for that one, I can tell you). Note that if a symbol is irretrievably busted, this is where the player has to act smart by either guessing what the correct value would be (it makes up a value based on trends) or simply causing the output to mute before the erroneous value is presented to the DACs. You can see that all sorts of stuff can take place in your CD's output stage before you hear it. Each player is different, as well, 'cos playback strategies on damaged symbols are formulated differently by different companies.

The difference with the data used by a RIPper is that when you RIP using a CD-ROM drive, at the point where you actually get the binary channel samples, the MP3 encoder is given data with all of the bits of each sample available. They are unmodified, and can contain uncorrected samples with error markers. With a CD player, the output stage designer may choose to correct (described above), or even modify the data word size by choice while trying to avoid the effects of signal spectrum modification in the time domain (ie. after the signal has been reconstructed). In the early days this was to compensate for non-linearity in the DACs or to cover noise. With the MP3 encoder, who knows what choices the designers have made about the content of the data stream and their strategies on damaged symbol data?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#10032 - 28/06/2000 10:25 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: tfabris]
dionysus
veteran

Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
In reply to:

Incidentally, if you're switching to the Xing VBR encoder that's in AudioCatalyst, I suggest that you skip the middle bitrate setting (called "Normal") altogether and go straight for the next one up, the one called "Normal/High".


Agreed - this is what I almost always use, and I can definately tell a difference at this stage.
-mark

...proud to have owned one of the first Mark I units

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#10033 - 28/06/2000 10:36 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: schofiel]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
With the MP3 encoder, who knows what choices the designers have made about the content of the data stream and their strategies on damaged symbol data?

MP3 encoders and decoders assume that the data is undamaged. They input and output streams of 16-bit numbers, each number representing the position of the speaker cone at a given point in time. That's all. They don't try to error-compensate the audio data stream.

A properly ripped .WAV file from a CD should have no symbol errors. I agree that a .WAV file ripped from a CD will sound different than the CD audio track, but only because the DAC which plays the audio track is different than the DAC which plays the .WAV file. Not because of symbol errors.

The ideal situation would be to create your MP3s from the same original raw wave data that was used to create the CD master, bypassing the ripping process altogether. This would remove any possibility of introducing symbol errors before the MP3 encoding happens. That's one reason I like the idea of artists making their own MP3s and distributing them.

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Tony Fabris
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#10034 - 28/06/2000 11:44 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: altman]
Verement
journeyman

Registered: 02/09/1999
Posts: 97
Loc: Boston, MA, US
In reply to:

The Xaudio decoder is, as with almost all decoders, +- 0.5 bit (ie, the lowest bit of the output can differ from that of the frauhofer reference decoder).


The Xaudio decoder produces different output depending on platform. According to the compliance tests I have performed, the x86 version indeed passes the strictest accuracy test, but the ARM version passes only the limited accuracy test.

What do I mean?

Part 4 of ISO/IEC 11172 defines the compliance tests for MPEG audio and video. Section 2.6.3 defines the computational accuracy tests for audio decoders. It states, "To be called an ISO/IEC 11172-3 audio decoder, the decoder shall provide an output such that the rms level of the difference signal between the output of the decoder under test and the supplied reference output is less than 2^(-15)/sqrt(12) for the supplied sine sweep (20Hz-10kHz) with an amplitude of -20dB relative to full scale. In addition, the difference signal shall have a maximum absolute value of at most 2^(-14) relative to full-scale."

Then it says, "To be called a limited accuracy ISO/IEC 11172-3 audio decoder, the decoder shall provide an output for a provided test sequence such that the rms level of the difference signal between the output of the decoder under test and the supplied reference output is less than 2^(-11)/sqrt(12) for the supplied sine sweep (20Hz-10kHz) with an amplitude of -20dB relative to full scale."

The tests treat the decoder output as 24-bit signed fractional values in the range [-1, 1). In other words, the binary point is immediately after the sign bit. For the purposes of compliance testing, where only 16 bits of output are available, the remaining bits are set to zero. When I tested version 1.3.1 of the Xaudio decoder library under both x86 and ARM, here's what I found:

Xaudio 1.3.1, x86
  RMS level = 8.602 x 10^-6 (under 8.810 x 10^-6; full accuracy compliant)
  Max diff = 1.538 x 10^-5 (under 6.104 x 10^-5; full accuracy compliant)

Xaudio 1.3.1, ARM
  RMS level = 2.065 x 10^-5 (over 8.810 x 10^-6 but under 1.410 x 10^-4; limited accuracy compliant)
  Max diff = 6.580 x 10^-5 (over 6.104 x 10^-5)

As you can see, Xaudio's accuracy under ARM is worse than +- 0.5 bit; it's more like +- 2 bits, i.e., the 16-bit integer value can differ from the reference output by as much as 4 in either direction.

I'd be happy to share the Perl scripts I used to calculate these. The bitstreams and reference output used for compliance testing can be found here.

I'm curious; what decoder are you considering switching to?

-v


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#10035 - 28/06/2000 12:09 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: tfabris]
Henno
addict

Registered: 15/07/1999
Posts: 568
Loc: Meije, Netherlands
I'm ... re-encoding everything ... VBR.
go straight to ... "Normal/High"


Yup, came to the very same conclusions very early in the game. Have everything encoded at Normal/High with VBR; some 17GB worth !

Henno
ex 00120
ready to score one of the 40
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Henno mk2 [orange]6 [/orange]nr 6

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#10036 - 28/06/2000 13:08 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: Verement]
TommyE
enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 356
Loc: NORWAY
Hmm, and I started out talking about 2v on my Sony compared to 4volt on my Empeg. :):)

I didn't understand much, but it sounds good.

TommyE

TommyE


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#10037 - 28/06/2000 14:14 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: Verement]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
This fascinates me tremendously. I'm dying to see what Mike and Hugo have to say about this.

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Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#10038 - 28/06/2000 16:28 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: Henno]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Henno --

Go here: http://www.iasca.com/ and choose the "Iasca Store" link. This is the CD that is used for all judging in IASCA competitions, complete with diagrams showing the sound stage and a host of technical tracks.

Enjoy!

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#10039 - 28/06/2000 23:55 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: Henno]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Also, most CD players make no serious attempt at all to avoid jitter, and actually I haven't seen a head unit for in-car use yet that tries to avoid it. (This is where playback equipment comes in: to avoid jitter, you can't rely on the rotational speed of the disk to extract the data at the right pace in the first place).

Of course one cannot rely on CD transport rotational speed for timing reference, but, unless I am very much mistaken, nobody does. AFAIK, the thing works the other way around: timing reference is provided by a (hopefully stable) clock that paces DAC, and if FIFO feeding the DAC starts emptying too quickly, the drive servo gets instructed to spin a bit faster. Now, if you make the FIFO magasample or so deep, you get skip protection as found on portables or ICE units. In any case, no need for acoustic isolation nonsense in imitation of analog turntables.

Just my ~ 0.17 HRK :)




Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196
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#10040 - 29/06/2000 13:24 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: schofiel]
phaigh
addict

Registered: 04/11/1999
Posts: 649
Loc: Reading, UK
If you pay extra to buy "speed stabilised drive mechanics" then you have been suckered ; the drive speed could drop to zero for up to a quarter of a second (in modern audio players) without affecting the playback in the least, since the data stream from the disk drive is recognised as being unstable; as a result, it is buffered in a FIFO which feeds the data out at an accurate clock rate to the DACs. As long as the FIFO is fed, then there is no need to mute. You should be paying more for accurate, synchronised output stage clocks (aka Linn) and large FIFOs, coupled to accurate, linear, high bitcount DACs.

So how come that when I add an isolation pad to my CD player (and amp) the music sounds significantly better then?

I recently came into some money and bought a new home system (Arcam FMJ series, as it happens) and a 70ukp isolation pad gave the music a significantly better sound stage (in the pure sense) and a much greater range.

I don't see why, apart from the noise from travelling at 60mph, this sort of extra isolation couldn't be added to a car stereo.

As far as I can see:

Better laser precision = better reproduction of the audio stream.

?

Cheers,

Paul

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254
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#10041 - 29/06/2000 14:08 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: phaigh]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
So how come that when I add an isolation pad to my CD player (and amp) the music sounds significantly better then? (...) As far as I can see: Better laser precision = better reproduction of the audio stream.

No, because the laser on a CD player is not analagous to the needle on a record player. The laser has nothing to do with the audio quality.

As long as the laser is able to extract the data from the CD without errors, it doesn't matter how precise or suceptible to vibration it is. That's the whole point of a digital audio system: The responsibility for sound reproduction lies with the DACs and the amplifiers, not the transport mechanism.

Now, I will grant that if the laser is getting errors when it extracts the data, your sound will suffer. But unless something is radically wrong with your CD player or the CDs you're playing, they shouldn't be getting any errors at all. And when they do get errors, they'll manifest themselves as things like skips, not as soundstaging problems.

If adding your special "isolation pad" genuinely improved the sound, then I suggest that there was something else wrong with your system which was causing other problems. Perhaps a ground loop between the CD player and the amplifier, or a loose wire which got reconnected better as a result of you moving the components to insert the isolation pad. But simply preventing vibrations from reaching the CD player shouldn't have any effect on the sound as long as the data is still being read off the CD without skips. A CD player is not a turntable, and there is no need to isolate it.

I submit to you that in a proper, randomized, double-blind test, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the presence or absence of the isolation pad.

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Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#10042 - 29/06/2000 14:51 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: tfabris]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
What gets my goat particularly are the audiophiles to claim to tell the difference between *digital* interconnects, and advise you spend a pile on special cored gold cables for your SP/DIF runs.

I mean. 1.6Mbit. 50cm usually. I can do 100mbit over 100m with plain unshielded twisted pair cable and get no errors. And they claim to tell the difference with 50cm of coax? Errrrr.... no.

Hugo



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#10043 - 29/06/2000 16:19 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: rob]
n6mod
enthusiast

Registered: 27/09/1999
Posts: 200
Loc: Berkeley, CA
This brings up an interesting experiment we tried some time ago. I didn't really think anything of it at the time, but since we're discussing it.

We tried an A/B test between the empeg MkI and an obscenely expensive Krell CD player. The rest of the system was high-end stuff as well: Balanced Audio Labs preamp, some Glow-FET amplifier (eight 6550s, this was not a single ended triode ;), and Thiel speakers.

The test track was Mummer's Dance by Lorenna McKinnett, and the empeg was playing a file encoded by AudioCatalyst (Mac) at either 160kbps or Normal/High VBR, I don't remember.

Aside from the expected loss of clarity at the high end, we noticed something truly bizarre with the soundstage.

From CD, Lorenna's voice was nearly centered left/right, and seemed to be emanating from a point about 2 feet above the floor. From the empeg, it was about 4 feet higher.

Being engineer types, we spent a little while trying to figure out what could possibly change in the audio signal that could cause a change in the apparent _height_ of a voice. Can any of you audiophiles shed some light on this one?

-Zandr, Mk.II order confirmation in hand....and I'm keeping my Mk. I. ;)

-Zandr
Mk.I #150
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Mk.IIa #010101243 currently getting a 500GB SSD. More spares in the shed.

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#10044 - 29/06/2000 16:28 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: n6mod]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Hmm.

If I was a marketing type, I'd be dreaming up ad copy from this sort of thing:

empeg - makes your music fly(*)

(*) Actual altitude gain depends on encoding. Average gain 4 feet (enough to lie under madonna if desired. Not recommended for the end of operas).

Hugo ;)




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#10045 - 29/06/2000 16:31 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: n6mod]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Being engineer types, we spent a little while trying to figure out what could possibly change in the audio signal that could cause a change in the apparent _height_ of a voice. Can any of you audiophiles shed some light on this one?

It sounds like you're the only one who's actually done a direct A/B comparison and listened for soundstaging changes. My take is that a difference in frequency response might explain it. As you noted, MP3 discards ultra high frequency data. I'd love to see the same A/B test done with a straight .WAV file.

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Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#10046 - 29/06/2000 16:33 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: altman]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Average gain 4 feet (enough to lie under madonna if desired.*

* even with the cone-breast costume from the "open your heart" video.

___________
Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#10047 - 29/06/2000 22:14 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: n6mod]
PaulWay
addict

Registered: 03/08/1999
Posts: 451
Loc: Canberra, Australia
In reply to:

Being engineer types, we spent a little while trying to figure out what could possibly change in the audio signal that could cause a change in the apparent _height_ of a voice. Can any of you audiophiles shed some light on this one?


I'll chime in on this one. The reason, simply, is that your ears are not round.

The main theory of why a persons ears have all the little dents and whorls and are generally asymmetrical is to do with the person's ability to locate a sound in space. The shape of the ear affects the way sound enters the ear - sound from behind you generally loses some of its high frequency components. Normally, you can tell where a sound is coming from in the horizontal plane by a combination of phase changes, timing changes, and frequency and volume alterations (as the sound travels around your head, for example). Positioning a sound in the vertical plane is done by associating various frequency responses with various 'heights'.

Now, the frequency response graph is an arcane thing, but generally, for instance, sounds coming from behind and below lose more of their high frequency components. Therefore, all other things being equal, something with boosted trebles sounds like it's coming from above. If the MP3 recording had some treble distortion, which in other points in this thread has been pointed out to be the case, it might simulate this effect.

That's my guess, anyway.

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

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#10048 - 30/06/2000 02:11 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: altman]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK


One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

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#10049 - 30/06/2000 02:39 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: tfabris]
phaigh
addict

Registered: 04/11/1999
Posts: 649
Loc: Reading, UK
I hear what you are saying. I was very sceptical at the time too.

However, this was done (not quite as sa double-blind) blind: the audio guy didn't tell us if he had added the isolation pad or not.

Both myself and my girlfriend could tell the difference in the audio shop and also at home.

Now I admit that I may now be biased based on the fact that I did buy the pads (although he ended up giving them to me for free - long story), but I'm willing to stake my reputation (not that I've got any) that for some reason the isolation pads did improve the sound stage and range.

I'm no audiophile (but trying), but I definitely know what I heard.

The CD and Amp were brand new (i.e. out of the box the day before) and had been on for 24hrs+ (so the power supplies /DAC were settled too).

Perhaps by adding the pads we were altering some cabling but we repeated the excercise a number of times (more than half a dozen), every time with the same result - better sound stage and range from the isolation pad, so this seems an unlikely result from anything which is transient.

The audio guy mentioned about some theory papers that had been written on the subject, so I'll give him a call and see if he can dig them out.

Cheers,

Paul.

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254
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#10050 - 30/06/2000 03:03 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: phaigh]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
So how come that when I add an isolation pad to my CD player (and amp) the music sounds significantly better then?

To be honest, absolutely no idea - but there is no mechanical decoupling provided by an isolation pad to the laser platform whatsoever. Isolation pads are used for turntables or speakers, since they have mechano-acoutic componentry. The CD player does not have any.

Even were a laser head susceptible to harmonic vibration (and they are not, even the cheap ones, as they are *carefully* designed to stop this), this would only affect the laser's ability to track (side to side) and focus (up and down). Both of these effects are corrected in CD players, so even under the worst mechanical conditions, the error rate reading symbols does not go up very much. Don't forget, you are not using a mechanical interface reading "individual data bits" (record player, although this is a pretty bad analogy), you are using light to read "lumps of data" (CD player).

It is easy to glue a broken pot back together from the pieces since you have indications of the form of the object before it was broken, just by observation. If, however, the pot was smashed and then ground to dust, it would be impossible to reconstruct it accurately since there is less indication of the original form (the "grain" of the pieces is far smaller).

So even if your player was vibrating at the resonant frequency of one vital component of the laser focus unit (they are designed so that each subsystem vibrates at a different frequency that doesn't overlap with another component's resonant frequency), then only one aspect of it's performance (say, it's ability to focus) is affected. Immediately, dynamic compensation to correct it comes into play to try and bring down the change in error rates that are detected. Even if this doesn't work, there's still error correction of the damaged symbols going on ("reconstructing the pot"). Even if this correction doesn't work, there's still interpolation going on to "guess" what the music should have been doing. If all that goes wrong, then the player (usually) just mutes the output for a split second.

So as you can see, it's actually pretty damn hard to get a mechanical effect on the playback of the CD player, short of giving it a really good thump and putting the laser playback head off track for longer than about 220ms, or well beyond the designed mechanical operational range of one axis of the head.

For you to say that an isolation pad has improved the quality of playback, I would be inclined to say that in installing the pad, you have rectified a mechanical or electrical problem elsewhere in the interconnection of your system's units. I would also be be personally inclined not to trust the guy who sold you the pad specifically for this purpose (especially at 70 quid) since it is utterly unsuited for what he purports. Stick it under your Linn Sonndek, your vinyl will sound much better (mind you, if it's a Sonndek, it probably won't need it ). Having read your post again, it looks as if you have bought a complete system with new components. Are you sure the change in sound quality is not simply due to the fact you now have (overall) a much better system than your original?

From my own experience, the greatest influences on playback errors of a CD are in the mastering and stamping process of the factory producing the disks in bulk. I worked on a disk QA system in the 80's that measured the error rate and distribution (see this post) which allowed them to work out the rate of stamper wear. As the stampers are used, they are "plucked" and "stuffed" by the disk material they are stamping. They get clogged up or loose definition, and have to be cleaned. After a while, they wear out and are replaced. "Worn Out" means that the stamper is creating more than a certain rate and density of critical errors on playback of the disks they create. The most critical problems relate to tracking (side to side movement to follow the tracks). As long as the laser stays on track then focus errors caused by a dirty disk or disk warps (or whatever) are easier to deal with, 'cos you are still getting data. If you completely loose tracking, then you loose your data source and kablooey, it's the end of the game (click)



One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

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#10051 - 30/06/2000 03:12 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: tfabris]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
I'm begining to notice a dangerous trend here, Hugo - first the "What Men Really Think" advert from AdCritic, descriptions of Madonna, ideas about being sandwiched between young female starlets, a high proportion of young female-sourced music on the director's empeg.....

Cold filtered beer sex pizza computers cars sex money sex jolt cola geek toys sex football sex linux pizza pub sex, anyone?

Exactly. Just what I was thinking

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#10052 - 30/06/2000 09:08 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: phaigh]
Henno
addict

Registered: 15/07/1999
Posts: 568
Loc: Meije, Netherlands
I hear what you are saying. I was very sceptical at the time too.
(italics are mine).


I know what you mean Paul. Until my enthousiastic high-end shop owner demonstrated that even the type of connects he used to link speakers to the speaker wire make a difference (he replaced the banana plugs with spades). I know that electrically this hardly makes sense, but hearing is believing: the little things like a proper audio rack, placement of components, the inter-connects used, all make a noticeable even when die hard engineers claim that there can't be any difference because they can't measure it (yet ??). Until they try for themselves, and listen, they will remain as sceptical as you (and I) were.

Henno
ex 00120
ready to score one of the 40
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#10053 - 30/06/2000 09:31 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: Henno]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Until my enthousiastic high-end shop owner demonstrated that even the type of connects he used to link speakers to the speaker wire make a difference (he replaced the banana plugs with spades).

I'm not saying I'm skeptical of things like proper interconnects in analog gear, especially in your particular example. It makes perfect sense that the more solid the connection of the speakers to the amp, the more accurate the sound will be. This is well known in all audio circles, not just home and car audio. I've done a bit of work with sound support for live rock 'n roll performances, and I know how important things like wire gauge and good plugs can be in preventing problems. In fact, invariably, the interconnects are always the weak link in the chain and are the first things you check when something goes wrong.

But that's all talking about things which carry the actual analog signal of the sound.

What I'm skeptical about is that a vibration-damping pad under a CD player can improve the soundstage. Unless there is something wrong with the CD player which the pad corrects (or unless you set the CD player directly atop a subwoofer or directly in front of your speakers), then there should be absolutely no difference in the digital bytes which reach the DACs, whether the pad is present or not. The only thing that matters are: (a) that the bytes reach the DACs undamaged, (b) how good the DACs are at turning the bytes into analog signals, and (c) what happens to the analog signal after the DACs are done making it.

(Side note: I'm enjoying our little debate here, and it seems to be staying pretty civilized. I hope that the fact some of us disagree on this point isn't a problem, because I really respect the minds and opinions of everyone participating.)

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Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#10054 - 30/06/2000 11:51 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: tfabris]
TommyE
enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 356
Loc: NORWAY
I must say I agree with you Tony. /me to can't see how padding is supposed to
help the audio quality. Also as Hugo pointed out, can't see how people can tell
the difference on audio fed thru cables digitally.

Audio , pictures, text whatever we see it everyday on our computers, good thing they're not that picky........... :)

TommyE


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#10055 - 30/06/2000 13:46 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: TommyE]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
/me to can't see how padding is supposed to help the audio quality.

I can see how padding is supposed to help the audio quality, but I can't see how it does.

The argument for the padding goes something like this:

Once upon a time, audiophiles listened to everything on vinyl LPs. These had a very sensitive method for extracting the analog data from the groove, and acoustic and vibration isolation was important. Isolating the turntable could improve the sound in subtle ways. Companies made money by selling these things. All was well.

Then CDs came out and turntables became useless practically overnight.

So the companies said to themselves, "Well, CDs are a lot like turntables, except they use a laser instead of a needle. So what's good for the goose must logically be good for the gander, and we'll re-mark our products for CD-player owners."

That's the argument anyway. I'll leave it to the rest of you to figure out what the companies really said to themselves...

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Tony Fabris
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Tony Fabris

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#10056 - 30/06/2000 14:50 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: PaulWay]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Nice explanation, Paul. We have covered MP3 encoders' frequency response here quite extensively. What do we know about phase distortion introduced by MP3 encoding/decoding?

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
#5196
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#10057 - 01/07/2000 02:01 Re: Opinions on empeg sound stage [Re: tfabris]
phaigh
addict

Registered: 04/11/1999
Posts: 649
Loc: Reading, UK
Okay, so consider this:

The isolation pad may not be improving the digital data from the CD itself, but all of the other components (power supply, etc) between the laser and the audio output.

I can see your thinking and I'm definitely believing my ears (since I have to trust them ) so perhaps the CD laser isn't what is helped.

I also found a url of a review of some isolation pads:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/steve06.htm

and here:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/db07.htm

Enjoy!

Paul.

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254
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