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#119911 - 20/10/2002 10:39 Re: sniper [Re: RobotCaleb]
mschrag
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
Pretty creepy ... the latest one is like 5-10 minutes from me ... It's pretty disconcerting having cops at your exit every day patrolling looking for a serial killer. Of course your odds of dying are thousands of times higher just driving your car at all, but it's still creepy.

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#119912 - 20/10/2002 10:56 Re: sniper [Re: mschrag]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12043
Loc: Sterling, VA
Yeah, I was joking about him hitting my area when I went home for the weekend, and the one on Monday was really close to me. Scary stuff.
_________________________
Matt

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#119913 - 20/10/2002 14:37 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
ilDuce
journeyman

Registered: 22/06/2002
Posts: 92
Well, about the sniper.
I think he may have some small military training I think. He is not chosing victims by itself. But he is chosing them after places. Like a gas station, where the "objects" are slow or non moving are easy targets. Anybody being within the area of affect is chosen just because. And about a real sniper wont leave any victis alive or he would shoot them in the head is totally wrong. A real sniper would shoot towards the chest and aim to the heart. There is just to much that could go wrong aiming at the head (Wind, breathing, tick) a shot from 400 yards will be missed if not all the factors are perfect. That is why you aim at the chest, its a bigger target. Its better to injure and possibly kill the enemy than missing him. And about using a kevlar west. Well Im not sure about how much .228 cal is. Where I live we count the caliber in millimeters. And with a weapon capable of "sniping" from 400 yards I dont think a west would help very much. The best way would be to run zig-zag and to be covered from as many directions as possible. (I am from sweden btw).


And about the WTC terrorism. Of course its wrong to kill 2800 poeple and call it jihad. But its equally wrong to invade any country at all (kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan) Of course you could debate all about the purpose of invading Kuwait and Iraq, but why the hell would you invade Afghanistan??? Invade and surpress an entire country on behalf of what 1 renegade organisation did!!!! Thats just sick! I think that entire war was because Bush had to do SOMETHING. And in the meanwhile maybe collect an extra vote or two.
I think that war, injustice, murders are wrong in ALL ways. No matter what banner or name/philosophy youre marching under.
And about the propaganda, BOTH countries have done their share of it. The big difference is that USA is a hell of alot better at it than Bin Laden is. Remember that the best propagande is the propagande you dont notice!

Not that its wrong or anything, I just think that USA is probably one of the most patriotic countries in the world, because of really "good" propaganda through the years.

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#119914 - 20/10/2002 15:04 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5572
Loc: London, UK
Its better to injure and possibly kill the enemy than missing him.

When you're fighting a war, it's generally better to injure the enemy, rather than kill him. Killing one guy deprives the opposition of one guy. Injuring one guy deprives the opposition of that one guy, the two or three guys required to get him back to medical assistance, the dozen or so medics back at the hospital...

This is why anti-personnel landmines maim, rather than kill, people.
_________________________
-- roger

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#119915 - 20/10/2002 17:40 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    Well Im not sure about how much .228 cal is. Where I live we count the caliber in millimeters.
First, it's .223 caliber. And, while I'm not an expert at this sort of thing, I believe that that's basically the US term for 5.56 NATO ammo, which is what's used in M-16s, but not the 5.56 Long ammo that's used in AK-47s. Actually, .223 and 5.56 ammo is slightly different, but they're close enough that some people use them interchangeably. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was impossible to tell the difference once the bullet has hit something. Anyway, the cartridge and charge behind .223 and 5.56 is very similar -- much different than that behind a .22 bullet.
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#119916 - 20/10/2002 19:19 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12043
Loc: Sterling, VA
And about a real sniper wont leave any victis alive or he would shoot them in the head is totally wrong. A real sniper would shoot towards the chest and aim to the heart

Well, I'm not sure what experience or knowledge you're basing that on, but this latest shooting was in the gut, which isn't as critical an area. It takes a long time to die from a gut wound, I think.
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Matt

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#119917 - 21/10/2002 03:41 Re: sniper [Re: Dignan]
ilDuce
journeyman

Registered: 22/06/2002
Posts: 92
well.... I recieved alot of ansers..;) And about the Nato caliber, wich was what I was looking for. Thank you!

And as written I live in Sweden where the news about this is not as good as it should be. No real details, just the info about somebody being shot autside a school and so on. So my info about these shootings in themselves are pretty limited. I was talking about snipers in general.
I have about 1 year of military training here in Sweden. I had about 2 days worth of sniping exercise, so Im not that experienced.
And about injuring rather than killing. Well (I think) in most cases is that you are going after officers with the sniper. And its true you (if you wound them) that it takes alot of more manpower away from the action. But as it probably is an officer you would probably want him dead so he wont come back. But I guess thats a matter of opinion, anyway they dont shoot at the head wich was my point. And I dont think a bulletproof west would help that much against a 5.56 bullet. But I could be wrong about that.

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#119918 - 21/10/2002 04:13 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5572
Loc: London, UK
On the protective ability of bulletproof vests:

http://www.armocom.ru/English/classif.htm
http://www.nlectc.org/txtfiles/BodyArmorStd/NIJSTD010103.html

Basically, the best vest available is spec'ed to stop a 5.56 NATO round.

_________________________
-- roger

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#119919 - 21/10/2002 05:10 Re: sniper [Re: Roger]
ilDuce
journeyman

Registered: 22/06/2002
Posts: 92
I stand corrected.....

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#119920 - 21/10/2002 05:43 Re: sniper [Re: mschrag]
Dylan
addict

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
In reply to:

Of course your odds of dying are thousands of times higher just driving your car at all, but it's still creepy.




It's actually 4 times higher. We calculated it at work. I've told this to a lot of people and it's odd how comforting everyone finds it.

But I agree, it's scary regardless of the numbers. I have to get gas this morning and I must admit I'm nervous. I'm not one who typically gets flustered by news events but this one has me a bit shaken.

-Dylan

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#119921 - 21/10/2002 05:51 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Invade and surpress an entire country on behalf of what 1 renegade organisation did!!!!"

The taliban "suppressed" the afghani people. They also catered to terrorists and Osama Bin Laden was the commander of the taliban's military. We dropped off food and medical supplies to the afghani people and then killed the guys that were taking away their freedom. I'd say we helped them.

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#119922 - 21/10/2002 06:02 Re: sniper [Re: Roger]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Not to mention that it is illegal to own body armor in the US. It might actually just be illegal to wear it in public. And that might be local law, but still.
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Bitt Faulk

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#119923 - 21/10/2002 06:29 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
What????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

So in states with Open-Carry laws, it's legal to wear something that spits out a high velocity bit of semi-molten metal, but not to wear something to stop it? That's got to be just about the most arse-about-face thing I've ever heard.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#119924 - 21/10/2002 07:10 Re: sniper [Re: genixia]
BleachLPB
enthusiast

Registered: 01/11/2001
Posts: 354
Loc: Maryland
Local news agencies are reporting that police have surrounded a white van and made an arrest in Richmond...

Hopefully they got the SOB and this madness can end.
_________________________
BleachLPB ------------- NewFace MK2a

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#119925 - 21/10/2002 08:16 Re: sniper [Re: genixia]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, the idea is that no one would actually wear body armor unless they expected to be in a situation where they would need it, and the only such plausible situations are extraordinarily likely to be criminal.

However, I tend to agree, in that there are legitimate uses for body armor outside armed robbery and expected police shootouts, peace of mind in northern Virginia these days being one of them, hunting accidents being another, and I have major problems with laws that attempt to reinforce already-illegal acts by making illegal acts that might lead to them that also make illegal the same acts that wouldn't lead to illegality.

This one, in particular, I'm a little iffy about, because I can't imagine anyone actually using body armor in relation to non-illegal acts; I don't think that there are very many hunters out there that would wear body armor if it were available to them (not that I have a consensus on this), and I doubt that your average citizen would be willing to spend a thousand dollars to buy one for each member of the family when it's easier to just stay home.

In addition, I seem to have overstated it a little. It would appear that in many states it's illegal for felons to purchase body armor. In some states, it is illegal to purchase it at all. I believe that that is more accurate than my earlier statement.
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Bitt Faulk

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#119926 - 21/10/2002 08:22 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
In reply to:

reinforce already-illegal acts by making illegal acts that might lead to them that also make illegal the same acts that wouldn't lead to illegality.




Whaa? I think I know what you mean, but I can't follow that sentence. Must be nearly home time
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock

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#119927 - 21/10/2002 08:33 Re: sniper [Re: frog51]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2089
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
CNN appears to be reporting on an arrest - looks like they may have grabbed the sniper! You can tell I'm working hard:-)
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock

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#119928 - 21/10/2002 08:46 Re: sniper [Re: frog51]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4147
Loc: Cambridge, England
I have major problems with laws that attempt to reinforce already-illegal acts by making illegal acts that might lead to them that also make illegal the same acts that wouldn't lead to illegality.

You are Umberto Eco and I claim my five pounds.

Peter

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#119929 - 21/10/2002 08:50 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5572
Loc: London, UK
I have major problems with laws that attempt to reinforce already-illegal acts by making illegal acts that might lead to them that also make illegal the same acts that wouldn't lead to illegality.

Let me see if I can parse this:

Reinforcing already-illegal acts by making further acts (that might lead to these already-illegal acts) illegal is wrong when these laws also make these acts illegal in situations when they don't lead to one of the original illegal acts.

To suggest an example:

1. Bank robbers might use body armour.
2. So make body armour illegal.
3. Despite there being good (legal) reasons for wearing body armour.
4. and robbing banks already being illegal.

How am I doing?

_________________________
-- roger

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#119930 - 21/10/2002 09:34 Re: sniper [Re: peter]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I cannot believe that I wrote that sentence. It was even harder translating it from the Italian.
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Bitt Faulk

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#119931 - 21/10/2002 09:51 Re: sniper [Re: Roger]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    Let me see if I can parse this
Maybe I should diagram that sentence....

As I said, I'm a little up in the air on the body-armor issue, so let me use a different example that I and we are likely to have definitive views on.<ol type="1">
  • People ``stealing'' music might rip CDs
  • So make ripping CDs illegal
  • But empeggers rip their own CDs to make the music to which they own usage rights more accesible to themselves and no one else, which is certainly not illegal
  • ``stealing'' music is already illegal</ol>So why make ripping CDs illegal? Wasn't the illegality of ``stealing'' the music enough in the first place? Making ripping illegal is intended to compound upon ``stealing'' penalties. But it makes people who were infringing on no one else's rights criminals for no reason. And if the penalty for ``stealing'' music was not enough in the first place, then modify that law.

    On the other hand, handguns, for example, have no legitimate use outside of a firing range. In addition, making them illegal while in public stands the chance of preventing harm. So I cannot come up with a compelling reason that having a handgun outside a firing range (except for transport) should not be illegal. (I've got irrational problems with that argument, but it's a good counterpoint nonetheless. Also, this is not intended to start a gun control debate; it's just an example.)

    Edit: I just tried to diagram that, and it's very big. Nightmare, really. But rest assured that it's gramatically correct, even if it is impossible to read.


  • Edited by wfaulk (21/10/2002 10:04)
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    #119932 - 21/10/2002 10:37 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
    peter
    carpal tunnel

    Registered: 13/07/2000
    Posts: 4147
    Loc: Cambridge, England
    But rest assured that it's gramatically correct

    Oh, I wasn't questioning that. I even agree with the sentiment! I think the problem was that everyone first reads the three consecutive words "making illegal acts" as "committing illegal acts" not "making acts illegal", and only realises much later on that it was ambiguous and thus needs to be reparsed.

    Peter

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    #119933 - 21/10/2002 10:56 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
    Anonymous
    Unregistered


    "this is not intended to start a gun control debate"

    Well we can have a quick one. Don't you think defense is a legitimate use for handguns?

    On a side note, a friend of mine has an old kevlar vest and he has had people shoot him with a .22 while he is wearing it. I haven't tried it but he says you can barely feel it. He also draped it over a door and shot it with a 9mm - it stopped the bullet but it broke through the door.


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    #119934 - 21/10/2002 11:14 Re: sniper [Re: ]
    tfabris
    carpal tunnel

    Registered: 20/12/1999
    Posts: 31164
    Loc: Seattle, WA
    Sounds like a Darwin Award waiting to happen.
    _________________________
    Tony Fabris

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    #119935 - 21/10/2002 11:25 Re: sniper [Re: ]
    wfaulk
    carpal tunnel

    Registered: 25/12/2000
    Posts: 16706
    Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    Okay. This is all I'll say about guns: I think that handguns are largely evil. There is some legitimacy in using handguns for defense, but I think that you'll seldom find that a valid argument out on the streets somewhere -- only in the home. I don't believe that the same sort of gun control that works in the UK could work in the US based largely on the fact that the US is more spawling than the UK and the mindset of the average person is affected by that. It's also more difficult to police wide-open areas.

    Also, it's interesting to note that the standard sidearm for the US Army changed from a .38 revolver to the Model 1911 .45 semiautomatic when fighting the Moros in the Philippines. The reason for this is that the Moros would get into an altered state before battle and, essentially, the .38 bullets would pass through them unnoticed. The .45 bullets knocked them down, which is what it took to stop them.
    _________________________
    Bitt Faulk

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    #119936 - 21/10/2002 11:59 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
    ninti
    old hand

    Registered: 28/12/2001
    Posts: 868
    Loc: Los Angeles
    Actually, there is increasing amount of commentary that gun control isn't working in England very well anymore. England's crime rate is approaching that of America, and the ban on handguns is largly not affecting criminals.
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    Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB

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    #119937 - 21/10/2002 12:22 Re: sniper [Re: ]
    davec
    old hand

    Registered: 18/08/2000
    Posts: 992
    Loc: Georgetown, TX USA
    He also draped it over a door and shot it with a 9mm - it stopped the bullet but it broke through the door.

    The part of the body armour image Hollywood leaves out is that while it may "stop" the bullet, broken ribs and severe bruising are to be expected when bringing a bullet from 1500 fps muzzle velocity to a dead stop in less than a second. A .223 can do plenty of damage as their velocity is higher than say a .30-06, the standard cartridge of an M-1 Garand used in WWII and early part of the Korean War, which is bigger but slower. I've seen a .223 go in the chest of a deer and out the hindquarter before at over 100 yards.
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    Dave Clark Georgetown, Texas MK2A 42Gb - AnoFace - Smoke Lens - Dead Tuner - Sirius Radio on AUX

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    #119938 - 21/10/2002 12:41 Re: sniper [Re: davec]
    lectric
    pooh-bah

    Registered: 20/01/2002
    Posts: 2082
    Loc: New Orleans, LA
    For the record, the factory load .223 pushes about 3200 fps.

    http://www2.whidbey.com/deadeye/223Rifle.htm


    Edited by lectric (21/10/2002 12:48)

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    #119939 - 21/10/2002 12:47 Re: sniper [Re: lectric]
    davec
    old hand

    Registered: 18/08/2000
    Posts: 992
    Loc: Georgetown, TX USA
    For the record, the factory load .223 pushes about 3200 fps.

    Oops, it's been awhile, I switched to fishing, slightly less expensive.
    Either way, it'll probably bruise and break things even if it doesn't penetrate unless the target is at an extreme distance. Maybe I was thinking velocity at 100 yards or something like that.

    But in BF1942 headshots are the key...
    _________________________
    Dave Clark Georgetown, Texas MK2A 42Gb - AnoFace - Smoke Lens - Dead Tuner - Sirius Radio on AUX

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    #119940 - 21/10/2002 14:53 Re: sniper [Re: ]
    ilDuce
    journeyman

    Registered: 22/06/2002
    Posts: 92
    d33zY wrote: "The taliban "suppressed" the afghani people. They also catered to terrorists and Osama Bin Laden was the commander of the taliban's military. We dropped off food and medical supplies to the afghani people and then killed the guys that were taking away their freedom. I'd say we helped them."

    Then how come just about everybody hates your people in the middle east? Some people doesnt want to be "freed".
    I dont deny that they were in alot of misery. But you DID go over there and overthrew their government and put your own in their place. That is NOT good, that is not the democratic way. And the people who replaced the taliban regim isnt that better. And who can say that all afghani and talibans are pro terrorism. Sure, it was a good thing to drop off food and supplies. But ill bet the afghani people are no better off now. What you did was go in, kill alot of people and putting a government that ows USA alot of things. The civilians never win in war. Sure it helped USA in the short run, but you also made alot of people angry at the USA foreign policy! Wich I personally isnt very impressed by. Its a tragic how a world leading nation can be so behind in some things and so leading in others.

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