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#120031 - 24/10/2002 07:20 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
How have the communism gotten such a bad reputation over in the US

Iosif Dzhugashvili !

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#120032 - 24/10/2002 07:39 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fascism is connected to the right because back in the old days when republicanism was created somewhere in europe, people believed in social classes, and some of that still exists today, ie. KKK. I connect liberals with communism because most of them are for bigger government and socialism.

Ilduce, I don't like communism or socialism or fascism, because the more rights that you give the government, the less you have for yourself. The government shouldn't control the people; the people should control the government.

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#120033 - 24/10/2002 08:45 Re: sniper [Re: peter]
revlmwest
addict

Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
A good look at the Josephite movement will show a group of "organized" (man that term is evil, a necessary one though) believers that were far from self righteous. Most of them died for their faith, soon after the communist revolution in Russia. They are the unknown martyrs of their generation.

Secondly the Christian religion is based on infused righteousness. Anyone practicing self righteousness is at best worthy of discipline and at worst a lying hypocrite in the very eyes of organized religion.
_________________________
Michael West

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#120034 - 24/10/2002 09:13 Re: sniper [Re: revlmwest]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    Anyone practicing self righteousness is at best worthy of discipline and at worst a lying hypocrite in the very eyes of organized religion.
If there were more people like you around representing Christianity, and religion in general, I wouldn't be so opposed to it.

However, you seem to be the exception more than the rule. At the extremes, you've got people like Jerry Falwell, who seems to embody the idea of self-righteousness. And, unfortunately, most people I've found that refer to themselves as Christians (I live in the South, so there's not much around in the way of other religions), while not to that extreme, tend to fall into the realm of self-righteousness bolstered by the idea that their religion proves that they're right about everything. I realize that most Christians are not parts of that group (my mother springs to mind), but they really are a silent majority. If I were inclined to believe in a supreme being, which I'm largely not, I'd definitely not want to be associated with any of these groups.

And at least I'm up front with the fact that my self-righteousness and pedantism is based on bullheadedness and arrogance.

It's not so much that I'm opposed to religion as that I'm opposed to organized religion, as it seems to tend to create followers. We need more leaders.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#120035 - 24/10/2002 11:50 Re: sniper [Re: frog51]
ninti
old hand

Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
Well, back to the sniper. So they grabbed two guys, and found a rifle, scope, and tripod in their car. It's looking good that this may actually be the guy this time.

And here is related political cartoon that I thought was quite good.
_________________________
Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB

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#120036 - 24/10/2002 12:48 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
revlmwest
addict

Registered: 05/06/2002
Posts: 497
Loc: Hartsville, South Carolina for...
[thinks to self] ughh... Falwell....[\thinks to self] Sadly my denomination is clouded with individuals who I can mostly agree with, but who's ability to communicate truth in useful ways is equivalent to that of a head of lettuce.
_________________________
Michael West

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#120037 - 24/10/2002 13:09 Re: sniper [Re: revlmwest]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Just for the record, I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, and I've seen the SBC go from a reasonable organization intended to help distribute money in useful ways by conglomeration to a near-fascist organization that's much more interested in keeping their constituent churches under their thumb. But, then again, my viewpoint early on was as a kid, so I may not have been privy to as much as I think I remember.

(BTW, my former dentist of over twenty years is your avatar's son-in-law. I had to get a new one recently when it turned out that he's not really a very good dentist. He and his wife and two daughters used to go to my church, too. Left around the time I think those chages I referenced above really started to hit.)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#120038 - 24/10/2002 13:12 Re: sniper [Re: ninti]
butter
enthusiast

Registered: 07/03/2002
Posts: 211
Loc: State side
Why hasn't Bush spoke about this sniper much? He has been "bullying" congress to spend millions of dollars on our "Homeland Security". Last time I checked all of these murders happened in the United States and dealt with security. Kind of intresting he hasn't said a thing about them, maybe he will now because the suspects last name is Muhammed and all of his aides can spin that to make it look like he was a foreign terrorist.
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Tobin
Mark IIa - 60gb - Smoke
[blue]fitter, happier, more productive[/blue]

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#120039 - 24/10/2002 13:45 Re: sniper [Re: butter]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
They are clearly saying he was not affiliated with a terrorist group. He was sympathetic with the 9/11 terrorists but he acted independently. He does however have a connection to the Nation of Islam. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Don't you know this will have the professional profilers scratching their heads.

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#120040 - 24/10/2002 13:46 Re: sniper [Re: blitz]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
You mean the Farrakhan Nation of Islam?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#120041 - 24/10/2002 14:05 Re: sniper [Re: wfaulk]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Yep.

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#120042 - 24/10/2002 16:06 Re: sniper [Re: butter]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Why hasn't Bush spoke about this sniper much?

I rarely miss an opportunity to deride our light-headed chief executive, and it seems like Shrub *is* always on the lookout for an opportunity to take a "pass" on issues (say, the Middle East, for example) when it would be easier to go to the ranch in Crawford.

That being said, this situation was probably a no-win from an executive branch perspective -- they could be criticized for not intervening enough or for intervening too much. The Feds track record of being perceived as riding roughshod over local law enforcers is long and negative. They probably wanted to avoid that given the many other bruises they've suffered lately.

Sounds like some opportunities were missed and mistakes made WRT to the sniper/s, but the continuity of having Moose as the clear spokesman was a good thing IMO.

Anyhow, it looks as if my prediction that the killer would not be caught was, thankfully, wrong. I wish I could feel better that it hasn't given other wackos some ideas or that the capture was the result of stellar police work; if the killers hadn't essentially begged to be caught and (more or less) turned themselves in, I fear they could still be out there.

Sick.


Edited by jimhogan (24/10/2002 17:48)
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#120043 - 24/10/2002 17:42 Re: sniper [Re: jimhogan]
ilDuce
journeyman

Registered: 22/06/2002
Posts: 92
well..... FerretBoy..... personally regarding your thoughts about political extremes, I totally agree with you. Both ways.
Any extreme ideology wouldnt work because of the human nature. Selfishness is the lead word here. In communism you do not want to work alot and still make the same money as someone who doesnt. And in Capitalism is very weak against corruption, were CEO:s gain alot of power and combine that with corruption and you have a pretty mess. Maybe the only ideology that could work is Anarchy, provided that people grow into it and are not raised with societys laws of helping other. That would probably be impossible as every other ideology. (Not that I think Anarchy is good. But you have to think objectively at this)

And wfaulk, your theory about the left vs right isnt flawless I must say. As I have come to understand it (Now all the Germans out there can correct me if I´m wrong) After WW1, wich Germany lost a great deal in. Poverty and starvation fallowed. The people where screaming for change (Note that this puts them on the left side) And now Hitler came forward, declaring that he alone could end hunger and poverty, restore the deutsch glory (He was also supported by some officials giving him more credibility) AS you probably know he was a good speaker and in those days he didnt speak as much about war and all the rest evil actions he commited. So he was elected (The officials where glad since they thought they had raised a puppet that they could controll. they were greiviosly mistaken)

Thats what Ive been told in school what happened so i guess thats somewhat the true story. But it wasnt exactly yesterday so I could be wrong.

So my qustion still stands unanswered (I believe). How come the faschists have been put to the right wing? I think they are much more related to pure communism than to Anarchy. ("Strong Government" vs "No Government")
Allthough as closest Ive been to ansering this question is as fallows:
What if this line (Left vs Right) doesnt show government status. But it shows market value or bussines value (Dont know what you would call it, but I´ll explain)
To the left you have the government controlling bussiness. No privately owned companies and no real money making. Since all the profit go to paying as much salory and taxes as possible. And on the right side you have a big private sector wich means anybody can start their own bussiness and make personal profit. The Government can still be strong on the right side. But it doesnt invade on the market.
I dont know exactly how the Nazi government handled bussiness so I could be out on a limb here. But I think this is probably the most logical answer to my question. Unless its as i suspect that people just havent been thinking on what exactly they are saying. And I havent been able to find an exact definition of what this line represents. And until I do, this question can never be answered.

And regarding religion. And Christianity in regard. I dont agree at all with most of the organisations. I am an agnostic (close to atheist) wich I believe means that I dont belive in anything but I hope and would be pleasantly surprised if God really existed. I believe in science and on the dark and sad beliefe that nothing means anything. We are not here for any reason. We are just coincidence and we or anything dont mean [censored]. Its just a bunch of matter (dont know the correct bending, or if its the correct word at all [materia]) and energy flowing in a bunch of space. No one watches over us. But as I said, IF there were a God, I would be glad.
The thing that pisses me off (ohh boy..... now im going to get alot of angry people after me) is the hipocracy of most of the Christian organisations. Believing in God has NOTHING to do with big churches with gold and Fat priests saying I have the blessings of God and so on. Beliefe lies in the heart, and believing you are doing the right thing. To go and have a confession or recieve a bunch of bread and wine does not help me at all if i did something wrong. As it says in the evangelium of Tomas, beliefe lies in each mans heart. And in the eyes of God The big Church doesnt matter. (This wasnt a quote)
Perhaps I should say that Tomas is in fact Judas and is known for betraying Jesus Christ. Tomas himself says that Jesus told him to. The evangelium of Tomas was taken away from the bible (I think it was in year 1500 or so) Since it didnt ad up with the Christian beliefs of big churches and sucking out alot of money from people so that priests could live like kings.

Maybe I am a little religious after all. I try to fallow the commandments as good as i can, as I think they are good guidelines for humans regardless of religious beliefe. And searching through my heart I can only find one thing that I feel would be considered as a sin. I once a few years ago hurt someone verbaly on intention. I try not to kill any animal even if its a spider or a bug. I catch them and let them out the window. Beacuse I thinks its utterly unnecisary. The amount of energy that it takes for me to carry a bug outside is worth its life. Its such a small task for me. But means so much for him.

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#120044 - 24/10/2002 21:43 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nazi Germany had a capitalist economy.

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#120045 - 25/10/2002 02:54 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
So my qustion still stands unanswered (I believe). How come the faschists have been put to the right wing?

Because, I think, like "communism", the word is no longer used in its original meaning. In the US, even the proletariat opposes communism, because to them it means totalitarianism, atheism, and anti-Americanism. Likewise, and not just in the US this time, everyone opposes fascism because to them it means totalitarianism, invading everyone, and massacring Jews.

Unsurprisingly, what with all the invading and massacring, everyone has forgotten that fascism was originally quite a good socialist agrarian reform policy, and both Hitler and Mussolini (who always seemed less enthusiastic about the invading and massacring anyway) had hugely beneficial effects on their countries' economies before they went berserk.

The evangelium of Tomas was taken away from the bible (I think it was in year 1500 or so)

Probably more like 400? The apocryphal gospels often make cracking reading ("Woe to you for the wheel that turns in your minds!") but if you read enough of them it's clear that they cover a huge metaphysical range, and clear that the Christian church as we know it today was defined more by the councils that canonised the, er, canon, twelve generations after the fact, than it was by Jesus of Nazareth.

I try to fallow the commandments as good as i can, as I think they are good guidelines for humans regardless of religious beliefe.

Me too. So long as religion is basically a trick to make people do good when they otherwise wouldn't, I think it does have a place in sufficiently primitive societies. It's when religion starts to be about accruing vapourware afterlife benefits by doing things that increase human suffering (or decrease human happiness) in this life, that it stops being a Good Thing.

Despite the impression people might have got so far, I'm not really anti-religious. I'm not anti- anything that's harmless. (And you only have to read this book to realise that it's a terrible shame when a religion dies out altogether.) It's only when religion isn't harmless that I'm against it.

Peter

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#120046 - 25/10/2002 04:06 Re: sniper [Re: peter]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
a (presumably) rich bored white male

Oh well, I guess at least I got one out of four.

Peter

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#120047 - 25/10/2002 05:41 Re: sniper [Re: ilDuce]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
"The thing that pisses me off (ohh boy..... now im going to get alot of angry people after me) is the hipocracy of most of the Christian organisations."

I don't think you're going to get a lot of people mad at you for that statement here!

While I think that everyone has some hypocrisy, Christians seem to have a knack for outdoing the masses. This is a very tragic thing to me because our hypocrisy (and I know that I'm not innocent in this) only serves to hide what I consider to be the ultimate truth. The point was made earlier in this thread that though there are a few people who make Christianity look attractive, there are others who more visibly turn people away.

"Believing in God has NOTHING to do with big churches with gold and Fat priests saying I have the blessings of God and so on. "

Phrased that way I would agree with you. However, there is value in worship and the obedience of God in the ways that he has instructed us to approach him (which have nothing to do with gold, or Fat priests, etc.). Such traditions as the Lords Supper however, have great meaning, though not tied to earning favor in the eyes of God. They are designed to know and commune with God (hence the name “Communion”). Even the sacrificial system found in the Old Testament was designed for the purpose of knowing God more fully.

I realize that the general feeling here is that “organized” religions are largely traditions that have been created by man, probably for the purpose of controlling other men (and women). I think the real questions are, were we created by a God (and I believe that we were), and did He in His creation desire us to know and enjoy Him? If all religions are simply traditions, then the answer to this question is “no”, but I believe that God had a more personal interest in His creation. There is still the issue beyond this of: “Ok, if God is meant to be known, in which religion did He reveal Himself? Maybe it was little bit in all of them?” The problem is, that when you get to the real issues of who God is in any tradition, the contradictions with others become apparent (is a relationship with God found by doing good, His grace and pleasure, complete chance and luck, etc.). I believe that Christianity holds the answer to all of these questions, and that our worship practices have great value in knowing God more fully. Unfortunately, even these practices have been turned for use against fellow man.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#120048 - 25/10/2002 07:30 Re: sniper [Re: peter]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
    everyone has forgotten that fascism was originally quite a good socialist agrarian reform policy
First, let's assume that Mussolini effectively coined the term Fascist. (His ``original'' political party (he had earlier been a fairly high-ranking member of the Italian Socialist party), the Fascisti, is what the term is based on.) It seems apparent from Mussolini's history, both before and after his rise to power, that he didn't have any cohesive plan. It was all based on immediate opportunism. It would seem that the term Fascism has been placed on nationalist totalitarian regimes because of what it quickly developed into after Victor Emmanuel presented Mussolini dictatorial powers to run Italy. I think it gained a fairly precise generic definition precisely because it was so amorphous before, whereas Naziism was very precise from the get-go.

In reality, that form of government wasn't so bad other than Mussolini's odd forays into expansionism, probably largely because the Italians were simply not going to have any of that oppression, so it just didn't happen. And I think that it might have lasted a much longer time if it hadn't gotten caught up with the Nazis. Of course, the factors that led to the rise of both the Fascists and the Nazis are almost all derived from the Treaty of Versailles, so it was probably inevitable.
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Bitt Faulk

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#120049 - 25/10/2002 08:56 Re: sniper [Re: peter]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Oh well, I guess at least I got one out of four

Unless you consider you left off the "s".

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#120050 - 25/10/2002 14:46 Re: sniper [Re: JeffS]
ilDuce
journeyman

Registered: 22/06/2002
Posts: 92
FerretBoy..... well.... As you say, I think religion is the product of tradition and culture. In the west you put your insecurity into an entity (God). I think this is pretty expleinatory for our culture. We tend to look at external wrongings. Its rarely our own fault. So we put our trust into a being. Its the will of God and so on. Its not MY fault. The eastern culture is more aimed at going "inside" with your thoughts and concerns. Trying to ignore the external faults. And whoops, we have bhuddism. Wich strives to totally ignore everything external. To achieve, Nirvana.
I know this is not exactly the history of bhuddism but I´m trying to show the relationship between culture and religion.
Now, essantially all major religions aim at one thing.
Bliss. (I hope that is the correct word)
They aim at being happy. (Good people go to heaven, where everybody is happy and no "external" prolems exist anymore. Or Nirvana, where nothing exists anymore.)

I know this is simplyfying alot. And I believe that everything can be simplified into 2 things. Two opposits. Something like bhuddism perhaps. Yin and yang. And if you think about it everything can be devided.
And it is as it says in The wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. "The wave corrects itself". If you have a child that is rough and wild, he will become calm later, and vice versa. And the more I think about this, you can find the same pattern in everything. Maybe with a splash of the multitude of the human personalety required from The Diceman by Luke Rhineheart.


Ohh... damn.... I got a little off track here, as always..=)
Everywhere people are trying to reach happyness. Then of course one might say that you use the church as a tool to obtain some of this happiness. Then who am I to say that this is wrong. I personnally think that we dont need to go to church and look for happiness. We can find it everywhere, anytime.
As a side note, I think that everybody should read "The Diceman" by Luke Rhineheart. Because it says alot about the human nature. And you will learn ALOT about yourself. One must try to look past the dice throwing part of it, and see WHY.....

I have tooooooo many theories. And few answers... I cant wait to die so that I finally can get an answer!!...=))) The worst thing i know is Not knowing! =)))

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#120051 - 26/10/2002 00:54 Re: sniper [Re: RobotCaleb]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin

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