On the theory that the empeg-bbs crowd is a perfect sounding board for all manner of technical questions... here goes:

I'm specing out a shared lab space for the systems graduate students here at Rice. We're in the process of demolishing the wall between two former student offices to create a larger work space. There are various goals for this space:

- create community (bring students together to work in the lab, etc.)
- have state-of-the-art machines (suitable for performing experiments)
- help attract new students (when they see the cool toys)

To that end, the general idea floating around my head is to buy a stack of Dell machines with 20" flat panel displays and gig-ethernet connections. Then toss a bunch of Xerox PARC-esque modern beanbag chairs, made with nice cloth and styrofoam, as opposed to vinyl and beans. And, to wrap it up, a video projector, and maybe some speakers.

One decision I find I need to make is between tiny desktop machines like the Dell Optiplex SX260 (built largely with laptop parts) and fancy "workstation" machines like the Dell Precision Workstation 350n minitower. The SX260, with a 3GHz P4 (but apparently no hyperthreading), 512MB RAM, 40GB disk, a CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive, and the 20" flat panel is only $2350 (fyi: the 20" flat panel is only $869 more than the no-monitor option). The 350n workstation with a similar configuration is $2850; it allows for hyper-threading and has (arguably) faster RAMBUS memory with ECC, plus you can get bigger/faster hard drives, video cards, etc.

The trade-off here is between performance and size (and some extra dollars, but that's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things). On one hand, I want smaller and quieter machines to make for a more inviting environment. On the other hand, I want raw power, since there are people around here who will use it. For quietness, I've just been blown away by Dell's acoustic engineering, although I'm open to other suggestions.

A second orthogonal issue is what we want these machines to run. My natural tendency is to go with Linux on the bare metal, then VMware Workstation with WinXP, so people can do PowerPoint or whatnot. I've chatted with the local sysadms, and they're reasonably happy with a setup like that. Another way of structuring it would be with WinXP on the bottom, then Linux above it. It's uglier to administrate, but it may be better if people want to run snazzy games (which I may or may not want to encourage...).

So... please jump in with your opinions on what makes for a good computer lab. If you were going to spend several years of your life in a room full of machines, what features would you want to make that space more livable?

Aeron chairs. They'll outlast any PC or beanbag chairs you may get. You're on track wanting quiet machines too. I'll leave the computer questions to those more opinionated than myself. Comfy chairs & a quiet room is my vote.

-Zeke

On the theory that the empeg-bbs crowd is a perfect sounding board for all manner of technical questions...

Theory? That's an axiom by now, isn't it?

First off, you're missing the key ingredient -- beer on tap.

The one thing I think you should consider is that if you're doing the VMware thing, get a PC with a dual head graphics card and two monitors. Dual flat panel monitors could make the cost per seat go way up, but then you can run the VMware XP guest on its own monitor and do Linux stuff on the other. Dual head graphics cards could also be real sweet for some games that can take advantage of multiple monitors. Not that you're encouraging that type of thing....

I've never used VMware for Linux, but I do run a Linux guest in VMware for Windows. This is due to my recently-discussed... uh... disgust... for Linux GUI's. But it sounds like your guys are using Linux more than XP, so make them Linux machines and have XP in a VMware window.

The other option is to intermingle both configurations (XP on Linux and Linux on XP) but that might deliniate the lab and take away from that "community" atmosphere you want. The kegerator will help take care of that, though.

Beer. The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.

Well, the student bar is in the building next door, so it's not like cheap beer is too far away.

Dual monitors are sexy, of course, but they chew up valuable desk real-estate. I'd probably loose 1/3 of the available seating space to larger machine spacing. Instead, I'm looking at 20" monster LCDs (particularly at these amazing prices).

I'm an undergrad at Berkeley, so of course I've got some opinions.
I have to wonder if the number one goal here isn't attracting new students... Be warned fancy computers look like old slow computers very quickly.

My favorite labs to actually work in are our SunRay thinclient labs, solely based on the fact that the machines are silent. They aren't just quiet. No hard drive, no fans, no noise.

All the grad students here work on laptops. Virtually none of the undergrads do. I'm not sure, why, or if your dynamics are the same. Nothing makes a laptop more practical than 802.11b wireless. And power outlets.

Bean bag chairs would make it dificult to type while using a computer. Flat panel displays are nice to look at. Good keyboards that you budget to replace frequently are important.

Music in a lab is counterproductive. At any given time half of the people will hate what's playing. Any while we're at it, kill the damn PC speaker that beeps whenerver you tab-complete something in bash.

Can you avoid flourescent lighting? It'd be nice if you could.

It seems we're talking more of a break room than a place to really get stuff done. To that end, table space without computers on it is important. So is allowing food. (You'll have to replace those aforementioned keyboards a bit faster, but who cares).

Computer wise, I'd personally spend half that amount, and buy brand new ones in two years. The difference between 3 and 2 Ghz is rarely noticable, and intel charges more than a PC should cost these days for their top of the line processor.

Well, that's all for now. I'll chime in later if I think of anything.

Matthew

Go with optical mice. Yeah, I know it sounds flashy and more expensive - but one of the things I hated most about using mice in my school's lab is they got filled up with so much gunk sometimes the mouse would move very erratically. Unknowing lay-users wouldn't realize the mouse was dirty, and instead think that the erratic movement on the screen was because the computer was too slow. Then they would complain that the computers were too slow. I'm not kidding. So getting optical mice holds a practical aspect.

Oh, and I hardly see the point of running gigabit to the desktop. I can't possibly think of what application would use that much bandwidth on the client side. Unless if you plan to be running an mp3 ftp server, of course... by all means. Otherwise, thats like running a water main to serve a lawn sprinkler.

I can't possibly think of what application would use that much bandwidth on the client side.

Personally, I have never, ever, in all my life, used the phrase 'I have too much bandwidth'....

The 20" flat panel was $760 from Dell yesterday, FWIW.

Personally, I have never, ever, in all my life, used the phrase 'I have too much bandwidth'....

100mb to a PDA is probably sufficient

Ok, drop everything and bring you and your budget to UT Dallas. ;-)

Disclaimer: Im a grad student at UTD.

As far as the speed of the machines go, I would get the fast ones and maybe go to the trouble of outfitting them with quieter fans/heatsinks and barracuda HDs. Its important for the machines to be somewhat quiet.

Sean

Naah....save the cash and stick with ball mice. Remember that desirable mice are rather easy to disconnect and stick in a backpack. Besides which, if a systems grad student doesn't know how to clean a mouse, then he/she deserves all the grief that the mouse gives them.

Heck, don't even bother with mice. Call it an initiative test.

Gigabit? When I started at uni, one of the three 'Computer Network Labs' didn't even have a network. Apparently there wasn't a staff member that had the time to set it up and install it.

Another lab had just been upgraded to UTP from co-ax and a lecturer went on for most of an hour on how this was better and showed how the university was slowly but surely updating its computer facilities.

All the labs had basic PCs supplied by local system builders (same as most UK schools). Quite a few had CD writers, but only because they were as cheap as read-only drives. All monitors were cheap and nasty and did my eyes in. Proper desks were rare, so if you got a 17" monitor it was at the expense of space for the keyboard and mouse.

Wireless networks were non-existent - that would actually provide the students with a useful resource and we can't have that. Although to be fair, so few students had laptops or could afford to put a wireless card in them anyway that it wasn't worth it.

Can you even buy ball mice any more? Last time I was looking for a mouse in a store the whole selection of a dozen or so models were optical. The option seemed to be wireless or not.

I have get a Poof Chair for the office, though

Rob

It think the newest choice is red or blue light

Aren't the biggest factors here the budget and how many computers you need/can fit in?
It's 'only' a student lab. Spend the bucks on a decent server box. the next big thing might be the service contract you'll get with what option.
Who signs the check for all this? What is the lab for? If it's experimenting with hardware, don't spend too much on it.
Can you give some more information on this project?

Aren't the biggest factors here the budget and how many computers you need/can fit in?

I'm not saying that we're dripping in money or anything, but we've got more than plenty of equipment money budgeted for this. We're more constrained on space to fit the machines than in the capital costs of purchasing them.

It's 'only' a student lab. Spend the bucks on a decent server box. the next big thing might be the service contract you'll get with what option.

We've got a machine room, next door, with lots of loud servers and experimental hardware (the biggest box is an Alpha with some 10GB or so of RAM). The point of this particular lab is to create a comfortable space where people want to go to work together. As a side effect, if we can make it comfortable for hanging out and having spontaneous meetings (with the poof chairs) and useful for practicing talks (with the video projector), then that's all the better.

I expect that half of what these machines will do is run LaTeX, PowerPoint, and similarly non-demanding tasks. Of course, we do lots of peer-to-peer systems research here, so the gigabit ethernet and spare hard disk space will likely get put to good use. (Dell's OptiPlex machines all come with gig-e built in, just like Apple's machines, so why not use it?)

Who signs the check for all this? What is the lab for? If it's experimenting with hardware, don't spend too much on it. Can you give some more information on this project?

The checks are being signed by me and one other professor. This is meant to be a general-purpose user-friendly lab, thus the emphasis on nice monitors and quiet machines.

If space is such a premium, have you considered the integrated flat panel PCs? I can't remember who makes them or spec's, but since you have a server room with plenty of Oomph in it, I don't think you really need 3GHz PCs anyway. You might want to remember that the more powerful the CPU, the bigger and louder the fan needed to keep it cool. (Although Dell machines are generally pretty quiet).

I'm an undergrad at Berkeley, so of course I've got some opinions.

Go Bears! (I'm Cal, class of '93.) Did I mention that we're always looking for good grad students?

My favorite labs to actually work in are our SunRay thinclient labs

It's cool that you just stick your smartcard in wherever and poof, there's your session again. However, the SunRay boxes I've played with are just dog slow, plus they don't support resolutions over 1280x1024. Other `thin client' solutions (e.g., NCD NC900's) seem similarly lame. These new Dell boxes are more than quiet enough; you have to stick your ear practically right next to the back to hear anything, and they're general purpose boxes. You can strip a Dell down to the point where it costs barely more than a thin client, if you really want.

All the grad students here work on laptops. Virtually none of the undergrads do. I'm not sure, why, or if your dynamics are the same. Nothing makes a laptop more practical than 802.11b wireless. And power outlets.

We have all that, but here people seem to prefer working in their offices. You can be more productive on a real keyboard with a bigger monitor and a nice office chair. (The poof chairs wouldn't necessarily be for "working", although I can see people using laptops there.)

It seems we're talking more of a break room than a place to really get stuff done. To that end, table space without computers on it is important. So is allowing food. (You'll have to replace those aforementioned keyboards a bit faster, but who cares).

Food isn't going to be a problem. Spare table space is an interesting thought. I'll have to think about that.

Personally, I have never, ever, in all my life, used the phrase 'I have too much bandwidth'....

I guess I should clarify myself and say that there is nothing wrong with running gig to the desktop - I guess I mentioned it more in the light of trying to save a few bucks. It still seems like overkill (cost/benefit wise), but hey, if Apple is throwing Gig cards in their Macs - then what are we waiting for? If someone plopped a gig card in my machine I wouldn't complain!

Definitely spend your money on getting quieter machines though, and good, crisp displays, and probably dimmable, non Fluorescent lighting. Paying correct attention to these attributes will contribute to the overall comfort of the environment (especially the poof chairs).

There should be a hot Nacho cheese dispenser (with chips) and a beer tap at each station.

It think the newest choice is red or blue light

Oooh, they have blue-LED mice now? Gimme gimme gimme gimme!

have you considered the integrated flat panel PCs?

I guess that would be the Apple iMac, the Dell SX260 (with matching funky monitor stand), or the Gateway Profile4. My main gripe with the Gateway and Apple is the smaller monitors. The main problem with the Dell SX260 is that they only offer a 5400rpm 40GB disk. The Dell GX260 small form factor version is slightly larger, offering an 7200rpm 80GB disk, yet it still can potentially stand behind the monitor, saving space.

I want to have enough space in there for a full Linux installation, and a full WinXP/OfficeXP installation via VMware. 40GB on the smaller boxes is pushing it, but I think 80GB gives us some headroom.

Tony, since you're able to do the illuminated buttons-soldering, you shouldn't have any problems changing the led in an optical mouse yourself... I exchanged the leds on a Micro$oft Intellimouse Explorer with blue leds. The only problem was that I didn't use a super-duper-hyper-bright led for the rear one, so it loks like it is off unless you lift it up...

Stig

Interesting. I thought that the internal sensing electronics in the mouse would have been tuned to perform best at a certain wavelength.

Interesting. I thought that the internal sensing electronics in the mouse would have been tuned to perform best at a certain wavelength.

Ah, but he didn't actually say whether the rodent still worked after it's surgery, did he ?

Still working. It's the mouse I use on this computer. and I haven't noticed any reduced sensitivity or any other ill-effects.

Stig

I guess I should clarify myself and say that there is nothing wrong with running gig to the desktop - I guess I mentioned it more in the light of trying to save a few bucks.

The price problem with Gigabit ethernet these days isn't so much the NIC as the switch. Generally, you'll find that gigE switches with any sort of density are going to be in the neighborhood of $100 per port.

My main gripe with the Gateway and Apple is the smaller monitors.

iMacs with bigger LCDs seem pretty likely at MacWorld next month...

just get a bunch of these to go with your computers.

Gotta love pixels 2mm high.

~4' high screen, 600 vertical = 0.08" ~2mm

-Zeke

Yeah, but they only have a VGA version. Now, if it had a DVI input, then we'd be talking!