I'm really tempted to invest in one and have some questions.

[irrelevant fish story]

Twenty-something years ago I hooked up with 3 women (nurses I worked on a psych ward with) and rented a 4-bedroom house in Boston. We were very excited by the setup for a while, but it didn't take long for things to go downhill -- we essentially divided up into two 2-person teams to fight over where the thermostat should be set and lots of other things.

On the other team was a woman I'll call Lisa. One of the passions she brought to the house was a 6-foot-long salt water fish tank that I could literally lie down in. After moving in, she spent a great amount of time setting it up before driving out Route 9 to Framingham to buy a large stock of fish.

But Lisa was what I would call a moody (bipolar seems to be the fashionable label) person. You could gauge the regular waveform of her moods from the fish tank. As the wave descended below the midline, we'd come home and find 1 dead fish. When the wave touched its lowest point, I'd come home from a night shift and find that *all* the fish were dead.

As the mood wave rose above the midpoint, Lisa would get some cash and drive to Framingham to buy a new fish family. And so this cycle repeated several times over the course of about 9 months until our lease expired...

[/irrelevant fish story]

My memory is that they were expensive little buggers and that they were very sensitive to slight fluctuation in water characteristics and various infections. When I see a big salt water tank in a restaurant or the lobby of a building and all the fish are happy, I just assume that those tanks are under the care of a professional service.

unless you have kept fresh water fish for a while i would not even thing about it as the water quality is real tricky to handle.

They look stunning but are difficult to keep but here is a few tips

Buy the biggest tank you can get your hands on as larger volume means more stability

read shed loads about it, saltwater tropicals ain't goldfish

don't put the empeg in the tank

start saving they are expensive little fuckers

But if still want to go for it get some tropical fresh water fish i used to keep them but the job kind of gets in the way a lot of the stuff you get for fresh water fish can be used with salt water

unless you have kept fresh water fish for a while i would not even thing about it as the water quality is real tricky to handle.


Yep, a freshwater tank is to a marine tank as a Neo is to an Empeg.
One you just 'stock and go', the other requires a much bigger investment of time and effort to get the best results. Of course, the analogy doesn't just stop with the effort...a well kept marine tank is a captivating blaze of colour and action that (IMO) far surpasses that attainable with a freshwater tank.

My dad kept freshwater fish for about 20 years before switching to marine fish, and still had fun and games. A few years back he had a bizarre experience with his marine tank.
After a successful few years of operation, fish started randomly dying and sometimes disappearing. He spent 6 months basically restocking the tank with a new fish every 2-3 weeks, only to see it die or disappear a short while later. He triple-checked everything; water quality, temperature, circulation, aeration, filterage, etc, even going as far as replacing components even though they looked fine, all to no avail.

Then one day he saw it. A praying mantis, living in one of the rocks. It was still only little, but had been feeding quite happily on the fish. Needless to say, that rock was soon removed, and the fish stopped disappearing. It was fortunate that he found it while it was still small - an adult mantis would have had no problem smashing the 1/2 inch thick glass, and that would have been *really* expensive.

I'm not trying to put you off of the idea, but just trying to make sure your eyes are open...go to your local library and check out a couple of books on the subject. It may be an idea to also check out a book dealing with freshwater fish as well - it'll give you an idea of the similarities and differences.

an adult mantis would have had no problem smashing the 1/2 inch thick glass

What kind of freaky 50s-scifi-mutant praying mantis is this?

[Homer]
Doh!
[/Homer]

I meant the Mantis Shrimp, of course, since Praying Mantis's can't swim.

I'm obviously still suffering from jet-lag, and in need of more caffeine.

I'm really tempted to invest in one and have some questions

Unless you have experience setting up and keeping a freshwater tank - I would hold off or go freshwater first. Get the biggest tank you can afford though... I got my 125 gallon freshwater setup for around $1200. The filter alone was around $250 or so - I recommend Eheim filters.

Find a store near you and talk to some people. Also, you can find some good deals for stuff at big als online

The fish are (usually) the cheapest part. Its tons of fun and worth the effort!

Saltwater tanks are beautiful, but they are extremely sensitive to many different water qualtiy dimensions, most of which have long time constants. It is not just about the chemicals taking time to dissolve. It is a living *system* with complex interactions that show up as long term trends. There are many different adjustments and any of them are suseptible to over control. Diagnosis can be tricky, and reaching a relativly stable equilibrium can be time consuming. Most people seem to over control their tank and kill all of the inhabitants. Disease can also be an issue especially when introducing new fish, but IMHO, not knowing how to work with gradual, long time contstant changes is the bigger problem.

Certain marine animals, notably octopi, are so sensitive to water qualtiy it is almost impossible to keep one. A good dealer will know which animals are easiest to keep (generally, docile and less sensitive to slight changes in water quality).

People also get too many fish for their tank. Salt water fish require substantially more space than most fresh water fish, and the requirement is often expressed in "inches per gallon", which is how many inches of fish length each gallon in the tank can support. It is a surprisingly small number, which (I'm guessing) is why others have said to get the largest tank you can possibly afford.

You need to carefully consider which animals will be in your tank. It is *very* easy to get a combination of animals that will not peacefully coexist, as was mentioned earlier in the story about the crab. The classic combination of clown/anenomie is wonderful and they work together beautifully. Other great combinations are out there.

Let's see...other thoughts: do your research and find a dealer that only does marine aquariums and has been in business for a long time.

Find and read: Nick Dakin's "The book of the Marine Aquarium", which is the bible of the subject.

Finally, choose either a reef tank or a fish tank. Although it is possible to have both types of animals in one tank (and they are stunning), it practically requires a degree in marine biology. I'm not kidding. A "reef tank" is a tank which contains "live rock" which is living coral and other invertebrates.

I don't do this any more because I like to travel and I don't like all of the maintenance and cleaning. You can pretty much forget about an away from home vacation of any length. If you are a neat freak, don't travel, can comprehend complex, multivariable, long time constant systems, and are willing to read and study, then it can be really awesome. I once had a blue damsel that would eat from my hand. Because they are so beautiful, I find it much easier to become attached to marine fish than fresh.

FWIW,

Jim

This board never fails to amase me somone always knows something


P.S. anyone built solar panals for heating water my father waants to try it

Wow. Thanks.

So i picked up a 20 gallon acrylic tank. I"m planning on getting a fish only tank -- you're statement about needing a marine biology degree is right now, they are just too much. I'm not gonna toss the fish in for a couple of weeks as i'd like to get the water just right first. Hopefully, my first new friend will be this guy.

"you are statement about needing"?

Great, you Bitted him. Now he'll be twice shy.

Well, he could edit his post and remove the mistake, too; Then I'd look silly

Apostrophe misuse and homonym abuse push my buttons. That or I'm just weird. Maybe both.

Apostrophe misuse and homonym abuse push my buttons. That or I'm just weird. Maybe both.

No, you're not weird. In some circles, improper use of "it's" is grounds for justifiable homicide.

I'd like to meet these people.

LOL...

My Dad currently has 5 fish and 2 corals co-exisiting happily, so it can be done without a degree in Marine Biology. He did lose a couple of corals along the way though.

Saltwater tanks are beautiful........

Beautiful primer, too! It should go somewhere like the saltwater fish tank FAQ, ITIS.

Apostrophe misuse and homonym abuse push my buttons. That or I'm just weird. Maybe both.

Just so long as it doesn't cause you to loose your sense of humor.

A 20 gallon tank is pretty small for marine fish, most start with a 55 gallon on up. I don't think I would put more than a few fish in there. And letting the water sit for a few weeks is a very good idea, even for freshwater tanks.

I'm not gonna toss the fish in for a couple of weeks


You're still not quite comprehending the amount of patience required with regards to water quality. A couple of months to stabilise quality is more realistic, assuming that you don't have any major problems along the way. If you do, then you can easily add months to that time. People have been known to have to wait 6 months before adding fish, although that is extreme.

Powder Blue Tang is indeed a beautiful fish, but prefers larger tanks, 100G or so. It's also quite pricey at $50.
I'd recommend a Damsel to start - most are 'low maintenance', more tolerant of smaller tanks, and below $10. I'd also suggest looking at a clown and anemone, many varieties of which also fit the easy/small/cheap model. (Make sure that the anemone/clown pair that you choose are symbiotic...not all are).

anyone built solar panals for heating water my father waants to try it

The hot water in my dads house is mostly heated by the sun. When he built the house, he designed a small greenhouse to hold 2 water tanks. It gets very hot in there on sunny days. The two tanks he put in there he painted black. We still have a conventional hot water heater, and the two systems are integrated. The hot water heater doesn't need to work that much (or at all) if the water from the black tanks is already hot, thus conserving energy. But, if there are some cloudy days then we have the hot water heater to fall back on.

I was over at the house of someone who has a saltwater tank last night. It really is a beautiful thing. He's been doing it for years and years (over 15), and has a great setup. He has, I would guess, about 7 fish, 4 cleaner shrimp, and all kinds of aenemones (I have no idea how to spell that) and corals and such. he even has a heater/cooler in his attic that controls the temps in the tank.

My girlfriend, on the other hand, has one 6-inch long goldfish

Yeah i think a couple of weeks will be fine -- i was told i can add damsels right away. In all my research on this, both at stores and online, i've never heard of waiting two months to stabilize the water -- one month was the longest i had been told. Add with the addition of live sand and live rock, it cuts the time down even more. I'm sure its better to wait longer, but i guess i'm just a silly, impatient [censored].

The Blue Tangs around here only cost about $25 or so and they apparantly have no problem being in a 20 gallon aquarium, as long as there are only 2 or 3 other fish. Once it gets too large, i'll just take it out, sell it back to the store and buy a baby. Some of the tanks in these stores i've been to are as small as 10 gallons. This one place had a beautiful 10 gallon setup with a full reef and about 3 clown fish. Breathtaking.

My girlfriend, on the other hand, has one 6-inch long goldfish

Let me know if she would ever be willing to let it go. I can make a nice home for it in my 125gal tank

Haha. I doubt she'd want to. family pet and all that. They can't quite figure out how it got that big. They didn't do anything unusual. They did the same things before with previous goldfish, and they lived the average life of child pet fish (like a month at most). This time, randomly, they had two goldfish grow to about this size. One died and this one's still going. What causes this?

I was over at her house tonight, and I think from mouth to the end of its tail it's probably 7". I took some pictures and she'll be sending them to me, so I'll post them.

My sister won a goldfish from the state fair for her son. You know, the ones that die in a week or two? Well, this mutant ended up living for over a year. It got so big, it terrorized the other fish. They had to flush him because he started eating the other fish.

I wish I could've seen it, he sounded impressive

I had one that I won at a local fair by throwing the ping pong ball into the bowl live 10 years. If they live long enough they will grow to fit the tank size, the bigger the tank, the bigger they grow. I have 5 of them now in a 20 gallon tank that are about 5 years old. They started life as feeder fish, I rescued them

But I want to know what the trick is. I mean, why is it that they seem to live either a week or 3 years?

Usually if you keep them in an aquarium and not a bowl and treat them like any other tropical fish, meaning have plenty of filtration, air movement and change 1/2 the water monthly, but keep the water temperature lower, they will live for many years.

When I was a kid my grandmother used to keep a goldfish bowl for me. During the week when I wasn't there she would put them in a glass and wash the bowl out with soap and wonder why they would be dead when I came to visit on the weekends.

I'm actually kind of interested in this. Any good online sources for this type of equipment (cheap)?

I'm not a fan of cleaning, but I suppose I could do it if it meant something wouldn't die